OrangeManiac

https://www.twitch.tv/naranjamaniaco Streaming VGC again

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While I'm on the opinion that MixMence is a little bit too much for UU to handle, or at the very least needs very specific Pokemon to be dealt with, I still think it's a bit of a problem we have 4 UU discussion threats simultaneously open focusing on their role in the "current" UU tier. For example, P2 would be an excellent counter to Salamence if deemed worthy to be tested in UU. I don't have a strong opinion about P2 and I don't wanna derail the discussion towards that but I think some of the discussions probably need to be "resolved" before some of the new UU discussion can properly begin.

While Haxorus arguably has lesser counters than Salamence, there are so many ways where Salamence is far more diverse and useful Pokemon. Against "a team, unbothered by Salamence's existence" Salamence would achieve a lot of the work Haxorus would - however I must admit against teams dedicated of countering Salamence, it would have a tougher time shining than Haxorus did due to lack of Mold Breaker, worse attack and Superpower. But lack of counters shouldn't be the only defining factor when deciding if a Pokemon belongs to a tier or not, and never has been. A Pokemon may just be so good in so many ways that even when countered, the opportunity cost of using that Pokemon is so small that even when facing a team dedicated of countering you, it is still worth it playing that Pokemon. For me, Salamence falls to this category. I'm personally confident that even with more counters, it does too many things too well and what it lacks in physical attack power is compensated heavily with its mixed coverage, while also providing other valuable traits that would make Salamence a bit too easy pick for a variety of roles in UU environment.

I'm having very tough time understanding that with the precedent of Haxorus being doomed to BL after a disastrous attempt of testing it in UU that how on earth would you drop Salamence to UU even for a day.

Team Name: Solemn Promise Team Tag: [VOW] Registered Players: Suneet, Susume, Quuinn, Senjutsuka, OoExcoverOo, DRIDRIGOFK, Pottina, JeanMarcH, Crible, OrangeManiac, Imabetheverybest, CHUCKunso, Hysteriantics, Zigh, Sargeste Team Captain: OrangeManiac

Yeah but Unaware wall with all hazards is actually insane.

1. ... d5 2. c4 dxc4 Nidoqueen's Gambit accepted

Team Name: Solemn Promise Team Tag: [VOW] Registered Players: Sargeste, Hysteriantics, DridrigoFK, TohnR, StriderxD, HSNQX, Imabetheverybest, DocPBC, JeanMarcH, OrangeManiac, CHUCKunso, Senjutsuka, Crible, SweeTforU, Pottina Team Captain: OrangeManiac

While I definitely understand Xatu could eventually be recognized as a worthy OU Pokemon, its usage in the beginning has been so non-existing that I think you probably should rethink about this one. I know it's been only like 4-5 days but 0,26% usage is still very low and would be just over 1% if it was around for the whole month per this rate. Because it's barely 1/4th on its way to OU at its current usage, I think you should probably let it to UU for now.

Okay, so this is exactly what I mean. You make up your mind about things with extremely poor "evidence" and then it is impossible for you to conceptualize any countering viewpoints about anything. For you, it is enough to call something a joke because in the first ever VGC seasonal from the relatively small sample pool no one really wanted to utilize Mienshao. You consider that as enough proof to make ridiculously confident statements, which you would never make if you had played a game of Pokemon at any serious level. For you it is enough to disregard Mienshao because some player told you they don't want to use Mienshao over Hitmontop. For you, that is enough to make a case. It is impossible to argue with you because you accept poor logic as proof and refuse to discuss any legitimate counterpoints. That's why you shouldn't be in charge of a single community discussion thread whatsoever. I could go on a long tangent about explaining how disregarding Life Orb or Fighting Gem Mienshao shows your complete lack of understanding of the game but it's all besides the point. The key point is the level of confidence you have for absolutely god awful arguments.

I recognize one tournament is relatively small sample size but Crawdaunt seems really scary with that usage and winrate. I think if this keeps going for multiple tournaments, moving Crawdaunt to BL seems a reasonable call.

I am well aware of the clauses in VGC format. I qualified to the last Pokemon World Championships in VGC so I am well versed of the dynamics of 4v4 battles. You don't need to lecture me about VGC dynamics or attempt to feed me any bullshit that somehow item clause or 4v4 completely changes the viability ranking of a Pokemon. The fact you call Mienshao a "joke" in VGC format just tells me how completely clueless you are about both Doubles and the mechanics of 4v4. I don't really care for arguing with you, in any discussion you're just so stubborn there's no convincing you about anything and you argue a lot of things without having any clue what you're talking about. I couldn't care less about this thread on its own but if we're to develop VGC viability rankings to potentially improve VGC in MMO environment then it at least should be properly done. And it also should be run by a person who has some idea what they're doing, and someone who doesn't just state obvious facts without any substance.

Ah, read only the OP and skipped all the comments. Well, either way it's far better idea to base the rankings to MMO Dubs viability rankings and then slightly adjust if Pokemon does better/worse in 4v4 environment. For the most part the changes are very small, in VGC format matchup specific Pokemon are slightly better because you don't have to bring them to every game while Pokemon that do well in every battle aren't as needed. But even then, if a Pokemon is used only to counter specific matchups they cant be really above B ranks while very splashable Pokemon are generally A rank and higher, that's literally within the definition of those rankings even in "normal" Doubles. The sample size for this, even if it was a VGC specific event is so small you shouldn't draw any conclusions. Also, you can see the hype effect of new Pokemon in here as well. There is no way in million years Milotic is ranked higher than Rotom-Wash, but in this list Milotic is S while Rotom-W is B. And that's just one example..

What does this base on? Has there been an actual community attempt to viability rank PokeMMO VGC or are these just made up by you? Either way, I highly disagree at least half of these rankings.

Not really. It's not that Regenerator mons necessarily are overpowering competitively, it's just that we've went to the direction of pushing down the duration of tournaments with timer rules that might not accurately always predict the "real" winner of the battle but at the very least keeps the tournament going. So while we're trying to be time efficient, meanwhile we would be releasing one of the most central pieces to lengthy stall matches, which are Regenerator Pokemon - pushing our games more and more to what we clearly want to avoid so to me it seems a little bit contradictory in that sense. That's why I kinda think we should really be careful about what kind of hell we want to release to the competitive play in terms of Regenerator Pokemon because mirror matches of both team consisting multiple Regenerator Pokemon would be an absolute hell from tournament duration perspective. While you could make the argument we shouldn't artificially limit the Pokemon for our own convenience, I would also like to point out that our game is already severely lacking some of the offensive powerhouses in terms of legendaries that could shred through a hole to the Regen cores so in that sense we're already in a customized metagame so just because Regen stall exists elsewhere doesn't mean we should carelessly allow it here.

What's kind of important in this discussion are the Pokemon that have the ability. While Pokemon like Sand Veil Garchomp and Gliscor have potential to be very annoying, most Pokemon with these abilities are quite awful and aren't saved even with Evasion boosting ability. Only reason to ban everything at once is to avoid complex bans I guess (by flat banning/nullifying these abilities), which I think is an okay idea because the game doesn't really improve either by having these Evasion boosting abilities. So the main point of this discussion is if Sand Veil Garchomp and Gliscor are cancerous. (To be honest, I don't think so. Using these abilities is often just giving away far more reliable ability for them) So yeah, they are annoying but are they really overpowering and do they even have a positive opportunity cost by using them? Not really. You should never release Moody to begin with. Absolutely uncompetitive ability, even in its nerfed form. This makes no other sense to me besides preventing Serperior to gain Evasion boosts, which could be fixed by just preventing Contrary to give Evasion boosts (like, idk program that all +1-6 evasion to have same effect as 0). But why would you need to prevent lowering opposing evasion, seems like an unnecessary nerf when you could legitimately use that as a strategy to improve your chance of hitting low accuracy moves.

I mean, it already was decent in NU without Prankster and now switches in on physical attackers far better because it has priority Wisp available. I personally don't think it should be rated higher than NU but I can see it being very solid physical wall at least in NU environment, maybe I should have specified that but I heard there was some speculation Sableye could become UU (and it did until it was revised and sent back to NU). Edit: Or was that just a temporary Prankster ban until TC decided what to do, I cant remember

Alright I will edit OP to say Analytics Magneton has a wallbreaking niche.

Interesting, could you elaborate on this?

Honestly sure, why not. I thought people had learnt how they work by now but it wouldn't hurt to add them.

Hey everyone, I decided to make a beginner friendly guide to new players explaining the competitive impact of each new hidden ability. This will probably be eventually obsolete when it's replaced by an actual competitive guide when tiers settle but for many newer competitive players this time can be a complete mess and it might be difficult to understand which Pokemon had their viability significantly changed and why. The purpose of this guide is to help you understand should you update your Pokemon to have Hidden Ability or not. Pidgeot (Big Pecks) - Unviable. Not only is Pidgeot unviable to begin with, Big Pecks is just so incredibly niche ability because very rare moves are even dropping opponent's defense. It is hard to make a case it is even better than Keen Eye or Tangled Feet, even if you happen to be a Pidgeot fan. Nidoking and Nidoqueen (Sheer Force) - Absolutely role defining. If you paid any attention, you might have noticed that Nidoking jumped all the way from Untiered to OU/BL and Nidoqueen jumped from NU to UU and had its main role completely change. It is because Sheer Force is one of the best offensive abilities in the game, because getting that power boost over secondary effects is so useful. Nidos' movepools are also amazing and so many of its attacks have a secondary effect so they get boosted by Sheer Force. Crobat (Infiltrator) - An upgrade to Inner Focus for most sets in Singles, a downgrade to Inner Focus in Doubles. Having accessibility to hit through Substitutes and Screens is a great safety net to prevent getting completely swept by either a Substitute set up spammer or Screens Hyper offensive team and is often more valuable in singles than not getting flinched or not get Intimidated (as Crobat is already very fast and there isn't that many Intimidate Pokemon in Singles tiers). In Doubles, Intimidate and Fake Out is very common so Inner Focus remains supreme. Persian (Unnerve) - Unviable. A downgrade to Technician even if you happened to love this cat. Arcanine (Justified) - Unviable in Singles, has a very niche strategy in Doubles where you use your teammate to Beat Up Justified Pokemon to gain quick attack boosts. Rapidash (Flame Body) - Unless you play some very unorthodox defensive Rapidash set, Flash Fire is definitely superior to Flame Body on Rapidash which already is quite unviable in any tier. Magneton/Magnezone (Analytic) - Unviable. Magnezone and Magneton are about trapping, so you shouldn't drop Magnet Pull. Even if you wanted to pull off a weird gimmick, even Sturdy is better at that. Pinsir (Moxie) - Nice ability for Pinsir on a Choice Scarf set, which potentially could allow some late-game sweeps when HP gets low. In other sets, Mold Breaker is arguably better. Ditto (Impostor) - I don't probably need to spell this one out. Quagsire (Unaware) - Unaware made Quagsire potentially viable even in higher tiers to serve as a counter to physical set up sweepers by ignoring their boosts, which is nice. Qwilfish (Intimidate) - This hidden ability boosted Qwilfish physically defensive set in NU because Intimidate allows Qwilfish to switch in much easier against physical threats. Swift Swim still remains viable in low tier rain teams. Mantine (Water Veil) - Unviable. Rain sweeper Mantine should use Swift Swim and defensive Mantine should use Water Absorb. Breloom (Technician) - Very useful in some aggressive sets that focus on doing maximum damage with Mach Punch and Bullet Seed. For SubPunching, Poison Heal with Toxic Orb still remains useful. Sableye (Prankster) - Boosted Sableye's viability by A LOT in both Singles and Doubles. Having access to priority Will-o-Wisp, Recover and Taunt makes Sableye a very menacing wall in Singles. In Doubles, thanks to Prankster Sableye can be a very disruptive Pokemon by Will-o-Wisping physical attackers before they can attack, Tricking unwanted items on opponents, using Quash to force opponent's certain Pokemon to attack last, set up priority Sunny Day/Rain Dance, etc. Aggron (Heavy Metal) - Unviable. While technically Heavy Slam should do more damage with it now on average, still heavily inferior to Aggron's previous amazing abilities Rock Head and Sturdy. Roserade (Technician) - Very strong for offensive variants of Roserade by effectively boosting the power of Hidden Power from 60 to 90. Crawdaunt (Adaptability) - Absolutely game-defining. Changed Crawdaunt from absolute uselessness to one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the game. Staraptor (Reckless) - Improved Staraptor's Singles viability a lot by boosting the power of Brave Bird and Double-Edge from Staraptor and thus bumped it to OU/BL. In Doubles, inferior to Intimidate because Intimidate is one of the best abilities of Doubles. (Although Staraptor was quite mediocre in Doubles to begin with) Luxray (Guts) - Luxray used to be quite meh even in the lowest tier of NU but Guts gave it some potential to do something in there. Guts with Flame Orb is a very powerful strategy and Luxray definitely has the attack stat to start doing some heavy damage to its opponents. So ability is Pokemon-defining but can't guarantee it will be any great, even in NU. Floatzel (Water Veil) - In case you are using a physical Floatzel in a team that does not have rain set up, having protection from burn can be okay. But Floatzel is quite awful to begin with - the only reason before to use it was to have it in low tier Rain team with Swift Swim so in that sense, you shouldn't even use Floatzel outside of rain team to begin with. Technically can be useful but practically unviable. Lucario (Justified) - Same as Arcanine, in Doubles has a gimmick strategy where you use Beat Up on your own Pokemon to boost its attack heavily. Potentially strong strategy but very difficult to pull off and thus unreliable. In singles, inferior to Inner Focus. Watchog (Analytic) - Well, it is an update from Watchog's previous abilities (Illuminate and Keen Eye, both of which are some of the most useless abilities in the game). But Watchog is absolutely awful. Musharna (Telepathy) - Useful in a Doubles team that has lots of teammates that have attacks that target all the Pokemon on the field (such as Earthquake, Explosion, Surf, etc.) Will be updated as more HAs come.

I think moving Quagsire to UU is unnecessary. First of all, it's not broken in NU. It didn't really even improve all that much in NU - sure, there's a couple of Pokemon that kind of liked having Swords Dance buffs against Quagsire and now would be struggling a little bit (like Ninjask and Scyther) but most physical sweepers weren't even using Swords Dance to get through Quagsire in the first place. Whether Quagsire gets UU or OU usage at this point is just speculation. It definitely could but we don't know how the metagame is going to look in UU when the dust settles whether Quagsire's Unaware is really even needed in the tier. I would drop it to NU but then keep an eye if it starts to pick up any play in higher tiers. But it is definitely not Defensive Ubers in NU. Crawdaunt to me seems to belong to OU. It is already projected to be a solid wallbreaker in OU environment but in UU it can also serve as a very legitimate Dragon Dance/Swords Dance sweeper. Crawdaunt's 4 MSS is far more noticable in OU but in UU (besides Toxicroak) can achieve a ridiculous amount of work with just Water/Dark coverage. I feel like it invalidates defensive play in UU very unfairly but also in UU environment it has at least decent matchup against offensive teams whereas in OU its incredible wallbreaking power would be at least challenged by a negative matchup against hyper offensive teams.

I really think you guys should abandon usage as a means to create NU until this game is more stable. OU has such enormous amount of usage that even one month is enough to provide enough usage to create UU again. I think NU should be made manually from now on, just discuss with TC that what feels like needs to be NU or not and go with it. Using usage as a reference is fine, if usage shows that something was completely misplaced then I think it's fine to adjust accordingly but as the game is now, usage is almost meaningless for lower tiers because the fluctuation will be so rapid.

I think this is a positive thing for the game, if anything. Not overpowering at all, it just punishes things that have been obnoxious to begin with - like mindless Substitutes and nice that it is at least a small measure one can use against Screens teams in UU.