OrangeManiac

So first things first obviously this change was mainly for the doubles meta game but inherently Covert Mantle was introduced for the doubles meta game being that even in Gen 9 OU Covert is hardly used in OU. Of course the item still had a niche in singles but in most cases I would argue that a different item would be more consistent and/or stronger on most Pokemon that could use it. 

Now for the doubles meta game I agree with everything JeanMarc said above since I don't want to completely parrot him. This item is truly the pinnacle of gen 9 power creep. Everything can use this with great success with very little counter play. Due to the nature of Doubles being a fast pace metagame on top of Covert Mantle making the game even faster now that Fake out spam can no longer slow down games. Getting one Fake out turn can be so catastrophic that it can truly lose you the game in a single turn. Unlike items like the choice items, Focus Sash, AV etc. that are being brought up this item truly has no downside. Set up sweeper like Garchomp? Covert Mantle now I don't have to play Fake out/Feint 50s. Tailwind user? I don't have to worry about Fake out stopping my speed control or turns within speed control. Trick Room setter? Same as above. I think the currently player has only used a fraction of what this item truly can be. The most oppressive lead in the game prior to Covert Mantle was Mienshao and Crobat due to their abilities in Inner Focus now I can achieve the same thing with literally any Pokemon I want. I still believe this item as a whole was a mistake to add for the Doubles meta game but at least now there is some counter play/no surprise factor from a random Covert Mantle Pokemon in the mid to end game. 

The biggest thing is even with the nerf Covert Mantle still does what it would like to do in stopping Fake out on those certain Pokemon and in some cases stopping Snarl or more, This item will still easily be one of the best item to use on Zapdos, Amoonguss, Garchomp, etc. Just now there is counter play to some of the lesser known Pokemon that can abuse this item. To me this is a good change even if I would rather have the item not exist in the first place.  

Covert mantle for me made mons like Zapdos, which already feels like it should be in every single team even stronger because you always have to play like it had covert mantle even if it only carried it say 50% of the time but it gave it an invisible buff, can't waste a turn to fake out it and then it turns out to be covert and tailwinds and yeah you're a mile behind now.

Every fake out mon for dubs I believe dropped a tier or two in viability when this item was first added.

This item has never existed officially outside of SV and that has open team sheets so it was exactly the same there as it is here (for covert mantle)

Even though it's outside of the discussion if we had ots here also I'd be fine obviously with it not flashing then the singles guys would be happy also, but as it is I'd rather it fully banned from dubs without flashing.

Covert Mantle isn't really comparable to the other items mentioned in the thread.
 
Which Pokemon would use a Focus Sash? Pokemon that would be typically KO'd in one hit. That's easy to identify: those are Pokemon that are frail, have a 4x weakness, or both. Item knowledge makes it easy to figure out.
 
Mental Herb? They're Pokemon that will get hurt the most from getting Taunted, which typically are going to be support Pokemon. Easy to figure out with experience too.
 
Covert Mantle? Pokemon that don't want to get Faked Out. What kind of Pokemon would want to avoid getting Faked Out?
-Speed Control Pokemon really enjoy it to make sure that they can set up the speed control.
-Tailwind/Trick Room sweepers really enjoy it because one of the most common ways to stall out speed control is by using Fake Out on the big threats
-Even redirection users enjoy Covert Mantle because Faking Out the redirection user and hitting the Pokemon next to it is one of the best ways to play around redirection.
Basically, if a Pokemon learns a useful move, it's a good Covert Mantle user. Enough game knowledge will tell you that even if it might not be the best item for that Pokemon, it still remains a viable candidate for it.
 
The biggest advantage of Covert Mantle isn't the surprise factor that comes from the opponent wasting their Fake Out: it comes from the fact that momentum is preserved by making Fake Out an useless option into the Covert Mantle user either way.
 
Most people in the thread have talked about the pros of the guessing game that come from Covert Mantle not being flashed, but the thing is, most good players build to minimize guessing games as much as they can. If one of their favorite tools become something that can turn into a guessing game every time that they try to use it, they'll just switch to something that's more reliable. Which in this case is typically shutting my brain off and clicking the big damage move, which ironically enough, is exactly the type of playstyle using Covert Cloak enables anyway.
 
Flashing the item at least gives some form of reliability to Fake Out, while still giving Covert Mantle the primary use that it's supposed to have: maintain momentum again a move that's trying to slow down the tempo. Even the comparison given in the OP, Gen 9 VGC, doesn't even have that bad of a problem in closed teamsheets because Item Clause means that people have a good idea of where the Covert Cloak is going to be, making a mechanic like flashing much more pointless.
 
The existence of Covert Mantle already enables people to play more aggressively if they choose to do so, flashing the item makes it so its best counterplay isn't also to play more aggressively.

What to know?
 
Covert Mantle is a newly introduced item, resembling Covert Cloak that was introduced in Generation 9. Its effect says that it prevents any secondary effects happening to the holder. While on the surface level this item might seem niche at best, it is actually quite game-changing in Double Battles. This is mostly due to Fake Out being arguably the strongest move of Doubles by having a 100% flinch as a secondary effect. With Covert Mantle, a Pokemon may completely ignore Fake Out flinch. Other uses for this item is to avoid speed drops from Electroweb/Icy Wind and being a general RNG blocker to a Pokemon.
 
What is the issue?
 
The issue is that Fake Out has been such a fundamental mechanic of Double Battles as long as Double Battles has existed. It is not a reach to say Fake Out is probably the best move in Doubles. Fake Out's capability to effectively "stun" a Pokemon completely for one turn (unless Protected) has been a key strategy in Double Battles always. In a way, Fake Out is one of the most distinctive mechanics of Double Battles and Fake Out positioning wars is one of the elements people immediately think of relating to Double Battles.
 
Isn't nerfing Fake Out fair?
 
That is a good question and it is really up to preference. Fake Out, indeed, is very strong. In terms of general balancing, nerfing something that is already strong usually seems like a reasonable suggestion. It is not a bad idea to suggest that punishing one of the strongest moves in the game with a surprise counter-tech could be in fact good for the game. However, I would like to bring up two counter-arguments to this.
 
1) Fake Out "balances" board positions and creates structure
 
With Fake Out, you can bring an opponent's strong position to a temporary halt. In Double Battles, it is relatively easy to snowball with the game if your two Pokemon on the field has a stronghold over the opponent's two Pokemon. Fake Out usually forces people to play with long-term plans due to this "temporary roadblock" and forces a more strategic approach to the game, although of course, this all is just my subjective opinion.
 
2) Fake Out is distinctive to the experience of Double Battles
 
This is more of a subjective point, but Fake Out being good is what makes Doubles what it is. Doubles already may feel like a somewhat chaotic experience to many but Fake Out has given its flavor, its strategic nature. It's what many Doubles players feel Doubles should be.
 
In short, Fake Out being good, or even "overpowering" as a whole could be seen as a positive thing to Doubles, rather than a negative thing. This all, however, is just subjective and something we are looking forward to hear you analyze about this.
 
 
Last update - From hidden to "flashing" when entering the battle
 
A change was made to Covert Mantle in the last update. With this, opponent will immediately know when opponent has a Covert Mantle, so this item no longer catches a player by surprise. This is to resemble in a way Gen 9 VGC's "open team sheet" environment with Covert Cloak. PokeMMO had already utilized the idea of flashing items in cases where an item being hidden would be uncompetitive or unfair (for example, with King's Rock). This means a player may now dodge Fake Out if they so wish with Covert Mantle (and it does technically nerf Fake Out a little bit) but may not gain effectively gain a free turn from it, which they could if Covert Mantle was hidden from opponent. So rather than being allowed to protect yourself from Fake Outs, you were allowed to effectively gain a surprise momentum shift with Covert Mantle pre-update. Getting a completely free turn from Fake Out not flinching can cause a very big snowball effect, especially with strong set up sweepers. This arguably was the most damaging effect of hidden Covert Mantle in Double Battles and a problem which the flashing effect came to solve some degree. It still allowed Covert Mantle to remain a viable item with a relevant purpose but removed its potentially "cheesy" effect.
 
 
What we want to know?
 
What is your experience with Covert Mantle? Do you think Double Battles is better with Covert Mantle? If so, do you think Covert Mantle should be hidden to allow to catch people off guard? Or is it fair that Doubles Players are alerted of Covert Mantle existing, to prevent Fake Outing into "nothing"? We're looking forward in hearing your opinions.

What to know?
 
Covert Mantle is a newly introduced item, resembling Covert Cloak that was introduced in Generation 9. Its effect says that it prevents any secondary effects happening to the holder. While on the surface level this item might seem niche at best, it is actually quite game-changing in Double Battles. This is mostly due to Fake Out being arguably the strongest move of Doubles by having a 100% flinch as a secondary effect. With Covert Mantle, a Pokemon may completely ignore Fake Out flinch. Other uses for this item is to avoid speed drops from Electroweb/Icy Wind and being a general RNG blocker to a Pokemon.
 
What is the issue?
 
The issue is that Fake Out has been such a fundamental mechanic of Double Battles as long as Double Battles has existed. It is not a reach to say Fake Out is probably the best move in Doubles. Fake Out's capability to effectively "stun" a Pokemon completely for one turn (unless Protected) has been a key strategy in Double Battles always. In a way, Fake Out is one of the most distinctive mechanics of Double Battles and Fake Out positioning wars is one of the elements people immediately think of relating to Double Battles.
 
Isn't nerfing Fake Out fair?
 
That is a good question and it is really up to preference. Fake Out, indeed, is very strong. In terms of general balancing, nerfing something that is already strong usually seems like a reasonable suggestion. It is not a bad idea to suggest that punishing one of the strongest moves in the game with a surprise counter-tech could be in fact good for the game. However, I would like to bring up two counter-arguments to this.
 
1) Fake Out "balances" board positions and creates structure
 
With Fake Out, you can bring an opponent's strong position to a temporary halt. In Double Battles, it is relatively easy to snowball with the game if your two Pokemon on the field has a stronghold over the opponent's two Pokemon. Fake Out usually forces people to play with long-term plans due to this "temporary roadblock" and forces a more strategic approach to the game, although of course, this all is just my subjective opinion.
 
2) Fake Out is distinctive to the experience of Double Battles
 
This is more of a subjective point, but Fake Out being good is what makes Doubles what it is. Doubles already may feel like a somewhat chaotic experience to many but Fake Out has given its flavor, its strategic nature. It's what many Doubles players feel Doubles should be.
 
In short, Fake Out being good, or even "overpowering" as a whole could be seen as a positive thing to Doubles, rather than a negative thing. This all, however, is just subjective and something we are looking forward to hear you analyze about this.
 
 
Last update - From hidden to "flashing" when entering the battle
 
A change was made to Covert Mantle in the last update. With this, opponent will immediately know when opponent has a Covert Mantle, so this item no longer catches a player by surprise. This is to resemble in a way Gen 9 VGC's "open team sheet" environment with Covert Cloak. PokeMMO had already utilized the idea of flashing items in cases where an item being hidden would be uncompetitive or unfair (for example, with King's Rock). This means a player may now dodge Fake Out if they so wish with Covert Mantle (and it does technically nerf Fake Out a little bit) but may not gain effectively gain a free turn from it, which they could if Covert Mantle was hidden from opponent. So rather than being allowed to protect yourself from Fake Outs, you were allowed to effectively gain a surprise momentum shift with Covert Mantle pre-update. Getting a completely free turn from Fake Out not flinching can cause a very big snowball effect, especially with strong set up sweepers. This arguably was the most damaging effect of hidden Covert Mantle in Double Battles and a problem which the flashing effect came to solve some degree. It still allowed Covert Mantle to remain a viable item with a relevant purpose but removed its potentially "cheesy" effect.
 
 
What we want to know?
 
What is your experience with Covert Mantle? Do you think Double Battles is better with Covert Mantle? If so, do you think Covert Mantle should be hidden to allow to catch people off guard? Or is it fair that Doubles Players are alerted of Covert Mantle existing, to prevent Fake Outing into "nothing"? We're looking forward in hearing your opinions.

To be fair, even I prefer to hide mantle but flashing the item is still good. 
From my experience with double, hiding mantle is a cool because my oppo have to take care if he can fake out or not, make the game harder, still mantle should be use  on the same mon so people with experience can adapt as well 
might change a little the meta but idk about this people are not enough active to make change. The actual meta seem's fun
Fake out stay a strong mecanic on the tier
it doens't make trickroom that much stronger as we have taunt to counter and the opposite trickroom use can't fake out easily as well to set up  
I apologise for my english, hope you understand everything 

I'm of the opinion that setting Covert Mantle to flash upon entry makes the item entirely fair. What's the opinion on the mechanic in the general VGC community?
 
It feels strange to me that people are arguing against having the item flash when even in VGC it has never *not* been known to be present in official play.

What to know?
 
Covert Mantle is a newly introduced item, resembling Covert Cloak that was introduced in Generation 9. Its effect says that it prevents any secondary effects happening to the holder. While on the surface level this item might seem niche at best, it is actually quite game-changing in Double Battles. This is mostly due to Fake Out being arguably the strongest move of Doubles by having a 100% flinch as a secondary effect. With Covert Mantle, a Pokemon may completely ignore Fake Out flinch. Other uses for this item is to avoid speed drops from Electroweb/Icy Wind and being a general RNG blocker to a Pokemon.
 
What is the issue?
 
The issue is that Fake Out has been such a fundamental mechanic of Double Battles as long as Double Battles has existed. It is not a reach to say Fake Out is probably the best move in Doubles. Fake Out's capability to effectively "stun" a Pokemon completely for one turn (unless Protected) has been a key strategy in Double Battles always. In a way, Fake Out is one of the most distinctive mechanics of Double Battles and Fake Out positioning wars is one of the elements people immediately think of relating to Double Battles.
 
Isn't nerfing Fake Out fair?
 
That is a good question and it is really up to preference. Fake Out, indeed, is very strong. In terms of general balancing, nerfing something that is already strong usually seems like a reasonable suggestion. It is not a bad idea to suggest that punishing one of the strongest moves in the game with a surprise counter-tech could be in fact good for the game. However, I would like to bring up two counter-arguments to this.
 
1) Fake Out "balances" board positions and creates structure
 
With Fake Out, you can bring an opponent's strong position to a temporary halt. In Double Battles, it is relatively easy to snowball with the game if your two Pokemon on the field has a stronghold over the opponent's two Pokemon. Fake Out usually forces people to play with long-term plans due to this "temporary roadblock" and forces a more strategic approach to the game, although of course, this all is just my subjective opinion.
 
2) Fake Out is distinctive to the experience of Double Battles
 
This is more of a subjective point, but Fake Out being good is what makes Doubles what it is. Doubles already may feel like a somewhat chaotic experience to many but Fake Out has given its flavor, its strategic nature. It's what many Doubles players feel Doubles should be.
 
In short, Fake Out being good, or even "overpowering" as a whole could be seen as a positive thing to Doubles, rather than a negative thing. This all, however, is just subjective and something we are looking forward to hear you analyze about this.
 
 
Last update - From hidden to "flashing" when entering the battle
 
A change was made to Covert Mantle in the last update. With this, opponent will immediately know when opponent has a Covert Mantle, so this item no longer catches a player by surprise. This is to resemble in a way Gen 9 VGC's "open team sheet" environment with Covert Cloak. PokeMMO had already utilized the idea of flashing items in cases where an item being hidden would be uncompetitive or unfair (for example, with King's Rock). This means a player may now dodge Fake Out if they so wish with Covert Mantle (and it does technically nerf Fake Out a little bit) but may not gain effectively gain a free turn from it, which they could if Covert Mantle was hidden from opponent. So rather than being allowed to protect yourself from Fake Outs, you were allowed to effectively gain a surprise momentum shift with Covert Mantle pre-update. Getting a completely free turn from Fake Out not flinching can cause a very big snowball effect, especially with strong set up sweepers. This arguably was the most damaging effect of hidden Covert Mantle in Double Battles and a problem which the flashing effect came to solve some degree. It still allowed Covert Mantle to remain a viable item with a relevant purpose but removed its potentially "cheesy" effect.
 
 
What we want to know?
 
What is your experience with Covert Mantle? Do you think Double Battles is better with Covert Mantle? If so, do you think Covert Mantle should be hidden to allow to catch people off guard? Or is it fair that Doubles Players are alerted of Covert Mantle existing, to prevent Fake Outing into "nothing"? We're looking forward in hearing your opinions.

Very honest reply man, thanks for that. If I sounded like I was blaming you for the whole thing I would like to apologize to you as I didn't mean to be offensive to you in particular.
I mostly meant the process in general was flawed (adding an extra item that was not in the game and then making some sort of tweak so it's not broken).
I know TC did what they could as well, cheers.

That's fair. I just wanted to make this all clear that I personally never wanted hidden Cloak to exist to begin with. I wasn't exactly thrilled of the accusations like I made this request on a whim but rather I wanted it to be known this is what I've been saying for 1,5 years. But I do think this is one of those calls where the community's opinion as a whole should absolutely matter over whatever I think or feel personally. That's why I said 
 
 
Lastly - we need to remember we're all living in our own bubbles especially what becomes to Doubles. In my personal bubble, people did feel that Covert Cloak being hidden is harmful. Because this represented pretty much the whole Doubles community to me at this point, I got the idea that people just don't like hidden Cloak but I will happily accept if there in fact is more people who enjoy it over hating it. 
 
This is pretty much the first big Doubles related discussion since the Sleep Clause. I do think we should open a discussion where everyone can weigh in and if it seems like by and large people enjoy hidden Cloak then that's completely fine as far as I'm concerned. I think I can be and should be open about the fact what comes to Tier Council and any Doubles related discussion, it's just about on the hands of 1-2 people and I do not think any decision like this should go on the hands of 1-2 people regardless what I feel about the matter.

That's fair. I just wanted to make this all clear that I personally never wanted hidden Cloak to exist to begin with. I wasn't exactly thrilled of the accusations like I made this request on a whim but rather I wanted it to be known this is what I've been saying for 1,5 years. But I do think this is one of those calls where the community's opinion as a whole should absolutely matter over whatever I think or feel personally. That's why I said 
 
 
Lastly - we need to remember we're all living in our own bubbles especially what becomes to Doubles. In my personal bubble, people did feel that Covert Cloak being hidden is harmful. Because this represented pretty much the whole Doubles community to me at this point, I got the idea that people just don't like hidden Cloak but I will happily accept if there in fact is more people who enjoy it over hating it. 
 
This is pretty much the first big Doubles related discussion since the Sleep Clause. I do think we should open a discussion where everyone can weigh in and if it seems like by and large people enjoy hidden Cloak then that's completely fine as far as I'm concerned. I think I can be and should be open about the fact what comes to Tier Council and any Doubles related discussion, it's just about on the hands of 1-2 people and I do not think any decision like this should go on the hands of 1-2 people regardless what I feel about the matter.

That's fair. I just wanted to make this all clear that I personally never wanted hidden Cloak to exist to begin with. I wasn't exactly thrilled of the accusations like I made this request on a whim but rather I wanted it to be known this is what I've been saying for 1,5 years. But I do think this is one of those calls where the community's opinion as a whole should absolutely matter over whatever I think or feel personally. That's why I said 
 
 
Lastly - we need to remember we're all living in our own bubbles especially what becomes to Doubles. In my personal bubble, people did feel that Covert Cloak being hidden is harmful. Because this represented pretty much the whole Doubles community to me at this point, I got the idea that people just don't like hidden Cloak but I will happily accept if there in fact is more people who enjoy it over hating it. 
 
This is pretty much the first big Doubles related discussion since the Sleep Clause. I do think we should open a discussion where everyone can weigh in and if it seems like by and large people enjoy hidden Cloak then that's completely fine as far as I'm concerned. I think I can be and should be open about the fact what comes to Tier Council and any Doubles related discussion, it's just about on the hands of 1-2 people and I do not think any decision like this should go on the hands of 1-2 people regardless what I feel about the matter.

I think you're taking my quote a little bit out of context there. The point was that it's not metagame relevant, therefor making changes will not cause notable metagame shifts in Singles. Individual people might get affected by it and that's of course unfortunate. No decision can be made without some individual losing something.
 
But as far as I'm concerned, Cloak should have been implemented to flash immediately right away or not implemented at all and that was my stance since I brought this conversation up almost 1,5 years ago.
 
But again, if majority of Doubles playerbase now feels hidden Cloak is better for the game then obviously that should be the decision this game goes with.
 
 

Even when Covert Cloak was suggested, it was discussed this item probably needs to flash to not be gamebreaking.
 
Also @razimove where did you get the idea I didn't ask for a community thread first for this? Seems a little bit bad faith to assume that way.
 

You're correct, I assumed you guys just took the initiative. My bad fam

Well in VGC you have access to their sheet and see their items beforehand. I hate to take the side of dubs but this item is so huge for dubs, comparative to how niche it is as an item in singles.. Banning it would be like banning idk something like life orb in OU I suppose

(I don't honestly understand any of this above just thought it fits this guide)
 
The guide to customized EV spreads
 
Introduction
 
Deciding EV spreads appears to be one of the most common hurdles to new competitive players and it's not hard to see why. EV spreads are the most customisable and most fine-tunable things in Pokemon teambuilding and it's easy to get "paralyzed" with the overwhelming amount of options you can have with them. As a matter of fact, I'd argue this complexity is the main reason why I would argue people would go for 252/252 spreads. You don't have to think about it too much and it focuses your Pokemon at a specific role. Keep in mind, this is not necessarily bad. In fact, I would argue in many cases maxing out a Pokemon in two stats can be the most productive thing you can do with a Pokemon. However, it is generally a good idea to explore some other options as well in terms of EV spreads and after scrapping any alternative ideas, you may consider just min-maxing a Pokemon.
 
I want to point out that my background lately has been mostly in VGC and Double battles, so that obviously is going to affect on my perspective. A lot of the ideas that I use are something that many high level VGC players also consider when building EV spreads. However, I would argue you could use these ideas equally as well in singles. The point of this guide is not to give you answers, it is to develop the correct mindset to build and develop EV spreads and challenge you to think about your EV spreads more creatively and precisely.
 
 
How do EVs work?
 
Basics
 
To talk about building EV spreads, it is good to start with the very basics - how do EVs work? The very basic idea is that at level 100, 4 EVs will raise a Pokemon's stat by 1. At level 50, in which PokeMMO is played, 8 EVs will raise a Pokemon's stat by 1. There's a small caveat to this at level 50, though. If your IV is an ODD number (for example 31 IV), first 4 EVs will raise a stat by 1. Then they will raise every 8 EVs. In other words, with 31 IV you will get a stat boost at 4/12/20/28/36.... EVs (maxing at 252). With EVEN IV, for example 30 IV you will get a stat boost at 8/16/24/32/40.... EVs. This effectively results being unable to max out your stat unless you have a 31 IV. Having 30 IV is acceptable if you are not going to put any EVs in the stat (as 30 and 31 with 0 EVs have the same stat) but when putting any EV investment, having a sub-31 IV will negatively affect you.
 
 
Boosted nature
 
Boosted nature will slightly alter how EVs affect to stats. Without a boosting nature, 8 more EVs will always result in 1 additional stat. However, if you are investing EVs in a stat which is already boosted by nature, at some points you will gain 2 stats instead of one with 8 EVs. In VGC, I sometimes call these "EV bumps" (taken from Barry Anderson who I heard to use this term the first time) This is a tiny optimization that can be useful to keep in mind when developing EV spreads. I demonstrated this below with pictures.
 

 
Normally, 8 additional EVs will give you 1 additional stat. However, sometimes you will get 2 additional stats like shown below.
 

 
Here you can see with 8 more EVs you were able to get 2 more stats. In these cases, it can be justifiable to insert EVs until you hit the spot where you get 2 stats instead of 1. Typically, there are 3 times between 0 and 252 EVs where you get this small EV bump. In some rare cases (depending of a base stat), this may also happen 4 times. It is a very tiny optimization but if you don't have any other idea (and dont want to 252/252 a Pokemon) then investing into multiple stats by hitting the EVs of your boosted nature into this EV bump can be a good idea.
 
 
 
Reasons for a customized EV spread
 
I will start out by saying that there is not - and cannot be - any definitive list of things you could keep in mind when developing an EV spread. It is always metagame dependent and for some Pokemon, building custom spreads can feel like an impossible task. "I cannot beat everything with 508 EVs" is a problem many players struggle with and it is easy to see why. In terms of EVs, you always have to make compromises. For me, there is still some list of priorities that I always keep in mind when developing EV spreads. These may very depending of your team, the metagame and the role but I've discovered this checklist in most cases works pretty well for me.
 
1. What do I have to outspeed?
2. What do I want to outspeed?
3. What attack do I have to survive?
4. What KO would I prefer to have?
5. Is putting EVs into "what I want to outspeed" taking too many EVs out of what I want to survive or what I want to KO?
6. Does this all align with what I want from this Pokemon?
 
In short, this is the list of priorities I keep in mind when building EV spreads. In Pokemon, going first is important (especially with offensive Pokemon). If you think about it, the power levels in Pokemon are generally pretty high. Many Pokemon are capable of one-shotting other Pokemon if they have a super effective attack. Attacking first in many cases can be the difference being +1 or -1 at Pokemon count. If you think about it, that can be an effective difference of two Pokemon. This is why you need to figure out what are the Pokemon you absolutely have to outspeed and prioritize that in your EV spread. In some cases, you may have a very defensive Pokemon that does not care about outspeeding anything and focuses on survivability. In these case you can completely skip this part.
 
There's a difference between "having to" outspeed something and "wanting to" outspeed something. The first one is a must, the second one is a preference that can come up useful in some particular scenarios. Those however do not often dictate the winner of the battle. It is important to figure out which Pokemon are useful to outspeed and keep them in mind but also be ready to accept if you can't.
 
The next thing to consider is what attack do you have to survive in order to improve your matchup against a specific Pokemon. We tend to talk about Pokemon as "offensive" and "defensive" Pokemon but every Pokemon in the game has some defensive utility. Every Pokemon is capable of living at least something. It is important to figure out if some defensive investment can guarantee you living an attack that otherwise can become detrimental to you. Investing into a guaranteed survival can be the difference of having a strong retaliation against opponent or just getting straight up KO'd.
 
It is also important to know if there is some specific OHKO or 2HKO you want to hit. If you can achieve this with offensive investment, it is good to keep in mind. However, I would not usually start EV spread from this as barely missing out on a KO can be acceptable in many cases.
 
Lastly, evaluate your EV spread in total. Which are the priorities for me? Is outspeeding something not-so-important going to take away too much of my offensive or defensive capabilities? If so, you may shift the focus a little bit and invest in what you truly consider important for this Pokemon.
 
Again, by no means, is this a definitive checklist. But more often than not I recommend to start going through potential EV spreads from this order.
 
 
 
Investing EVs into high stats or into low stats?
 
One question people often also consider is when is it good to invest into low stats and when is it good to invest in high stats. These obviously vary, so let me provide some examples. The most common example of investing into low stats is Chansey. A Bold Chansey with no EVs in defense has a defense stat of 27, while 252 EVs in defense gives Chansey a stat of 62. You have more than doubled your stat with 252 EVs and given Chansey far more noticable physical defense. Now Chansey can at least take some attacks physically. This is the most obvious case where investing into low stats is a good idea. Investing EVs into low stats has a far greater impact on the stat than investing into a high stat. However, in case of offensive Pokemon investing into high stats can also make sense. While 0 Attack EVs Garchomp reaches 150 attack and 252 attack EVs Garchomp reaches 182 attack, it can often determine whether Garchomp had enough power to get a KO. While the stat difference is less noticable in this case, it doesn't mean it's not valuable. So in short, it varies. However, it is important to keep in mind that EVs will technically give a more significant boost when invested in low stats, and this is an idea I recommend to explore when building EV spreads.
 
HP EVs or defense EVs?
 
Other question people ask a lot is "should I invest into HP or defenses" when I want more bulk? In this case, it also varies. Generally, investing the same amount of EVs in HP is better than defenses - however this is not true if your base HP stat is very high and base defenses are low. I will provide two examples of where it is good to invest in HP and where it is good to invest in defenses.
 

 
Lanturn has a very high base HP but very mediocre defenses. This is one of the cases where investing into defenses may make more sense. Providing examples with calcs below.
 
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 124 SpD Lanturn: 85-102 (42.5 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 Atk Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Lanturn: 127-151 (63.5 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 
 
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lanturn: 100-118 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 Atk Mienshao Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 153-181 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 
 
The difference is extremely minor but if you look at it, 124 Defense + 124 Sp Defense makes Lanturn take slightly less damage in total compared having 252 HP. I'd say Lanturn is kind of a good benchmark Pokemon for this dilemma. If Pokemon has higher base HP than Lanturn and low defense, it is a good idea to explore whether investing into defenses is better. However, in vast majority of the cases investing into HP is better.
 
 
 

 
Dragonite is an example of a Pokemon where its base HP and base Defense and Special Defense are near equal.
 
 
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 79-94 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
252 Atk Tauros Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 76-91 (38.3 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
 
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 124 SpD Dragonite: 70-84 (42.1 - 50.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO 
252 Atk Tauros Return vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Dragonite: 67-81 (40.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
 
 
In this case, it is quite evident that investing 252 HP rather than putting those EVs into defenses is a much better idea when providing defensive utility for the Pokemon. In vast majority of cases you should focus on HP investment.
 
 
 
Optimizing for HP fractions
 
One additional optimization you have for EVs is to select the exact HP stat you want. This most often comes into play when increasing Leftovers recovery or reducing Flame Orb damage. For example, a Conkeldurr with 208 HP stat would take 13 HP damage from Flame Orb burn each turn. With 207 HP stat, Conkeldurr would only take 12 HP damage each turn from burn. Over the course of multiple turns, this slight 1 HP difference could add up and taking slightly less damage each turn could be game-changing. Investing EVs into HP to purposely be 1 stat under next HP burn damage may be optimal. In other way around, adding more HP to gain 1 point from Leftovers could also potentially be an option to explore.
 
 
Prime numbers
 
This is an area I haven't explored a lot personally but VGC players have gone quite in-depth about this. What they discovered is that having defense stats that are prime numbers is generally a good idea and results in lower damage, probably due to how the game handles fractions. I haven't researched too much into how big of an effect these will have but out of habit from VGC community, if I don't have any better idea I might set my defense stats into prime numbers because apparently this may have a positive effect.
 
 
Conclusion
 
Even though EV spreads may seem like a small an insignificant part of your team composition, it may have a very big effect on the overall composition of your team. Designing EV spreads allows you to discover the metagame, learn the common calcs and forces you to think which Pokemon are you beating and which Pokemon are you not. That's why I highly recommend using some of these tips in this guide to make you think how can I improve my team to the fullest where I feel like every stat is what I want it to be. Thanks for reading.

(This guide is finished and may be moved to the main section)
 

Overview:
The current UU tier has had notable changes recently, with the release of the BL banlist back to UU as well as many long-standing OU Pokemon falling in usage and dropping to UU. In this newly established UU metagame, Lucario has come off on top in many different ways. It is sitting on top of UU usage with very notable 36% usage and very respectable 55% winrate. Lucario has many of the traits of a premier sweeper. It is reasonably fast with base 90 speed, has very respectable 110 Atk/115 Sp. Atk for offense and also has access to useful priority moves to punish Pokemon that are faster than Lucario. Lucario has access to a very diverse movepool when needed, albeit Lucario often results doing a lot of its heavy lifting with powerful STAB moves.

Effect to the metagame:
Lucario has already demonstrated it is clearly one of the premiere sweepers in the UU tier. While it is common for some Pokemon becoming clearly the best at their role within a metagame, Lucario has done this to a somewhat worrying extent. Furthermore, countering Lucario has become quite of a problem for newly established UU teambuilders. The clearest and the most concerning part about Lucario's effect in the metagame is unpredictability. It is enormously hard, if not almost impossible, to bring up counters that will counter Lucario regardless of its moveset. Many of the counters to Lucario's physical set will fall to its special set and counters to its special set will have trouble taking on a physical Lucario. The unpredictability of Lucario's build forces countering to rely in cores rather than individual Pokemon, which arguably may put a problematic amount of restraint in UU teambuilding. It must be mentioned that Lucario in a full on hyper offensive sweeper battle might not even be such a valuable Pokemon due to its rather mediocre base speed for a sweeper in UU environment. However, relying on outspeeding Lucario with too many threats while also not taking too much damage from Lucario's priority attacks can also seen as a limiting effect to the metagame.

Checks and counters:
Countering Lucario largely relies on identifying Lucario's build, whether it is physical or special offensive variant. Some of the more common checks and counters are listed below:
 
Mandibuzz (counter to physical variant, also does reasonably well against both sets)
Salamence (checks both variants)
Sableye (counter to physical variant)
Hippowdon (counter to physical variant)
Cofagrigus (check to physical variant)
Tentacruel (counter to special variant)
 
 
Suggestion for ban criterion:
While using Lucario, it may not always feel like Lucario is a Pokemon you can "sweep with little to no effort" because when you are using Lucario, you can feel its limitations because you are only limited to the moveset you are using. However, from the opposing point of view things get a whole lot more difficult because opponent cannot always even guess Lucario's moveset until Lucario has at least attacked them once. Considering Lucario's power, even one powerful attack on an unexpecting opponent may cause unrepairable damage to their board position. While it must be noted that 2/3 of Lucario's are of the physical variant, 1/3 Lucario's being Special is common enough to keep opponent uncertain. Furthermore, Lucario can be countered with cores of multiple Pokemon. An example of this is using a physical defensive Hippowdon to counter physical Lucario and Tentacruel against special offensive Lucario.
 
While Tentacruel and Hippowdon can be recognized as fundamentally solid Pokemon in the current UU tier in general, the Tier Council feels that Lucario may restrict teambuilding a little bit too much due to its unpredictability and to the extent of being detrimental to the UU metagame. Therefore while Tier Council recognizes that Lucario is definitely not far from being potentially even "Offensive Uber Characteristics" in UU tier, it even more notably seems to exert a somewhat unhealthy effect to newly established UU tier.
 
 
Prompt for discussion:
The Tier Council recognizes and understands the current UU metagame is very new and has only existed for a few weeks. Lucario has established itself at the very least a very notable threat and has some traits that can be argued are detrimental to the development of the tier. The Tier Council wants to get your inputs to the topic, such as:
 
- Is Lucario Offensive Uber Chacteristics in your opinion?
- Does Lucario affect teambuilding in an unhealthy manner?
- Or do you feel that Lucario has enough counterplay or can have that counterplay as metagame develops? Or is it too early to tell yet?
 
Keep in mind, just because a discussion thread is opened does not mean a Pokemon necessarily will get banned. We have reached also positive feedback of current UU tier and we respect that. We wanted to open a thread for Lucario because we wanted to get an understanding whether this Pokemon that on the surface looks very problematic actually feels that way for UU players, or whether UU players feel like Lucario is not causing enough problems in UU tier for action to be taken.
 
Please discuss!
 

Zapdos definitely makes good use of a Ground-type partner. The most common for this are Garchomp and Mamoswine. While Mamoswine is a good option as well, I think Garchomp has become the go-to Ground-type even more clearly in Doubles thanks to outspeeding Jirachi.
 
You can take the team to many directions from there. Something you might wanna consider having are:
 
- Weather setter
 
Having a weather setter allows you to counteract Swift Swim sweepers that can outspeed Garchomp and Zapdos in rain, which otherwise could just run you over. The most common Pokemon for this role is Tyranitar, however you may also experiment with other options like Gigalith (if you have a Trick Room mode), Vanilluxe/Abomasnow (if you want to punish the Dragon-type meta) or even use a Sun setter like Ninetales/Torkoal (latter, which needs TR support). You can also trial other things like Sunny Day Prankster Whimsicott.
 
A weather setter isn't a complete must. For example, if you have very bulky Pokemon - and preferably a Trick Room mode - you can potentially beat Rain teams without counterweather. But just having 6 fast sweepers will have a tough time against Rain without counter weather.
 
- Ice-type counter
 
If you take the advice of using Garchomp (or even Mamoswine), you kinda want something that can switch on Ice-type attacks. Especially if you want to counter Mamoswine, Rotom-Wash/Heat are the best to do that. But a simple Ice-type counter can be just a Metagross or Jirachi, albeit they slightly struggle against Mamoswine.
 
Other slots are pretty flexible. I personally like Hitmontop in just about every team. Intimidate and Fake Out + Feint pressure can just about checkmate opponents in so many situations. It's just a swiss-army knife that is great to have 1 in your team. But the options can be just about anything.

Yeah personally, I don't think the risks are worth it. These kinds of decisions are incredibly difficult to backtrack. Even hypothetically if we were "just to test it", it would be tiering wise so difficult to determine when was the experimentation such a disaster that Knock Off would have to reverted back to its old self. It's just better not to go there because the moment Knock Off was buffed, it sends such massive shockwaves to all MMO tiers and returning to anything at that point becomes practically impossible.
 
We agreed before that old 20 Power Knock Off is justifiable with no Megas and no Fairies. I don't think we should change now.
 
Also yeah jesus christ Conk would become busted

Zapdos definitely makes good use of a Ground-type partner. The most common for this are Garchomp and Mamoswine. While Mamoswine is a good option as well, I think Garchomp has become the go-to Ground-type even more clearly in Doubles thanks to outspeeding Jirachi.
 
You can take the team to many directions from there. Something you might wanna consider having are:
 
- Weather setter
 
Having a weather setter allows you to counteract Swift Swim sweepers that can outspeed Garchomp and Zapdos in rain, which otherwise could just run you over. The most common Pokemon for this role is Tyranitar, however you may also experiment with other options like Gigalith (if you have a Trick Room mode), Vanilluxe/Abomasnow (if you want to punish the Dragon-type meta) or even use a Sun setter like Ninetales/Torkoal (latter, which needs TR support). You can also trial other things like Sunny Day Prankster Whimsicott.
 
A weather setter isn't a complete must. For example, if you have very bulky Pokemon - and preferably a Trick Room mode - you can potentially beat Rain teams without counterweather. But just having 6 fast sweepers will have a tough time against Rain without counter weather.
 
- Ice-type counter
 
If you take the advice of using Garchomp (or even Mamoswine), you kinda want something that can switch on Ice-type attacks. Especially if you want to counter Mamoswine, Rotom-Wash/Heat are the best to do that. But a simple Ice-type counter can be just a Metagross or Jirachi, albeit they slightly struggle against Mamoswine.
 
Other slots are pretty flexible. I personally like Hitmontop in just about every team. Intimidate and Fake Out + Feint pressure can just about checkmate opponents in so many situations. It's just a swiss-army knife that is great to have 1 in your team. But the options can be just about anything.

Zapdos definitely makes good use of a Ground-type partner. The most common for this are Garchomp and Mamoswine. While Mamoswine is a good option as well, I think Garchomp has become the go-to Ground-type even more clearly in Doubles thanks to outspeeding Jirachi.
 
You can take the team to many directions from there. Something you might wanna consider having are:
 
- Weather setter
 
Having a weather setter allows you to counteract Swift Swim sweepers that can outspeed Garchomp and Zapdos in rain, which otherwise could just run you over. The most common Pokemon for this role is Tyranitar, however you may also experiment with other options like Gigalith (if you have a Trick Room mode), Vanilluxe/Abomasnow (if you want to punish the Dragon-type meta) or even use a Sun setter like Ninetales/Torkoal (latter, which needs TR support). You can also trial other things like Sunny Day Prankster Whimsicott.
 
A weather setter isn't a complete must. For example, if you have very bulky Pokemon - and preferably a Trick Room mode - you can potentially beat Rain teams without counterweather. But just having 6 fast sweepers will have a tough time against Rain without counter weather.
 
- Ice-type counter
 
If you take the advice of using Garchomp (or even Mamoswine), you kinda want something that can switch on Ice-type attacks. Especially if you want to counter Mamoswine, Rotom-Wash/Heat are the best to do that. But a simple Ice-type counter can be just a Metagross or Jirachi, albeit they slightly struggle against Mamoswine.
 
Other slots are pretty flexible. I personally like Hitmontop in just about every team. Intimidate and Fake Out + Feint pressure can just about checkmate opponents in so many situations. It's just a swiss-army knife that is great to have 1 in your team. But the options can be just about anything.

Zapdos definitely makes good use of a Ground-type partner. The most common for this are Garchomp and Mamoswine. While Mamoswine is a good option as well, I think Garchomp has become the go-to Ground-type even more clearly in Doubles thanks to outspeeding Jirachi.
 
You can take the team to many directions from there. Something you might wanna consider having are:
 
- Weather setter
 
Having a weather setter allows you to counteract Swift Swim sweepers that can outspeed Garchomp and Zapdos in rain, which otherwise could just run you over. The most common Pokemon for this role is Tyranitar, however you may also experiment with other options like Gigalith (if you have a Trick Room mode), Vanilluxe/Abomasnow (if you want to punish the Dragon-type meta) or even use a Sun setter like Ninetales/Torkoal (latter, which needs TR support). You can also trial other things like Sunny Day Prankster Whimsicott.
 
A weather setter isn't a complete must. For example, if you have very bulky Pokemon - and preferably a Trick Room mode - you can potentially beat Rain teams without counterweather. But just having 6 fast sweepers will have a tough time against Rain without counter weather.
 
- Ice-type counter
 
If you take the advice of using Garchomp (or even Mamoswine), you kinda want something that can switch on Ice-type attacks. Especially if you want to counter Mamoswine, Rotom-Wash/Heat are the best to do that. But a simple Ice-type counter can be just a Metagross or Jirachi, albeit they slightly struggle against Mamoswine.
 
Other slots are pretty flexible. I personally like Hitmontop in just about every team. Intimidate and Fake Out + Feint pressure can just about checkmate opponents in so many situations. It's just a swiss-army knife that is great to have 1 in your team. But the options can be just about anything.

Yeah personally, I don't think the risks are worth it. These kinds of decisions are incredibly difficult to backtrack. Even hypothetically if we were "just to test it", it would be tiering wise so difficult to determine when was the experimentation such a disaster that Knock Off would have to reverted back to its old self. It's just better not to go there because the moment Knock Off was buffed, it sends such massive shockwaves to all MMO tiers and returning to anything at that point becomes practically impossible.
 
We agreed before that old 20 Power Knock Off is justifiable with no Megas and no Fairies. I don't think we should change now.
 
Also yeah jesus christ Conk would become busted

Yeah personally, I don't think the risks are worth it. These kinds of decisions are incredibly difficult to backtrack. Even hypothetically if we were "just to test it", it would be tiering wise so difficult to determine when was the experimentation such a disaster that Knock Off would have to reverted back to its old self. It's just better not to go there because the moment Knock Off was buffed, it sends such massive shockwaves to all MMO tiers and returning to anything at that point becomes practically impossible.
 
We agreed before that old 20 Power Knock Off is justifiable with no Megas and no Fairies. I don't think we should change now.
 
Also yeah jesus christ Conk would become busted