OrangeManiac

Thank you Rache for announcing this and super happy you are willing to give VGC a shot in our game. I also think it's extremely good for the Doubles community to know what's coming up and that we have clear direction where we are going. Many people could have been easily lost with the Doubles discussion earlier because it wasn't entirely clear what are we trying to achieve here - Smogon-esque Doubles tiering or are we moving towards VGC? I think it's awesome that the direction is now clear. Needless to say, any further actions to Doubles tiering are not needed because VGC by its nature bans only extreme cases (namely only Dark Void in a couple of generations). I am very much looking forward seeing VGC in our game and I hope it gives Doubles players some new light and enjoyment in this game and we no longer need to stress what needs to be done to improve the Doubles metagame. I really hope people can explore this new format for years to come and hopefully may introduce some players even to the (current) official competitive format.
 

Thank you Rache for announcing this and super happy you are willing to give VGC a shot in our game. I also think it's extremely good for the Doubles community to know what's coming up and that we have clear direction where we are going. Many people could have been easily lost with the Doubles discussion earlier because it wasn't entirely clear what are we trying to achieve here - Smogon-esque Doubles tiering or are we moving towards VGC? I think it's awesome that the direction is now clear. Needless to say, any further actions to Doubles tiering are not needed because VGC by its nature bans only extreme cases (namely only Dark Void in a couple of generations). I am very much looking forward seeing VGC in our game and I hope it gives Doubles players some new light and enjoyment in this game and we no longer need to stress what needs to be done to improve the Doubles metagame. I really hope people can explore this new format for years to come and hopefully may introduce some players even to the (current) official competitive format.
 

This is planned for a future update, likely within the next few months and replacing 6v6 doubles as the matchmaking and tournament format.
 
At the time of the above, the Covert Mantle flash will be reverted as we will be including an "open team sheet" mechanic for the new format which accomplishes the same goal. The flash will remain until then as removing it would be detrimental to the current doubles format.

Your approach to this sounds unnecessarily dramatic. I don't want this for the simple reason that if I ever have to play someone in Team Tournament that I have blocked, I don't want to be oblivious to the fact my opponent is standing in front of me while I don't see anyone in my screen.

As it stands, at the end of the month Spiritomb, Swampert, Haxorus and Scolipede will drop.

I think Spiritomb and Swampert will make excellent and necessary additions to the tier however I am firmly on the side of quick banning both Haxorus and Scolipede.

Scolipede was briefly tested in NU when it first recieved speed boost and it was unbelievably broken. It would sweep basically the entire metagame after a single boost, a boost that was actually relatively easy to get thanks to its decent defence. 
 
Haxorus as far as I'm aware has never been in NU so there isn't a precedent. That being said there is just simply no way this pokemon could be balanced in the tier. There are literally no counters for it. The mons most capable of taking a hit like steelix and golbat don't do enough in return and will get murked by sd sets.

If you would like to weigh in now is your chance to discuss.

I'm not sure why you brought up Doubles Jirachi as an example of a discussion getting stalled. I responded to the original concern in literally just one day and I threw a ball in the air whether people consider that Jirachi as a whole needs to be discussed or whether a combination of Jirachi +´Follow Me would be a reasonable approach to that discussion. If no one responds to that comment then I guess I have no choice but to draw my own conclusions and act accordingly. Because if I would do anything too hastily, then the community wasn't being heard.
 
Also, while criticizing TC is fine, I just don't think this is the time and place for it. If you dislike a decision, or lack of one, voice that in the discussion thread in question. That's only fair and I think the community should have every right to not only complain about each decision but also about the pace they are made in. But this thread right here is literally about just informing people TC is open for recruitment. It's this thing where whenever TC even gets mentioned it apparently opens the floodgates for some people that all the frustration you have had for past multiple years needs to be let out right here and right now.
 
In this particular case I find it even more odd - doesn't opening TC for recruitment just signal we recognize that improvements could be made? By the way, I personally 100% support the idea that each tier should have its own council. While I think it's completely fine even if some members are part of multiple councils but I do think individual TC members should have the right to focus on one tier and one tier only. This is partly the reason why I personally have now withdrawn from voting on TC decisions because there were too many tiers where I wasn't confident in my vote enough to have major tiering decisions come down to my vote, when I haven't played that tier in question for months. The reason why I personally decided to stick around was that there are very limited amount of individuals interested of being in TC while also having deep enough Doubles knowledge. So even from speaking personally, I'd be more than happy to be associated for one tier (or format) only, and let people enthusiastic of each tier be in charge of those tiers in question, as long as they are capable TC members in other ways.
 
But again, I just don't think this thread is the time and place. There absolutely can be and should be a discussion thread about the state of TC as a whole more constructively and I think options like multiple councils should be evaluated thoroughly. To whoever who has a deep vision about how tiering and/or Tier Council should work, go and make a well-reasoned thread about it, I guess? Heck, back in like 2014 I made this thread where I explained why I think individual tier councils for each tier are needed and it became the standard policy for next multiple (like 3-4?) years. So yeah, they will hear your idea out, as long as it's the right place.
 

In order to be accepted to TC to begin with, you probably need to be aware of how tiering and discussion threads in PokeMMO work, right? I find it pretty ridiculous you need to give some kind of pre-warning as if potential TC candidates didn't have their own opportunity to draw any conclusion they wish from reading existing discussions, as if reading existing things wasn't a requirement to begin with. The people who see no hope of this system ever working, won't be applying. 
 
What you're doing right now is like standing outside of a football stadium of a team, asking fans not to go watch the games of that team. And when asked to leave the venue, you start to wonder why you are being silenced. Oh gee, I wonder why.
 
 
I don't know where you get the idea as if you know about this magical system any more than the people who are running it - furthermore where do you get the idea what can or cannot change in the future? This kind of "this system will forever be broken" attitude just screams defeatism and kinda signals that you don't even want to work together improving things, just enjoy complaining.
 
 
Whatever staff wants the primary channel for their discussion to be is their decision. While I don't necessarily object to having a "public side TC Discord" available, I don't think TC members should be primarily asked to voice their opinions there and only there. It is absolutely needed the TC members can share their ideas and visions before having to make their opinions public because whatever you post you know you get a dozen pings of community members trying to tear your argument to bits. Having a private channel and a public channel for discussion is absolutely needed, whatever that channel is goes for staff to decide. What I will say is that forums primarily at least expects some kind of structured posting of ideas where as Discord by its nature is very "free-form", which I don't think is a good think to share high quality ideas. But again, no one but staff's decision of what channels to use.

I'm not sure why you brought up Doubles Jirachi as an example of a discussion getting stalled. I responded to the original concern in literally just one day and I threw a ball in the air whether people consider that Jirachi as a whole needs to be discussed or whether a combination of Jirachi +´Follow Me would be a reasonable approach to that discussion. If no one responds to that comment then I guess I have no choice but to draw my own conclusions and act accordingly. Because if I would do anything too hastily, then the community wasn't being heard.
 
Also, while criticizing TC is fine, I just don't think this is the time and place for it. If you dislike a decision, or lack of one, voice that in the discussion thread in question. That's only fair and I think the community should have every right to not only complain about each decision but also about the pace they are made in. But this thread right here is literally about just informing people TC is open for recruitment. It's this thing where whenever TC even gets mentioned it apparently opens the floodgates for some people that all the frustration you have had for past multiple years needs to be let out right here and right now.
 
In this particular case I find it even more odd - doesn't opening TC for recruitment just signal we recognize that improvements could be made? By the way, I personally 100% support the idea that each tier should have its own council. While I think it's completely fine even if some members are part of multiple councils but I do think individual TC members should have the right to focus on one tier and one tier only. This is partly the reason why I personally have now withdrawn from voting on TC decisions because there were too many tiers where I wasn't confident in my vote enough to have major tiering decisions come down to my vote, when I haven't played that tier in question for months. The reason why I personally decided to stick around was that there are very limited amount of individuals interested of being in TC while also having deep enough Doubles knowledge. So even from speaking personally, I'd be more than happy to be associated for one tier (or format) only, and let people enthusiastic of each tier be in charge of those tiers in question, as long as they are capable TC members in other ways.
 
But again, I just don't think this thread is the time and place. There absolutely can be and should be a discussion thread about the state of TC as a whole more constructively and I think options like multiple councils should be evaluated thoroughly. To whoever who has a deep vision about how tiering and/or Tier Council should work, go and make a well-reasoned thread about it, I guess? Heck, back in like 2014 I made this thread where I explained why I think individual tier councils for each tier are needed and it became the standard policy for next multiple (like 3-4?) years. So yeah, they will hear your idea out, as long as it's the right place.
 

I'm not sure why you brought up Doubles Jirachi as an example of a discussion getting stalled. I responded to the original concern in literally just one day and I threw a ball in the air whether people consider that Jirachi as a whole needs to be discussed or whether a combination of Jirachi +´Follow Me would be a reasonable approach to that discussion. If no one responds to that comment then I guess I have no choice but to draw my own conclusions and act accordingly. Because if I would do anything too hastily, then the community wasn't being heard.
 
Also, while criticizing TC is fine, I just don't think this is the time and place for it. If you dislike a decision, or lack of one, voice that in the discussion thread in question. That's only fair and I think the community should have every right to not only complain about each decision but also about the pace they are made in. But this thread right here is literally about just informing people TC is open for recruitment. It's this thing where whenever TC even gets mentioned it apparently opens the floodgates for some people that all the frustration you have had for past multiple years needs to be let out right here and right now.
 
In this particular case I find it even more odd - doesn't opening TC for recruitment just signal we recognize that improvements could be made? By the way, I personally 100% support the idea that each tier should have its own council. While I think it's completely fine even if some members are part of multiple councils but I do think individual TC members should have the right to focus on one tier and one tier only. This is partly the reason why I personally have now withdrawn from voting on TC decisions because there were too many tiers where I wasn't confident in my vote enough to have major tiering decisions come down to my vote, when I haven't played that tier in question for months. The reason why I personally decided to stick around was that there are very limited amount of individuals interested of being in TC while also having deep enough Doubles knowledge. So even from speaking personally, I'd be more than happy to be associated for one tier (or format) only, and let people enthusiastic of each tier be in charge of those tiers in question, as long as they are capable TC members in other ways.
 
But again, I just don't think this thread is the time and place. There absolutely can be and should be a discussion thread about the state of TC as a whole more constructively and I think options like multiple councils should be evaluated thoroughly. To whoever who has a deep vision about how tiering and/or Tier Council should work, go and make a well-reasoned thread about it, I guess? Heck, back in like 2014 I made this thread where I explained why I think individual tier councils for each tier are needed and it became the standard policy for next multiple (like 3-4?) years. So yeah, they will hear your idea out, as long as it's the right place.
 

Going into the new season we will be looking for a couple of new members, you can apply by DMing me here on forums with your interest and any accolades you might feel relevant.
 
Some things we are looking for/requirement to be a member of TC:
People active in tier discussion threads, it is a requirement to being able to have a vote.
In game activity, TC members are required to have a minimum of 30 matches a month in Ranked Matchmaking/Tournaments/PSL(on trial), you have to manually submit these matches to me on discord.
A discord presence for discussions amongst TC.
 
If you have any questions you can ask here,
 

Very legitimate concern. We've had Pokemon in Doubles that before was close to being "too much value in one party slot" but I truly believe Jirachi might have stepped over that line. Follow Me already is such a powerful tool in Doubles and when it's on a Pokemon that can do a trillion other things, there's a problem. Follow Me is in fact so good that it allows Pokemon to be used that otherwise would be borderline unviable. Heck, I don't think it would be a reach to say that other Follow Me Pokemon besides Jirachi wouldn't be even played in Doubles if they didn't get access for that move. This list includes Togekiss, Blastoise, Electabuzz, etc.
 
So I agree Jirachi potentially might have too much going for it right now and in a way, it renders other redirection Pokemon borderline useless unless you want to use multiple. The opportunity cost of using Jirachi is always very small where as something like Blastoise or Togekiss may feel in many matchups like a deadweight but Follow Me being the only reason to even consider them for that team. And this effect is even larger to the more niche Follow Me Pokemon.
 
If we were to discuss Jirachi, there would be two options. 1) Discuss banning Jirachi altogether 2) Discuss banning Follow Me from Jirachi. I'd say in normal circumstances, discussing complex bans in Doubles makes very little sense whatsoever. This could potentially be that rare exception, though. There has been proven record of Jirachi in Smogon Doubles competitive play and Jirachi getting Follow Me was pretty much the thing pushing Jirachi from DOU to DUbers. Furthermore, it is an "event move". Normally, removing "a part of a Pokemon" may feel a little bit arbitrary but it is hard to define is Follow Me actually part of what Jirachi is because it has existed with it for a limited time, due to that move being only event move. Sure, the standard in MMO is to give all Pokemon event moves but this is when there's no risk that Pokemon being banworthy with that move. So in a way, Follow Me Jirachi and non-Follow Me Jirachi are both canon.
 
So I think this is one of the rare instances where discussing that Jirachi shouldn't get its event move Follow Me could be a reasonable approach to the situation, in my opinion. I think the point of discussion is that is Jirachi "unhealthy" in Doubles environment because it is 1) too much value in 1 Pokemon 2) it renders other Follow Me Pokemon almost unviable because before Jirachi people had large teambuilding variety in their Follow Me Pokemon slot.
 
Would love to hear other opinions but I agree this absolutely deserves a discussion thread and deeper community discussion.
 

Very legitimate concern. We've had Pokemon in Doubles that before was close to being "too much value in one party slot" but I truly believe Jirachi might have stepped over that line. Follow Me already is such a powerful tool in Doubles and when it's on a Pokemon that can do a trillion other things, there's a problem. Follow Me is in fact so good that it allows Pokemon to be used that otherwise would be borderline unviable. Heck, I don't think it would be a reach to say that other Follow Me Pokemon besides Jirachi wouldn't be even played in Doubles if they didn't get access for that move. This list includes Togekiss, Blastoise, Electabuzz, etc.
 
So I agree Jirachi potentially might have too much going for it right now and in a way, it renders other redirection Pokemon borderline useless unless you want to use multiple. The opportunity cost of using Jirachi is always very small where as something like Blastoise or Togekiss may feel in many matchups like a deadweight but Follow Me being the only reason to even consider them for that team. And this effect is even larger to the more niche Follow Me Pokemon.
 
If we were to discuss Jirachi, there would be two options. 1) Discuss banning Jirachi altogether 2) Discuss banning Follow Me from Jirachi. I'd say in normal circumstances, discussing complex bans in Doubles makes very little sense whatsoever. This could potentially be that rare exception, though. There has been proven record of Jirachi in Smogon Doubles competitive play and Jirachi getting Follow Me was pretty much the thing pushing Jirachi from DOU to DUbers. Furthermore, it is an "event move". Normally, removing "a part of a Pokemon" may feel a little bit arbitrary but it is hard to define is Follow Me actually part of what Jirachi is because it has existed with it for a limited time, due to that move being only event move. Sure, the standard in MMO is to give all Pokemon event moves but this is when there's no risk that Pokemon being banworthy with that move. So in a way, Follow Me Jirachi and non-Follow Me Jirachi are both canon.
 
So I think this is one of the rare instances where discussing that Jirachi shouldn't get its event move Follow Me could be a reasonable approach to the situation, in my opinion. I think the point of discussion is that is Jirachi "unhealthy" in Doubles environment because it is 1) too much value in 1 Pokemon 2) it renders other Follow Me Pokemon almost unviable because before Jirachi people had large teambuilding variety in their Follow Me Pokemon slot.
 
Would love to hear other opinions but I agree this absolutely deserves a discussion thread and deeper community discussion.
 

Very legitimate concern. We've had Pokemon in Doubles that before was close to being "too much value in one party slot" but I truly believe Jirachi might have stepped over that line. Follow Me already is such a powerful tool in Doubles and when it's on a Pokemon that can do a trillion other things, there's a problem. Follow Me is in fact so good that it allows Pokemon to be used that otherwise would be borderline unviable. Heck, I don't think it would be a reach to say that other Follow Me Pokemon besides Jirachi wouldn't be even played in Doubles if they didn't get access for that move. This list includes Togekiss, Blastoise, Electabuzz, etc.
 
So I agree Jirachi potentially might have too much going for it right now and in a way, it renders other redirection Pokemon borderline useless unless you want to use multiple. The opportunity cost of using Jirachi is always very small where as something like Blastoise or Togekiss may feel in many matchups like a deadweight but Follow Me being the only reason to even consider them for that team. And this effect is even larger to the more niche Follow Me Pokemon.
 
If we were to discuss Jirachi, there would be two options. 1) Discuss banning Jirachi altogether 2) Discuss banning Follow Me from Jirachi. I'd say in normal circumstances, discussing complex bans in Doubles makes very little sense whatsoever. This could potentially be that rare exception, though. There has been proven record of Jirachi in Smogon Doubles competitive play and Jirachi getting Follow Me was pretty much the thing pushing Jirachi from DOU to DUbers. Furthermore, it is an "event move". Normally, removing "a part of a Pokemon" may feel a little bit arbitrary but it is hard to define is Follow Me actually part of what Jirachi is because it has existed with it for a limited time, due to that move being only event move. Sure, the standard in MMO is to give all Pokemon event moves but this is when there's no risk that Pokemon being banworthy with that move. So in a way, Follow Me Jirachi and non-Follow Me Jirachi are both canon.
 
So I think this is one of the rare instances where discussing that Jirachi shouldn't get its event move Follow Me could be a reasonable approach to the situation, in my opinion. I think the point of discussion is that is Jirachi "unhealthy" in Doubles environment because it is 1) too much value in 1 Pokemon 2) it renders other Follow Me Pokemon almost unviable because before Jirachi people had large teambuilding variety in their Follow Me Pokemon slot.
 
Would love to hear other opinions but I agree this absolutely deserves a discussion thread and deeper community discussion.
 

Very legitimate concern. We've had Pokemon in Doubles that before was close to being "too much value in one party slot" but I truly believe Jirachi might have stepped over that line. Follow Me already is such a powerful tool in Doubles and when it's on a Pokemon that can do a trillion other things, there's a problem. Follow Me is in fact so good that it allows Pokemon to be used that otherwise would be borderline unviable. Heck, I don't think it would be a reach to say that other Follow Me Pokemon besides Jirachi wouldn't be even played in Doubles if they didn't get access for that move. This list includes Togekiss, Blastoise, Electabuzz, etc.
 
So I agree Jirachi potentially might have too much going for it right now and in a way, it renders other redirection Pokemon borderline useless unless you want to use multiple. The opportunity cost of using Jirachi is always very small where as something like Blastoise or Togekiss may feel in many matchups like a deadweight but Follow Me being the only reason to even consider them for that team. And this effect is even larger to the more niche Follow Me Pokemon.
 
If we were to discuss Jirachi, there would be two options. 1) Discuss banning Jirachi altogether 2) Discuss banning Follow Me from Jirachi. I'd say in normal circumstances, discussing complex bans in Doubles makes very little sense whatsoever. This could potentially be that rare exception, though. There has been proven record of Jirachi in Smogon Doubles competitive play and Jirachi getting Follow Me was pretty much the thing pushing Jirachi from DOU to DUbers. Furthermore, it is an "event move". Normally, removing "a part of a Pokemon" may feel a little bit arbitrary but it is hard to define is Follow Me actually part of what Jirachi is because it has existed with it for a limited time, due to that move being only event move. Sure, the standard in MMO is to give all Pokemon event moves but this is when there's no risk that Pokemon being banworthy with that move. So in a way, Follow Me Jirachi and non-Follow Me Jirachi are both canon.
 
So I think this is one of the rare instances where discussing that Jirachi shouldn't get its event move Follow Me could be a reasonable approach to the situation, in my opinion. I think the point of discussion is that is Jirachi "unhealthy" in Doubles environment because it is 1) too much value in 1 Pokemon 2) it renders other Follow Me Pokemon almost unviable because before Jirachi people had large teambuilding variety in their Follow Me Pokemon slot.
 
Would love to hear other opinions but I agree this absolutely deserves a discussion thread and deeper community discussion.
 

Very legitimate concern. We've had Pokemon in Doubles that before was close to being "too much value in one party slot" but I truly believe Jirachi might have stepped over that line. Follow Me already is such a powerful tool in Doubles and when it's on a Pokemon that can do a trillion other things, there's a problem. Follow Me is in fact so good that it allows Pokemon to be used that otherwise would be borderline unviable. Heck, I don't think it would be a reach to say that other Follow Me Pokemon besides Jirachi wouldn't be even played in Doubles if they didn't get access for that move. This list includes Togekiss, Blastoise, Electabuzz, etc.
 
So I agree Jirachi potentially might have too much going for it right now and in a way, it renders other redirection Pokemon borderline useless unless you want to use multiple. The opportunity cost of using Jirachi is always very small where as something like Blastoise or Togekiss may feel in many matchups like a deadweight but Follow Me being the only reason to even consider them for that team. And this effect is even larger to the more niche Follow Me Pokemon.
 
If we were to discuss Jirachi, there would be two options. 1) Discuss banning Jirachi altogether 2) Discuss banning Follow Me from Jirachi. I'd say in normal circumstances, discussing complex bans in Doubles makes very little sense whatsoever. This could potentially be that rare exception, though. There has been proven record of Jirachi in Smogon Doubles competitive play and Jirachi getting Follow Me was pretty much the thing pushing Jirachi from DOU to DUbers. Furthermore, it is an "event move". Normally, removing "a part of a Pokemon" may feel a little bit arbitrary but it is hard to define is Follow Me actually part of what Jirachi is because it has existed with it for a limited time, due to that move being only event move. Sure, the standard in MMO is to give all Pokemon event moves but this is when there's no risk that Pokemon being banworthy with that move. So in a way, Follow Me Jirachi and non-Follow Me Jirachi are both canon.
 
So I think this is one of the rare instances where discussing that Jirachi shouldn't get its event move Follow Me could be a reasonable approach to the situation, in my opinion. I think the point of discussion is that is Jirachi "unhealthy" in Doubles environment because it is 1) too much value in 1 Pokemon 2) it renders other Follow Me Pokemon almost unviable because before Jirachi people had large teambuilding variety in their Follow Me Pokemon slot.
 
Would love to hear other opinions but I agree this absolutely deserves a discussion thread and deeper community discussion.
 

Very legitimate concern. We've had Pokemon in Doubles that before was close to being "too much value in one party slot" but I truly believe Jirachi might have stepped over that line. Follow Me already is such a powerful tool in Doubles and when it's on a Pokemon that can do a trillion other things, there's a problem. Follow Me is in fact so good that it allows Pokemon to be used that otherwise would be borderline unviable. Heck, I don't think it would be a reach to say that other Follow Me Pokemon besides Jirachi wouldn't be even played in Doubles if they didn't get access for that move. This list includes Togekiss, Blastoise, Electabuzz, etc.
 
So I agree Jirachi potentially might have too much going for it right now and in a way, it renders other redirection Pokemon borderline useless unless you want to use multiple. The opportunity cost of using Jirachi is always very small where as something like Blastoise or Togekiss may feel in many matchups like a deadweight but Follow Me being the only reason to even consider them for that team. And this effect is even larger to the more niche Follow Me Pokemon.
 
If we were to discuss Jirachi, there would be two options. 1) Discuss banning Jirachi altogether 2) Discuss banning Follow Me from Jirachi. I'd say in normal circumstances, discussing complex bans in Doubles makes very little sense whatsoever. This could potentially be that rare exception, though. There has been proven record of Jirachi in Smogon Doubles competitive play and Jirachi getting Follow Me was pretty much the thing pushing Jirachi from DOU to DUbers. Furthermore, it is an "event move". Normally, removing "a part of a Pokemon" may feel a little bit arbitrary but it is hard to define is Follow Me actually part of what Jirachi is because it has existed with it for a limited time, due to that move being only event move. Sure, the standard in MMO is to give all Pokemon event moves but this is when there's no risk that Pokemon being banworthy with that move. So in a way, Follow Me Jirachi and non-Follow Me Jirachi are both canon.
 
So I think this is one of the rare instances where discussing that Jirachi shouldn't get its event move Follow Me could be a reasonable approach to the situation, in my opinion. I think the point of discussion is that is Jirachi "unhealthy" in Doubles environment because it is 1) too much value in 1 Pokemon 2) it renders other Follow Me Pokemon almost unviable because before Jirachi people had large teambuilding variety in their Follow Me Pokemon slot.
 
Would love to hear other opinions but I agree this absolutely deserves a discussion thread and deeper community discussion.
 

That's fair. I just wanted to make this all clear that I personally never wanted hidden Cloak to exist to begin with. I wasn't exactly thrilled of the accusations like I made this request on a whim but rather I wanted it to be known this is what I've been saying for 1,5 years. But I do think this is one of those calls where the community's opinion as a whole should absolutely matter over whatever I think or feel personally. That's why I said 
 
 
Lastly - we need to remember we're all living in our own bubbles especially what becomes to Doubles. In my personal bubble, people did feel that Covert Cloak being hidden is harmful. Because this represented pretty much the whole Doubles community to me at this point, I got the idea that people just don't like hidden Cloak but I will happily accept if there in fact is more people who enjoy it over hating it. 
 
This is pretty much the first big Doubles related discussion since the Sleep Clause. I do think we should open a discussion where everyone can weigh in and if it seems like by and large people enjoy hidden Cloak then that's completely fine as far as I'm concerned. I think I can be and should be open about the fact what comes to Tier Council and any Doubles related discussion, it's just about on the hands of 1-2 people and I do not think any decision like this should go on the hands of 1-2 people regardless what I feel about the matter.

For me, you should leave the item as it is, as is and FakeOut too. The difference would be in Item Spam, where only one item of each type can be used in the team. This would change the dynamics of double battles even more, it would make the covert cloack not very strong and not even the Fake Out. Fake Out is already impossible to be used all the time, it can only be used when it enters the field and this is already something that makes it "predictable".

For me, DB had to have an item restriction, so that the same item could not be repeated in the team... I think this would provide a nice balance not only in this case but, in general.

You can still do that though, for any other items. 
 
I feel like Doubles in PokeMMO is in this awkward spot where it borrows core gameplay mechanics from different formats. It seems hard to agree on what should be the PokeMMO Doubles experience because of this - and this discussion is nice to have. 
The flashing mechanic, even if "fan-made", does make sense, for King's Rock and Quick Claw it gives more autonomy to the player, obviously because of the item reveal but also because these 2 items rely on RNG to be good, flashing something that makes strategies % to succeed is essentially removing the "unealthy" and not fun to play against aspect of gambling by making the risks of that gambling known - since Cloyster nerf, we generally accept them as it's not super strong. 
 
Flashing is a good mechanic for that reason (nerfing uncompetitive strategies while allowing their niche usage), I think, and maybe the discussion should stay on whether the unealthiness of Covert Mantle is resolved by that mechanic or if it shall be resolved in another way, but from the arguments people brought up on the effects of it, it does "nerf" the unealthy part of the item while keeping its main use. I think the arguments in favor of "no flashing" should indeed be arguments on why this item is healthy as is or unhealthy for the metagame at all. 

Hide it. Speculating items is also a part of the strategy in PVP.

The Covert Mantle has clearly proven to be a strong item in the Doubles metagame, especially seeing use on Zapdos & Whimiscott in particular. Whilst this item is largely used to prevent Fake Out from flinching the Pokemon, an immunity to secondary effects has great value (eg: immunity to stat drop, status etc.).
 
Largely, the issue (and that has already been discussed in Atlewis’ & Nuzlocked’s posts) is this combination of bluffing Zapdos’ item makes it too strong for our current metagame. When the Covert Mantle isn’t flashed, you are essentially forced to acknowledge that Zapdos can hold the Covert Mantle. This allows for the player to bluff their item, for example, a Zapdos can run an Electric Gem, and players will be hesistant to click Fake Out, giving Zapdos users a Covert Cloak by proxy. This can win Doubles games on Turn 1 with how powerful positioning can be using this item.
 
Flashing the Covert Mantle is definitely a healthy change for the Doubles metagame that doesn’t diminish the value of this item in my opinion. (However, I can definitely understand the arguments made in this thread that item bluffing is a key component of Pokemon battling, in both Singles and Doubles.)
 
Of note, a few posts have noted that the Covert Cloak only exists in the VGC metagame, where an item clause and open team sheet exists. The only relevant metagame with a hidden Covert Cloak is Gen 9 / SV Doubles OU (DOU). This metagame is not remotely comparable to the current metagame we have, given the broader variety of Pokemon available, Mechanics such as Terastalisation. Moreover, any comparisons between Singles and Doubles regarding the Covert Mantle are largely nonsensical. The Covert Mantle is the most used item on the most used Pokemon (Zapdos) in the Doubles Metagame. There is very limited to no usage of the item in Singles and this should not be the focus of this thread.

I was actually one of the biggest proponents of covert cloak being addressed, initially I suggested it be complex banned on Zapdos, but I was told by the parties in power that they were  against it so me and others opted for it to flash instead; not exactly what I wanted but I certainly think that it was better than leaving it as is. Here are a few compelling reasons I think flashing it is certainly healthier for the meta and makes the most sense:

First, as has been stated many times already, covert cloak was released in an open team sheet format, therefore having it flash is more in-line with how it behaves gameplay-wise in the traditional games.
Second, in my opinion the most compelling reason, is that for pokemon that commonly hold covert cloak, it is essentially like holding 1.5 items. I saw Gb mention opportunity cost with item selection, and I think that is a great thing to  bring up but not for  the reason he stated. Covert cloaks main purpose is to prevent fake out. The most common time to use fake out is turn 1. If you are wrong about a mon not having cloak and try to fake it out, you can lose the game on the spot. Therefore, any experienced player will never risk it turn 1, allowing common cloak users to hold another item entirely, such as a gem or berry, while still getting the main benefit of covert cloak. Obviously, once you confirm the item is/isn't covert cloak you can plan accordingly, but nothing (other than Frisk) changes that turn 1 implication. Also, players can swap around whenever they want, so if you confirm they have cloak in one game, but then the next game they switch to a different item to trick you, it adds this really weird metagaming to the tier which I don't like at all.
Third, covert cloak not flashing makes Zapdos way too strong. It was already the best mon in the tier, and having a not flashing covert cloak makes it broken in my opinion, largely for the above reason. Zapdos with cloak already has little-to-no counter play, and with a hidden cloak it just makes it even scarier which is certainly unhealthy. After playing with it after the change it still feels broken even with the flash.
Gb did bring up an interesting point about there being an overreliance on fake out in doubles, but fake out is honestly the backbone of the tier, and a very healthy one. It is one of the  only moves that can always be relied on (no one will fake out inner focus mons) and it is integral for board positioning. Adding versatility to it is fun for no one, and lowering the moves viability also isn't healthy to the tier.

Overall, for these reasons I think having cloak flash is definitely MORE healthy than having it stay hidden if those are the only options, and talks about banning it or complex banning it can be brought up down the road if needed.

What to know?
 
Covert Mantle is a newly introduced item, resembling Covert Cloak that was introduced in Generation 9. Its effect says that it prevents any secondary effects happening to the holder. While on the surface level this item might seem niche at best, it is actually quite game-changing in Double Battles. This is mostly due to Fake Out being arguably the strongest move of Doubles by having a 100% flinch as a secondary effect. With Covert Mantle, a Pokemon may completely ignore Fake Out flinch. Other uses for this item is to avoid speed drops from Electroweb/Icy Wind and being a general RNG blocker to a Pokemon.
 
What is the issue?
 
The issue is that Fake Out has been such a fundamental mechanic of Double Battles as long as Double Battles has existed. It is not a reach to say Fake Out is probably the best move in Doubles. Fake Out's capability to effectively "stun" a Pokemon completely for one turn (unless Protected) has been a key strategy in Double Battles always. In a way, Fake Out is one of the most distinctive mechanics of Double Battles and Fake Out positioning wars is one of the elements people immediately think of relating to Double Battles.
 
Isn't nerfing Fake Out fair?
 
That is a good question and it is really up to preference. Fake Out, indeed, is very strong. In terms of general balancing, nerfing something that is already strong usually seems like a reasonable suggestion. It is not a bad idea to suggest that punishing one of the strongest moves in the game with a surprise counter-tech could be in fact good for the game. However, I would like to bring up two counter-arguments to this.
 
1) Fake Out "balances" board positions and creates structure
 
With Fake Out, you can bring an opponent's strong position to a temporary halt. In Double Battles, it is relatively easy to snowball with the game if your two Pokemon on the field has a stronghold over the opponent's two Pokemon. Fake Out usually forces people to play with long-term plans due to this "temporary roadblock" and forces a more strategic approach to the game, although of course, this all is just my subjective opinion.
 
2) Fake Out is distinctive to the experience of Double Battles
 
This is more of a subjective point, but Fake Out being good is what makes Doubles what it is. Doubles already may feel like a somewhat chaotic experience to many but Fake Out has given its flavor, its strategic nature. It's what many Doubles players feel Doubles should be.
 
In short, Fake Out being good, or even "overpowering" as a whole could be seen as a positive thing to Doubles, rather than a negative thing. This all, however, is just subjective and something we are looking forward to hear you analyze about this.
 
 
Last update - From hidden to "flashing" when entering the battle
 
A change was made to Covert Mantle in the last update. With this, opponent will immediately know when opponent has a Covert Mantle, so this item no longer catches a player by surprise. This is to resemble in a way Gen 9 VGC's "open team sheet" environment with Covert Cloak. PokeMMO had already utilized the idea of flashing items in cases where an item being hidden would be uncompetitive or unfair (for example, with King's Rock). This means a player may now dodge Fake Out if they so wish with Covert Mantle (and it does technically nerf Fake Out a little bit) but may not gain effectively gain a free turn from it, which they could if Covert Mantle was hidden from opponent. So rather than being allowed to protect yourself from Fake Outs, you were allowed to effectively gain a surprise momentum shift with Covert Mantle pre-update. Getting a completely free turn from Fake Out not flinching can cause a very big snowball effect, especially with strong set up sweepers. This arguably was the most damaging effect of hidden Covert Mantle in Double Battles and a problem which the flashing effect came to solve some degree. It still allowed Covert Mantle to remain a viable item with a relevant purpose but removed its potentially "cheesy" effect.
 
 
What we want to know?
 
What is your experience with Covert Mantle? Do you think Double Battles is better with Covert Mantle? If so, do you think Covert Mantle should be hidden to allow to catch people off guard? Or is it fair that Doubles Players are alerted of Covert Mantle existing, to prevent Fake Outing into "nothing"? We're looking forward in hearing your opinions.

What to know?
 
Covert Mantle is a newly introduced item, resembling Covert Cloak that was introduced in Generation 9. Its effect says that it prevents any secondary effects happening to the holder. While on the surface level this item might seem niche at best, it is actually quite game-changing in Double Battles. This is mostly due to Fake Out being arguably the strongest move of Doubles by having a 100% flinch as a secondary effect. With Covert Mantle, a Pokemon may completely ignore Fake Out flinch. Other uses for this item is to avoid speed drops from Electroweb/Icy Wind and being a general RNG blocker to a Pokemon.
 
What is the issue?
 
The issue is that Fake Out has been such a fundamental mechanic of Double Battles as long as Double Battles has existed. It is not a reach to say Fake Out is probably the best move in Doubles. Fake Out's capability to effectively "stun" a Pokemon completely for one turn (unless Protected) has been a key strategy in Double Battles always. In a way, Fake Out is one of the most distinctive mechanics of Double Battles and Fake Out positioning wars is one of the elements people immediately think of relating to Double Battles.
 
Isn't nerfing Fake Out fair?
 
That is a good question and it is really up to preference. Fake Out, indeed, is very strong. In terms of general balancing, nerfing something that is already strong usually seems like a reasonable suggestion. It is not a bad idea to suggest that punishing one of the strongest moves in the game with a surprise counter-tech could be in fact good for the game. However, I would like to bring up two counter-arguments to this.
 
1) Fake Out "balances" board positions and creates structure
 
With Fake Out, you can bring an opponent's strong position to a temporary halt. In Double Battles, it is relatively easy to snowball with the game if your two Pokemon on the field has a stronghold over the opponent's two Pokemon. Fake Out usually forces people to play with long-term plans due to this "temporary roadblock" and forces a more strategic approach to the game, although of course, this all is just my subjective opinion.
 
2) Fake Out is distinctive to the experience of Double Battles
 
This is more of a subjective point, but Fake Out being good is what makes Doubles what it is. Doubles already may feel like a somewhat chaotic experience to many but Fake Out has given its flavor, its strategic nature. It's what many Doubles players feel Doubles should be.
 
In short, Fake Out being good, or even "overpowering" as a whole could be seen as a positive thing to Doubles, rather than a negative thing. This all, however, is just subjective and something we are looking forward to hear you analyze about this.
 
 
Last update - From hidden to "flashing" when entering the battle
 
A change was made to Covert Mantle in the last update. With this, opponent will immediately know when opponent has a Covert Mantle, so this item no longer catches a player by surprise. This is to resemble in a way Gen 9 VGC's "open team sheet" environment with Covert Cloak. PokeMMO had already utilized the idea of flashing items in cases where an item being hidden would be uncompetitive or unfair (for example, with King's Rock). This means a player may now dodge Fake Out if they so wish with Covert Mantle (and it does technically nerf Fake Out a little bit) but may not gain effectively gain a free turn from it, which they could if Covert Mantle was hidden from opponent. So rather than being allowed to protect yourself from Fake Outs, you were allowed to effectively gain a surprise momentum shift with Covert Mantle pre-update. Getting a completely free turn from Fake Out not flinching can cause a very big snowball effect, especially with strong set up sweepers. This arguably was the most damaging effect of hidden Covert Mantle in Double Battles and a problem which the flashing effect came to solve some degree. It still allowed Covert Mantle to remain a viable item with a relevant purpose but removed its potentially "cheesy" effect.
 
 
What we want to know?
 
What is your experience with Covert Mantle? Do you think Double Battles is better with Covert Mantle? If so, do you think Covert Mantle should be hidden to allow to catch people off guard? Or is it fair that Doubles Players are alerted of Covert Mantle existing, to prevent Fake Outing into "nothing"? We're looking forward in hearing your opinions.

I don't think this game needs more custom changes like the flashing effect which creates inconsistencies, I am aware that there are already custom changes but I think the problem are those custom changes we have which should be removed after a solution is found for every single one of them.
 
Now, if I have to choose between a metagame with or without Covert Mantle, I prefer one with Covert Mantle, I think all this comes down to preference. I read the post, I understand that this creates a more aggressive environment in the Doubles metagame and that it's is harder to escape from a bad position in Doubles than in Singles if Fake Out is no longer as affective as before. I personally find that as bad to some degree but I don't think this should be a reason to ban the item, the Doubles metagame already involves the use of some RNG based moves like Muddy Water, Air Slash, Heat Wave or Iron Head and I think that it's good to have a reliable counterplay to those thanks to Covert Mantle, I also like that we can finally having some counterplay to Fake Out apart from Inner Focus mons.
 
This said, while I prefer having the item in the tier I wouldn't mind if it was banned because I think it's reasonable that some may not like the effect this item causes in the metagame.