Merckis

TC should document their reasoning more, and use publicly available core principles & data that anyone can check. The Gallade ban seems very arbitrary and iniquitous. This is too vague, and I would argue Gallade doesn't fit this definition ("with little effort") at all. Based on data many other mons should be banned before Gallade. Like how the **** is Gliscor not ruled a Defensive Uber then?! In any given game it will heal over 3 times its lifepool. We have ON VIDEO a high ranked dude, tanking Rotom Wash Hydro pump with Sp Def Gliscor and easily taking it out with toxic. Sp Def Gliscor can even tank Ice Beam from many mons. The recovery is absolutely insane and it's immune to status with an absolutely stellar stat spread (speed, defense, good atk, 45 sp atk very low so other stats are good). Like Gliscor is not a straight up 510 total pokemon if you calculate properly taking into account sp atk & benefits from poison heal. It can have so many movesets (Taunt? Fling? Facade? Sword Dance? EQ? Acrobatics? Toxic? Protect? Sp Def? Def? Stone Edge? Protect?) Gallade has like 1 moveset that you can easily guess (outspeeds you or not) On the other hand we have Gallade that must guess on every attack, cannot sweep anything without scarf (and with scarf many things won't be OHKO), is still vulnerable to priority moves and suffers a lot from hazard. So we have an offensive threat which cannot afford to make a mistake and requires a specific scenario to sweep anything, and on the other hand we have Gliscor which by definition tanks anything with little effort, can afford to make mistakes. Overall banning Gallade is ok, tier is still reasonably healthy, but really feels it's coming out of nowhere. Some changes are based on pure data (Venusaur, Xatu to NU) and are obviously wrong. Some changes like Gallade are not based on data and are contentious as well. The thread discussing Gallade wasn't enough, we need actual data & reasoning from TC to at least understand the philosophy. Like for Vaporeon we got "We voted this way, deal with it, see you next time" I have enough money in game to update teams etc. but I feel bad for newer players investing in a mon like Gallade or Zoroark only for it to get a tier change with weak explanations Like I understand sticking to the data strictly and moving Zoroark to UU, but it was perfectly fine in NU. So try to be coherent instead of using this mix & match of systematical approach & arbitrary approach.

That's a great answer, totally respect your arguments there. Air Mail Blissey kinda shows to what extent players will go to counter Rotom, giving up an item slot to counter a single move, I think it's a symptom of a problem. In my opinion Rotom forces you to build your team to counter it, it shapes the metagame & teambuilding. But Gallade will be chipped by Stealth Rock & Weather, it will take significant damage from priority moves. It will die even to untiered threats, any mon which outspeeds Gallade can kill it. It's vulnerable to status, etc. etc. It requires a more pro active gameplay, but any team can kill a Gallade. It can never switch in for free. However some team can simply not deal with Gliscor at all, same for cores like Rotom/Mienshao/Amoonguss/Chansey/Blissey. No "hard counter" isn't totally wrong in current metagame, but there are definitely checks & you can always predict & punish. Gallade always needs to guess correctly on the psycho cut, sacred sword, ice punch, etc. I feel the problem is more that stall team are so strong that they can even incorporate Gallade to beat other stall teams Like in no other metagame (smogon etc.) has Gallade been banned out of OU. Gallade will come & go, Rotom Wash & Gliscor etc. will stay. Better to keep bringing new stuff to the metagame, way more fun as well. Also it's not really true regarding the hard counters because of the 4 moves syndrome. Without Leaf Blade, Slowbro & Sableye can counter Without Ice Punch, Defensive Salamence, Gliscor can counter And if you don't run Scarf you'll get outsped, if you run Scarf then you can counter by definition, of course you need to scout the scarf first, not saying that's easy, but there is something you can do. Also, again, it needs to get in in the first place, avoid a status, avoid a teleport, etc. etc. You cannot get in for free & swing your sacred sword like a maniac Also Weavile will trap it & kill it with Pursuit, Metagross can easily fight with him, there are things to do. Gliscor isn't vulnerable to status at all, it can taunt & break any wall, it can make a mistake & recover with protect or Roost. It can run max sp def & tank ice beam. It can even stall Hydro Pump Rotom Wash & win with toxic & roost.

I don't understand the bias towards stall. Gallade is strong against stall, as said above by others, and the metagame is adapting. Why should stall be favored? Why Gallade should be banned but not mons with a higher usage. People keep posting calcs with Gallade but that's not what competitive Pokemon is about. In a game Rotom Wash will trick a wall, burn at phys attacker, hydro pump Infernape, Volt Switch on Gyarados, Defog, etc. Rotom Wash is very often a 2 for 1 if not a 3 for 1. Gallade is nowhere near that level of power. Let the metagame shift. How is a 45 min stall game interesting? I don't even play Gallade, I don't like his design so I really feel I speak objectively, it seems that there is a bias to steer the metagame in a certain direction and favor some pokemon over some other. If that is the case that's ok but at least be transparent about it. If you want to keep a metagame centered around Rotom Wash & Garchomp why not but Gallade in a vacuum is totally manageable by the metagame. Win Rate isn't relevant unless we have more comprehensive statistics with the distribution per ELO rating etc. Usage is what makes a metagame fun or not and will keep people playing and exploring. The Rotom Wash cores are super oppressive for anyone trying to brew an off meta team, you cannot break it, it is super consistent & stable. You won't see OHKO like Gallade can do, but you'll lose 100% of the time. Gallade might make more explosive plays but it has many easy weaknesses to exploit, that's way more fun than getting stalled with certainty. Stall is so broken because you can make mistakes & still recover. Gliscor is a prime example, it has so much recovery that even if you get surprised by a sp. Atk Tyranitar using Ice Beam you might survive & recover. Stall is way more oppressive than Gallade, it's just more subtle about it. I see the same fallacy in card games, like Magic (MTG). Sometimes control deck (kinda similar to stall) start not even playing a win condition anymore because they know the other guy will just concede. It's not because stall isn't obviously threatening that it's not overpowered. Banning Gallade would be a terrible call in my opinion. Let the metagame develop. If Gallade is truly oppressive, which I heavily doubt then let it rise in usage more. Usage is more important, like Rotom sits at ~52% winrate with 30% usage, which means that skilled player and complete beginners play him, yet its winrate is still sky high. And this has been going on for years. There is no counter play for Rotom, it can be sp. def or def and get the appropriate support from its team, you can so easily switch around with Rotom and guarantee a win, there is very little commitment, it's so, so strong. Gallade is more "flashy" if you want, but it's completely wrong to say it's stronger that Rotom or other mons with higher usage, it's a different gameplay.

Hey everyone, Vaporeon was recently banned from NU (or rather moved to NUBL) and we didn't really receive any explanation from the Tier Council, beyond the discussion thread which feels a bit lackluster. I would like players who are in favor of keeping Vaporeon out of NU to share their thoughts so that we can gain a better understanding of the metagame and how the Tier Council might want to shape it. My biggest interrogation is the comparison with Meta Pokemon like Rotom and Blaziken. They have way higher usage and have a similar win rate (55%+) as Vaporeon. However unlike Vaporeon which was always running the same set more or less (Bold, Wish, Protect, Scald, Toxic/etc.) you can easily lose a game if you guess wrong against a Blaziken, it could be scarfed & physical, it could be life orb & sp atk, or mixed. On top of that Blaziken can always U-Turn so it doesn't have to commit. Vaporeon seems like a good answer to Blaziken & Rotom because it can scout their move and take an educated decision, rather than the guessing game that any other pokemon is under when facing Blaziken. Blaziken also outspeeds most of the tier, and all walls with no investment. Blaziken can literally OHKO the entire top 10 of NU depending on its set, making it a non interactive & unfun guessing game. Golbat gets 2HKO by Thunderpunch. - Mixed Attacker 252 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 224-265 (110.8 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cloyster: 148-174 (118.4 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 226-268 (131.3 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 203-242 (98 - 116.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO 0- SpA Life Orb Blaziken Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 174-211 (95.6 - 115.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 221-265 (109.4 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Eviolite Golbat: 88-107 (48.6 - 59.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 118-141 (94.4 - 112.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO - Phys Atk 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eelektross: 165-195 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 151-182 (82.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO 252+ Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 168-198 (89.8 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO 252+ Atk Blaziken U-turn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sceptile: 116-138 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Sp Atk 252+ SpA Life Orb Blaziken Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 121-142 (66.8 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Blaziken Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile: 174-206 (98.8 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO --- Regarding Rotom it is a similar situation. If you guess wrong you can lose the game. You can get tricked and lose a wall, will o wisp and lose a physical attacker, poisoned and lose your wall, volt switch to take the momentum back, defog, anti spin, offensive with Thunderbolt, nothing relevant in the tier resists the combination of Shadow Ball & Thunderbolt.

I'm blown away by the animosity & the level of entitlement in this thread Personally I'm super happy about the state of PvP, the meta is way more interesting than on Smogon, many people just play sub optimal teams they like. Gallade is definitely not broken. I can't believe we are talking about banning Gallade when you have way more toxic sets like Rotom-Wash, Gliscor, Garchomp, where you cannot know what set they are playing & you can lose when guessing wrong. Like is it trick Rotom Wash or not, you can lose a mon on the trick, Garchomp can setup rocks, hit hard spe or phys or even hone claw, is Gliscor gonna sword dance or not, is it spe def or phys def or offensive. These sets have been around for so long, the Rotom core is still way more popular than Gallade. Rotom can easily end up doing trick + will o wisp & that's a 2 for one, plus volt switching around. Gallade is predictable & risky. I personally don't like Gallade in its design so it being banned is not what concerns me, it's this kind of mob mentality responding with the dismissive smileys all around, and overall being super whiny. Saying the PvP isn't addressed properly by the devs is just factually wrong given all the stats & the ladder experience. Again AFC Adinho is de facto the one person documenting the state of the game the most, and we recently saw Solar Power Charizard & Poliwrath at the top of the ladder. How are you gonna say it's not a good state for PvP

This is for Shellder, you cannot get Old Rod in Unova, it should be Super Rod. I tried with Super Rod & it worked.

I wouldn't consider pivoting out after protect a point in favor of Vaporeon, any pokemon with protect can do this play and you will take some damage on the pokemon switching in, it's not nothing & vulnerable to a prediction I agree Vaporeon is strong but I'm against a ban for the moment, there are other very strong pokemon that scares me way more in the team preview than a defensive Vaporeon at the moment

I don't think Haze is a valid answer. Roar is a better alternative at least. Azumarill for example can still punch you with Return or click Toxic, a Return (unboosted) hit puts you in 2HKO range (if you're Bold, otherwise it's straight up 2HKO) . Also Haze is wasting one turn and one move slot, you could be playing Unaware Quagsire, Clefable, or Encore prankster Sableye as an actual answer to the threat, a pro active answer that can force a switch out, from a switch in into a boosted threat. Vaporeon isn't going to switch into a boosted threat, if it tries to predict and goes in on an unboosted setup pokemon it can just get punched in the face and then you can switch out and threaten Vaporeon with another pokemon to take the momentum. So the pokemon doing the setup isn't really committing & you are not losing momentum. Also Vaporeon is 65 speed, so you gotta pray you are faster if threat is already boosted. 22% of Vaporeon are paired with Quagsire according to stat, already "Hazed", there is also 30% of Vaporeon not running Bold nature. So I thing it's pretty ok to assume a good amount of them aren't running Haze. I would bet a lot are Scald, Ice Beam/Toxic, Wish, Protect I see zero scenario where Haze is advantageous, revenge killer Vaporeon can easily be switch in by many mons or punched while it clicks haze, switch in vaporeon will get punched unless water. So unless you predict with Vaporeon Haze won't do much. Also how is Haze Vaporeon better than Haze Golbat eviolite. Unburden Sceptile will 2HKO you and can Sword Dance all day, boosted or unboosted you'll go down Azumarill hits Return or Toxic Shed Skin Rest Scrafty Bulkup can just sit in front of you all day and get a free switch in whenever it feels like it Magic Guard Clefable same I want Vaporeon to be good personally but I sincerely don't see it as strong in the tier, so banning him really sounds outlandish to me. It's so easy to maneuver around it, like it enables threats to switch around more than anything I feel. With Roar you have a good chance to get the momentum back at least after clicking it. But bottom line is that you are wasting a move slot against teams not playing any boost, Eelektross doesn't care about Haze, Escavalier neither, Rotom neither, Blaziken neither, etc.

The fact that Assault Vest & Bulk set were not discussed at all initially really shows that it's good to explore meta game some more

Vaporeon is extremely predictable in a given team usually, you will guess if it's wish protect or a more offensive set. Water Absorb is another fairly predictable switch in. Thus Vaporeon can be used as setup fodder for some pokemon like Azumarill, Shed Skin Scrafty, Magic Guard Clefable, etc. etc. Vaporeon is vulnerable to toxic as mentioned and won't wall any water type that runs toxic like Tentacruel and Tentacruel has nothing to fear in return. Bulky offense like Eelektross or Escavalier will do a lot of damage and receive little in return. Rotom will volt switch away or trick for great effect. Any variant of Sceptile will destroy Vaporeon as well. I don't find Vaporeon oppressive for the moment, it's vulnerable to many approaches and doesn't have a rich moveset. It will get wiped by a sweeper unlike Quagsire and cannot do anything meaningful to take the momentum back (Quagsire can rocks, spikes), all it has going for it is its decent stats.

I feel the strategic aspect is a bit ignored. Like when you see Gallade in the team preview it should be quite clear what are your options against him, what are his targets, his potential switch ins etc. And given his bulk and his speed, Gallade cannot sweep. So I feel it's quite easy to limit Gallade to a 1 for 1 exchange at best with your team. Not saying 1 for 1 is bad, but typically making a single mistake against a versatile pokemon like Dragonite could end up in a free DD and Dragonite actually sweeping an entire team. But Dragonite could be choice banded as well, that ambiguity is scary, Gallade is far less ambiguous. On top of that Gallade move choice when in, will be fairly obvious so Gallade becomes quite vulnerable to some predictions, nothing guaranteed, but that diminishes its expected value. Similarly when your Wall is in, it will either be Gallade coming in to revenge kill which I think is the actual positions mostly discussed by people on this topic. Or trying to get a free switch in but that's dangerous, any attack from the wall will do relevant damage to Gallade (Gyro ball does 50%, Brave Bird OHKO, Will O Wisp etc.), and the wall switching out kills your momentum and puts Gallade in a bad situation Also in OP post we see that mons like Garchomp & Gliscor do very well against him & they are popular in the meta. So once again it's more a question of what mon Gallade is actually replacing in existing teams, what do you take out to put Gallade in and why. Beating stall/a wall mon with Gallade is a commitment (you take stealth rock, maybe life orb damage, dude predicts Gallade coming in, etc.), there are tons of alternatives with very little commitment, trick rotom, taunting, etc. etc. But I haven't seen Gallade enough yet, that's my biggest gripe actually, I want to feel its power lol and face it more than that, give the poor mon some time

Yeah I think OP forgot about mummy in his calc against Cofagrigus Never mind he was on psycho cut not night slash

I feel like Gallade is quite comparable to Mienshao in particular sets running Stone Edge. With something like Close Combat (more or less sacred sword), Stone Edge (roughly equivalent to psycho cut in terms of power & coverage) Mienshao has quite a good coverage. Stone Edge can miss of course but in terms of expected value I feel we are in the same ballpark. Mienshao also has U-Turn which is huge. The issue is that Gallade has to commit to a move whereas Mienshao never really has to commit and is faster. And of course Mienshao has one of the most powerful ability in the Game with Regenerator, the same ability that will bring Slowbro in OU as well as Tangrowth when they get it. Mienshao can also run Taunt in terms of breaking a wall (not entirely the same stricto sensu, but you get the point). It can also run assault vest set etc. It's not as 1 dimensional as Gallade. Mienshao still has value and can do chip damage after taking Will O Wisp. Gallade switching in a Will O Wisp is basically a death sentence I'm not saying banning Sharpness is out of the picture. I just feel like it's so early for such a strong statement. The total damage output of Mienshao during a game feels like it will always be higher than what Gallade can do. Gallade cannot switch around, cannot switch in a lot of stuff and must be scarfed or life orb so it's quite hard to get the same damage output over the course of a game, you'll die soon after clicking your one attack. And Gallade switch ins are painfully predictable. Then you can say that you can run Gallade alongside Mienshao and that's a fair point, considering that Weezing strongest point is shutting down Regenerator and switching in almost freely on Mienshao, same for Cofagrigus (maybe Jellicent & Gliscor as well you could argue), and both of them are hurt by Gallade. But here we are already talking about team composition so yeah, I would say it's too early to call for a ban --- Btw I joined PokeMMO a year ago (made a forum account recently goes of the Patrouski video & the server outage), and one thing I love about the game is the friction required to get a competitive Mon. I'm quite active in OU, recently beat the #1 ranked OU player in a ranked match. I have enough PokeYen to buy a comp Gallade now. But my point is that I have yet to experience Gallade fully (so far it's super weak against my team is all I can say). So banning should be done in a slower fashion that was is done on Showdown. Give the people a chance to experience it. If even an active OU player like me has barely experienced Gallade, I can't tell what it feels like for players playing less regularly. You don't even get to finish breeding your Gallade or buying it, and it's gone already. Additionally, AFC Adinho, one of the most documented OU player through his videos - I'm not judging his content (which I like), I'm just saying he contributes to documenting the state of OU through his videos - has barely anything featuring Gallade, he does not play him and rarely faces him. Yet is well ranked in OU and as I said his journey is well documented. To me that supports the fact that Gallade hasn't been experienced enough.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 120-142 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock If Gallade attacks even once with all the Life Orb calcs posted by OP he is dead to any priority move (Extreme Speed, Bullet Punch) or any relevant pokemon outspeeding him or being able to live a hit, Garchomp, Dragonite, etc. So unless Gallade does revenge kill, which isn't a given at all with its speed and the calcs clearly showing he is more of a 2HKO mon, he won't do much. Also as already said he is super predictable, you don't have to guess like against Garchomp or Dragonite He as 0 recovery and 0 bulk so you only get 1 chance with Gallade, and all you can do is revenge kill, you CANNOT sweep with Gallade given his speed (and/or lack of coverage depending on scarf of no scarf) We also have the whole Smogon history to make a judgement and Gallade hasn't even reached OU once except in S/V, of course the meta are different but that says a lot So he cannot switch in, and can only afford 1 mistake per game, so you must revenge kill and guess correctly, that's a lot. Many mons do much better, less conditionally, are much less predictable as well.

Been playing OU for a long time don't know OP but I'm sorry to say the first post sounds heavily biased. All of these calculations are quite meaningless, how do you end up clicking Psycho Cut vs Weezing for example, you predict the switch in? You have a life orb set so everything is outspeeding you but that's not a problem? Put the calculations for Conkeldurr using Facade & you'll have similar results, hell, use Cranidos Choice Band Head Smash at this point. Way too early to tell. Gallade feels weak to me at the moment. Very one dimensional, unlike Garchomp or Rotom Wash. How can such a one dimensional and frail and slow Pokemon be a menace

Yeah would appreciate if OP could be banned for being so obnoxious and impersonating Kyu