Jump to content

pachima

Members
  • Posts

    2672
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    15

Posts posted by pachima

  1. 1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

    I am sorry for a even bigger wall of text @pachima but I thought it is better to say everything to discuss it properly. Thanks everyone for reading.

    My pleasure. I appreciate someone taking the effort to actually go through. 

    There are a few things I guess we can just agree to disagree, and that is fine. One or two I actually disagree and will discuss upon it, and a few I'll have to give it to you. Let me try to make it simple.

     

    1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

    I disagree, it is bad because it restricts the teambuilding which is unhealthy for the tier, the point of having different tiers is so a bigger number of pokémon get to be used, by restricting the viability of a large number of mons in favor of a few you create the opposite effect, there are also not many reliable mons apart from Sableye that can deal with Gallade even if they are not very good in the tier. The tier has many offensive tools to deal with any defensive core, what I see in OU is that many players run the same movesets and same cores while other good movesets and cores that are as good as the most used ones are not used enough.

    This is the part I disagree with the most, and it is very easy to understand why by comparing OU with UU and NU. OU is very stagnant, and the same defensive cores are used and abused. When spectating UU and NU, games are usually much more diverse despite the fact it is far more common to have unbalanced shifts in those tiers. Having un unbalanced metagame doesn't correlate to having a restricted metagame. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt, and NU is a very good example of why so. 

     

    I bolded something that I believe highlights a misconception about competitive Pokémon in general. I feel people are unable to manipulate the field in order to pressure opposing threats. They feel they can simply react to their moves, by simply clicking the "counter" to whatever they play. This unfortunately has lasted for far too long in a format that for some reason kept encouraging this. This is not playing Pokémon, despite whatever some stall players will tell you. Even stall can't be reactive. If it can, then there is something extremely wrong with the format within. 

     

    You need to be both reactive and proactive. When it comes to wallbreakers, you cannot think: Oh, I need to stop this. No, you need to think: I need to prevent the opposing team from being in a position where I am forced to stop it. Sometimes you can't do this either because the Pokémon is too strong, or because the format has not enough tools for it. In these cases, said Pokémon should be evaluated. This is not the case in OU, where most common Pokémon can actually handle with Gallade. 

     

     

     

     

     

    1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

     

    While I agree that Zapdos is a decent answer to Gallade I can't agree with it being a solid one. The most optimal Zapdos spread to deal with Gallade in my opinion is this one:

     

    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Timid Nature
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Spe

     

    Zapdos is also weak to Stealth Rocks.

    It is solid not in the sense of countering, but in the sense of being a defensive Pokémon that can both prevent Gallade from entering, force Gallade out AND force Gallade to risk a very non-spammable move if it wants to catch it on the switch. That's solid enough for me. 

     

    Zapdos can run brave bird to guarantee the KO, if needed. In a defensive variant, you are really not using the extra hurricane power at all. 

     

    Regardless, again, I feel this is a mentality thing rather than a objective and simplistic view of counters and checks. Either way, I agree what you said when claiming Zapdos shouldnt simply be added in a team that is already weak to Gallade, expecting it to magically solve the problem. 

     

    I deffinitely agree with the bolded part, tho, which can neuter the bird pretty easily.

     

    1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

     

    Lucario, unlike Gallade, can't have the same wide coverage that Gallade has with only 4 moves. The physical one usually would need a fighting attack which usually is Close Combat, Sword Dance and Extreme Speed are very useful if you want to sweep once you setup, this leaves one extra move which is usually Ice Punch with which Lucario can defeat threats like Gliscor or Dragonite, other options are Zen Headbutt if you want to OHKO Weezing if you are running Adamant Nature (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 148-177 (86 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO), Crunch to deal with threats like Reuniclus, Cofagrigus or Chandelure, Thunder Punch to deal with Gyarados and Pelipper or Meteor Mash to have a good move against everything. The Special one will usually run a special fighting move which is usually Aura Sphere, Nasty Plot, Vacuum Wave and a 4th move that is usually Dark Pulse, another useful move is Flash Cannon. There are many other options but I can't name all of them.

     

    Overall, Lucario is just more manageable than Gallade is.

    Lucario IS more manageable than Gallade. I agree. When it comes to purely wallbreaking tho, I considered the set: Flash Cannon - CC - Tpunch - Ipunch. It is very hard, nigh impossible to reliably entering on it with a very defensive team, which was my argument. Before anyone claims I added no priority, Gallade doesn't use it either so that point would be moot. But yes, Lucario usually prefers running priority, mostly because just how better having an extra answer to offense is than to purely relying on it to break cores. 

    On the other hand, Zapdos is much more solid against Lucario than against Gallade, so there is that.

     

     

    1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

     

    Hydreigon is usually used as a special sweeper and can be countered by Careful or Jolly AV Mienshao, Careful Conkeldurr can also do it. You can of course run other sets like DD or even use it mixed with Acrobatics to eliminate Mienshao but overall, Hydreigon is more manageable than Gallade.

     

    Hydreigon is tricky. While it is slightly easier to switch against it the first time, it also doesn't need to predict much, and most importantly, it can enter the field far more often than Gallade can, putting the enemy in a position where it simply cannot outgrind its presence with the few counters to it. (See? Pokémon is complex.)

     

     

    1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

    I didn't mention Mixed Dragonite because I just wanted to put some examples. Dragonite has counters or at least decent ways of dealing with it but I agree that it's a strong wallbreaker. I will assume the Dragonite you mean is this one:

     

    Dragonite @ Life Orb / Dragon Gem
    Rash Nature
    Ability: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
    - Draco Meteor
    - Superpower
    - Flamethrower
    - Extreme Speed

     

    This is the extreme case of it having full Atk and SpAtk, it can be used this way but usually it will have some evs in Speed.

     

    Bold Porygon2:

      Hide contents

     

    AV Amoonguss:

     

      Hide contents

     

    Suicune:

      Hide contents

     

     

      Hide contents

     

    In my opinion it's not as dangerous as Gallade is.

     

    This was not the set I considered also, but for this point in particular it is irrelevant. I don't consider calculating without rocks a wise choice simply because it is far too easy to keep pressure on those rocks in the tier. But I can get behind the argument, despite disagreeing with it, and it is just one of those things where I will simply choose agree to disagree.

     

    On the other hand, AV Amoonguss and/or careful Gliscor was something I overlooked, and I am willing to give that to you.

     

     

    1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

    I have to disagree, I believe you consider it relevant because you consider x1.3 and x1.4 boosts far from being banworthy justifying it with lack of complains and a low usage during that time but I have to disagree, I can only speak for myself when it comes to the x1.3 and x1.4 boosts. When it was nerfed to x1.3 boost its usage was very low but I never thought it was weak, I actually think it was still one of the strongest wallbreakers but I didn't consider it banworthy. Then it was buffed to x1.4 boost and I found it banworthy again, I believe a Jolly natured Gallade is banworthy with a x1.5 boost but I don't consider the speed the nature gives very relevant in the tier so Adamant nature is also a very good option, Adamant Gallade with x1.4 boost reaches the same damage and higher that a x1.5 boost Jolly Gallade can do.

     

    Regarding the lack of complains and usage, apart from all the reasons I stated before I want to add some other ones that I consider relevant:

    • It is possible to check in the game that Gallade's usage was getting higher and higher every month during the x1.4 Sharpness, I consider that many people immediately thought Gallade was not worth using after the nerf without even trying it and then realized how it was still a good mon.
    • Personally, I didn't even bother commenting about Gallade during the x1.4 boost because I found Hydreigon much stronger so I wanted Draco Meteor Hydreigon to be banned first.

    And like I said before, I don't think the complains that we have right now should be ignored just because there were lack of complains or a low usage in the past, what happens now is what really matters. Also everything will be banworthy at some point if you increase its damage so a limit that determines if it is banworthy or not exists.

     

    This will be a double-edged sword.

    First, I disagree what you said, or at least with the reasonings you have given to me: It is inconceivable people would stop arguing if the Pokémon in question wouldn't be still broken. We had countless examples where in the past, people wouldn't stop complaining just because something moved up/down to justify another unbalanced format. 

     

    Second, I never said Gallade at 1.3x or 1.4x was weak. It simply broke people's perceptions of how good it actually was. It shattered its new toy syndrome, while sadly creating a "nerf" syndrome, in where people tend to use nerfed Pokemon less despite how good they are. (More on this soon)(tm)

     

    Third. No, we shouldn't ignore complains now, but we deffinitely should try to understand why those complains suddenly were missing until now, which revolves back to the point I made yesterday.

     

     

    Finally, and because you made the effort to post this, I will help you for your own argument, highlighting the bold part. That sentence can open a new premise. Pokemmo has a very very very (very) slow adaptation process, and it is actually possible the buffs fell upon Gallade too quickly, not giving players enough time to adapt to it, as well as to shatter the nerf syndrome. 

    You said Gallade increased its usage. Maybe, if the test lasted longer, it could have reached high enough numbers to shut down my argument. Maybe not. We cannot know. I can accept this, and I felt it would be good pointing this out for TC to evaluate everything properly and as less biasely as possible.

     

    TLDR; Overall, Gallade abuses cores people were used to play with. This is not unhealthy at all, but most just refuse to adapt. Analyzing OU's usages, we could have seen how much the format changed when Rotom-Wash was added, destroying Hippowdon's and skarmory's usage. We could have seen Garchomp skyrocketing Weavile's usage. A pokémon that was in UU for a long time before it), and how much it increased Starmie's usage, which was heavily declining until then. We could have seen Serperior dropping Rotom-Wash severely. It is very easy to understand how much a problematic Pokémon can shift its format, and yet, Gallade hasn't done any of this in any significant way. (Sabaleye rising a few points isnt significant, not when compared to past shifts). On the other hand, it is possible that not enough time was given to OU to adapt to its nerfed variants, which may or may not impact its validation within the tier. 

     

     

     

  2. 8 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

    You can actually wall most of Gallade's variants with Sableye. But apart from Sableye there is probably nothing that can deal with Gallade in a reliable way. And Sableye is a mon that is probably not good enough to be used in OU for other purposes usually.

    And this is not necessarily bad. You can't expect every threat in the tier to have common answers that deal with them reliably. This shouldn't happen. When it does, it creates extremely stagnant metas centralized in the same defensive cores... (Note how I just describe OU's current state). OU is in a very toxic spot right now. Its players have grown so attached to cores that worked 2-3 years ago, and still work to this day (A few top 10 players are still using teams they had success with 2-3 years ago), that they now refuse to adapt to anything that disrupts them.

     

    But I digress. Zapdos is a very solid answer to it, and I expect people to adapt this new Pokemon to better handle Gallade. Gliscor is actually decent, and while it is not a very reliable answer, it vastly helps by pressuring opposing Gallade into needlessly risks, while also maintaining a defensive pressure against it overall. 

     

    9 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

    1- When it comes to "wallbreaker" definition, a wallbreaker is a mon that is capable of dealing with a large number of walls and usual cores, Lucario, Hydreigon, Conkeldurr, Volcarona, etc. are wallbreakers. These mons are good at wallbreaking but they have their own counters and can be stopped in a defensive way.

     

    2- Gallade has very few counters and therefore it can sweep easily most of the metagame which makes it meet the offensive uber characteristic.

     

    3- Regarding the previous situations of x1.3 and 1.4 Sharpness boosts, while it's true that there were not much complains there are many reasons for that: many people don't use the forums, bigger problems existed (Hydreigon), some people just won't want to keep discussing about the same thing again and again, Gallade's usage was lower with those boosts which made it have a lower impact in the game.

    4- Anyway that is not relevant because people are complaining now about the x1.5 Sharpness and that is what matters. Also the x1.3 and x1.4 boosts could discourage from using it, here are some examples:

     

    1- It is funny you mention Lucario and Hydreigon. You cannot actually stop any of them defensively in a reliably way, without either gambling with their set or correctly predicting what they are going to do, something very similar to what happens with Gallade currently. It is not funny you didn't mention Dragonite, because mixed Dragonite has literally no counters, nor any semi-feasible way at stopping it with a slow-defensive team. It is also interesting to note Mixed Dragonite is not even commonly used, mostly because having no counters in a meta dominated by 3 offensive threats (Scizor-Garchomp-Dnite itself) is not as big as some people claim it to be.

     

    2- I agree with the premise. Gallade has very few counters. I completely disagree with its conclusion. Having no counters doesn't mean the Pokémon sweeps easily most of the metagame. This doesn't generally happen, and definitely doesn't happen with Gallade. 5 out of the 6 most used Pokemon can reliably prevent Gallade from keeping its momentum, or at the very least create a pressuring factor where Gallade is unable to come in. This by itself invalidates this conclusion, and therefore also invalidates it meeting offensive uber characteristics in the way you have presented.

     

    3- Not sure where to start. First, claiming not many people use the forums is a very desperate, and yet false attempt at dismissing the argument. Lots of people use the forums. Some are more vocal than the others. If anything is an issue, you'll see several different people commenting on it. Also, you should read the bolded section of your text, and try to understand why Gallade failed to have an impact so. 

     

    4- On the contrary. It is very relevant. It is the most relevant factor whatsoever in this whole discussion. In fact, outside of very few individuals, not many people are complaining about it now. They used to in the past, before the nerfs proved to them Gallade wasn't as harmful as they thought it was. Gallade is a very solid Pokémon, don't get me wrong, but we really can't be nerfing anything new that can be a threat, mostly because it suffers from the new toy syndrome. If Garchomp was to come in right now, even without SD, and attained these numbers, I can guarantee you many more people would complain about it. Either way, even unnerfed Gallade doesn't have impressive enough numbers to justify anything regarding it by themselves.

     

    Either way, it is impossible to dismiss whatever happened to this Pokémon while nerfed. It wasn't used much. It wasn't complained about as much. Why? Because it wasn't good enough for it to be either used nor discussed about. Then it was buffed a bit, and it was still not good enough for any of them. This comparison IS the best metric to gauge Gallade's effectiveness in the format, and you simply cannot dismiss it.

     

    Regarding the calculations you followed with. At first glance, it may seem that those probabilities's shifts between 1.4x and 1.5x are relevant, when in fact they are not. Besides the fact you'd still be relying on rolls and prediction, literally any other residual damage, including the omni present stealth rocks turns both situations into surefire KOs. In practice, you won't see much difference between the calcs you listed at 1.4x and 1.5x, and I appreciate you for actually proving my point with them. 

     

    I will also take advantage of this post to mention TC, or most importantly, whoever is higher up in their hierarchy, in general. While I disagreed at first with the way Sharpness was nerfed, and while I still disagree with how the community wasn't made aware of it beforehand, in hindsight the change made it a lot easier to identify exactly how and if Gallade was/is actually an issue in the tier. Following this example for potential future nerfs is something I now would gladly hope for, but please, please please please please please, this is not something you nor anyone should tread lightly around a very small group of people. If you ever nerf something to some random value later, please inform the whole community of what you are considering to do, and how exactly you plan to do it, and what the alternatives are, so everyone else can help into creating the correct way of an eventual nerf.

     

     

    Sorry for the wall of text. I would tldr, but Thinknice would kill me 😞

  3. 20 minutes ago, Godhelll said:

    Yeah but you don't understand very well, it's not that it's 1.4 or 1.5, but the complete integration of the entire ability of the pokemon which has been unsuitable from the beginning.

    1.5x is its original value. Having sharpness at 1.5x is therefore expected.

     

    The issue arised when they began changing basic mechanics to better fit their perception of the metagame, opening unwarranted precedents in the future no one asked for. 

     

    Sharpness shouldn't have been nerfed to an arbitrary number. I agree with this. But we are beyond that now, and regardless of whether it made sense or not, we gained information upon its nerf. Sharpness was tested at 1.3x, and Gallade dropped hard, pretty much showcasing how much its fears were overblown out of proportions. Then it was tested at 1.4x. It still didn't have any negative impact in the tier, which was the only reason why Sharpness was reverted back to its original value. 

     

    They shouldn't have done this, but they did, and neither do you nor I have time machines to prevent what already happened. The best thing we can do is analyze what these nerfs showcased and how relevant these nerfs are in the first place. 1.4x to 1.5x is very negligible. If the Pokemon is an issue now, it would have be an issue then, and yet it wasn't. Not even in the slightest.

     

     

    27 minutes ago, Godhelll said:

    As a reminder, after the legitimate nerf of Gallade, no member of the community was consulted on the forum before the nerf to be canceled  without anybody being informed of the reason

    This is not a Gallade issue whatsoever. This is what happens when there is no transparency in most of their decisions regarding new stuff added into the game. This is something they apparently are willing to slowly change for the best, but this isn't a conversation to have in this thread.

     

    28 minutes ago, Godhelll said:

    Your imagination is very nice but doesn't add us much in Gallade subject, moreover, the objective reasons for Gallade's first ban are obviously still all valid

    This can't be more objective at all. Gallade went through 2 different nerfed variants in the format. It failed to have any impact in both. None of these are suppositions, or what ifs, or yada yadas. This happened very recently, and so far no one gave me a solid enough argument as to why a 7% boost in its sharpness moves is enough to turn an overall average Pokémon into the monster some people claim it to be. 

     

    You ask me to calculate. Why? Calculations are used to follow-up an argument. They aren't the argument at all, despite what some people choose to believe. 

    One can give me different calculations, and yet miss the most fundamental aspect of them all.  How often can that Pokémon force the enemy giving up into that position? How often can the selected move be spammed while minimizing prediction risks? How often is that Pokémon on the field, and once it is, what are the requirements for it to be in there in the first place? And honestly, lots of other factors, because competitive Pokémon lurks deeply into a complex grey area. 

     

    A bunch of calculations will never be able to answer this properly, and I really expect people to actually start using them more sparringly, or in tandem with proper arguments for them. 

     

    Either way, we literally had the most objective metric for its viability, and it failed miserably at showcasing how good it should be even with a 1.4x boost. I will repeat once more. A 7% damage boost is not significant enough to turn that Pokémon into something truly problematic, therefore, if it didn't prove to be an issue then, it most likely is not an issue now. Finally, the format is even better equiped at dealing with Gallade now than it was then. We gained access to Zapdos, which even though is not the perfect answer, or whatever people like to use to feel comfortable in a game that shouldn't have them in the first place, is solid enough to control Gallade properly. 

     

     

  4. 21 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

    Some range of damage that 1.5 can do and 1.4/1.3 wont, they all just reached around 2 hits ko something like that.

     

    Check the comment I linked I was responding to someone

    This makes no sense considering the difference in damage between 1.4 and 1.5 is less than half of the range of a roll. 

    Yes, 1.5 > 1.4. But you cannot possibly convince me a Pokemon suddenly getting a 7% damage boost jumps from not worthy discussing besides opening the pandora box to nerfing in general to borderline broken. 

  5. On 2/26/2024 at 12:41 AM, Ziiiiio said:

    In fact alot, I will just write something I remenber

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-263 (102.3 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-243 (96.2 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 192-227 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 161-191 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

     

    Scarf ssowrd 2 hits kills Starmie 

    252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 69-82 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

     

    And ssword + shadow sneak kills Serp and Kingdra, that usually happend on AV gallade. Psycut+shadow sneak kills volcarona as well

     

    As you can see it's alot and it's not done yet

     

    a +2 adamant orbed wallbreaker wallbreaks. 

    What was even the point here?

    If anything, this shows how extremely biased the metagame and this community's mentality is towards a much more defensive gameplay to the point where they complain a wallbreaker does, in fact, break walls once set up. 

     

    The only argument that could be said is no longer relevant. Sharpness shouldn't be nerfed to a random boost unused in original games. If it is too strong, it should be outright banned or at least nerfed to some common grounded value. It is not too strong. Its numbers aren't that impressive either. Period. People refusing to adapt shouldn't warrant any ban or any decision whatsoever. 

  6. In here we did:

    - Compare Dugtrio with Hydreigon

    - State trapping and wallbreaking are only different semantically

    - Imply a Pokemmo metagame works in the similar way to cleaning a house

    - Discuss Gallade in a dugtrio thread, for something Dugtrio never was, ignoring semantic issues ofc (A wallbreaker)

     

    Now, a Pokemon doesn't need to be massively used or incredibly good for it to be uncompetitive. There is a reason why different definitions were created regarding a Pokemon ban. Uncompetitiveness by itself isn't also a binary aspect. There are several levels to this. Some can be tolerated. Others cannot.  Togekiss is uncompetitive, but opens a significant amount of viable and common answers to play around what makes it so. Dugtrio doesn't. It existing warps the metagame around it negatively. We have seen it in NU, where the metagame was completely centralized around it, and magically opened itself as soon as it was gone. In here it is not as extreme as it was there, but we still don't have good enough tools to play around its trapping capabilities. 

  7. 2 hours ago, RysPicz said:

    When I'm looking at the BL/BL2 list:

     

    image.png.a10575c9a8e913e4b8370287bd99540a.png

     

    I really dunno if there's anything that deserves a drop. How about you guys just discuss multiple things at the same time to save you and us some time?

    Discussing potential threats individually, ignoring the outcome of subsequent decisions is wrong either way. This was something I used to pinpoint and they very readily dismissed it, without providing any viable argument whatsoever. They treat this competitive game as something much more linear than what it really is. 

     

    Sometimes it is not possible to accurately check every ramification. Sometimes the affected Pokemon do not interact with each other in a significant degree. But it is very common for a few variables to be immediately taken out of the equation, allowing them to freely discuss what is left in tandem.

     

    Either way, can't wait for the NU discussion to begin. The issue I said above is much much more glaringly obvious in that tier, since everything listed is able to counter or enable each other in a very significant way. If they keep the individual discussions from 1574 with those given names, we are set to a complete set of disasters that will turn the medicham incident into an irrelevant meme. 

     

  8. 8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

    "the same people no complain that it's bulkier than it seems" 


    I never pushed for a Gallade ban or against it. I only pushed against constantly changing shit up with custom bullshit. Considering I am the only one refusing the unfounded argument that Gallade has no bulk, you can't say "the same people" because the only references me and I have not pushed for a ban.

     

     

    Also, nerfed Gallade was not irrelevant in OU because if it was it would have felt to UU. And even if Gallade did become irrelevant in OU, who the fuck cares? There is no requirement for Gallade to be relevant anywhere. Should we make custom changes to Caterpie to ensure it becomes relevant in OU? No. Gallade doesn't require special treatment.

     

    And the reason we are discussing Gallade is because everyone knows what is going on here:

    1. Devs fucked up by adding Sharpness
    2. Devs nerfed Sharpness
    3. Devs don't want Sharpness to stay nerfed, so they buff it slowly but surely until it goes back to it's original format

    There is clearly a hidden agenda that we are not told because devs would no go through so much trouble just to buff/nerf a random pokemon constantly for no apparent reason. Maybe Gallade is one of their favorite pokemon. Maybe they invested in some Gallade stocks. Who knows? Overall, we have to deal with this mess and that's why it's getting discussed. Not because it will change the outcome of anything, but because there is no where else to vent about this non sense.

    You may be the only person discussing its bulk here, right now, but not in discord, neither you were the only that also pushed the argument before. Sorry if the wording offended you in particular, but it wasn't my point. Just wanted to express that such is an irrelevant discussion to have as of the moment.

     

    Gallade wasn't nerfed for long enough to be dropped, and it also suffered from a lag syndrome. I am sure it would drop if more time passed.

     

    Everything you said after that just reinforces that if you want to discuss Gallade, make it when it comes to the absurd dev agenda, as you claimed. That's the only valid concern about it. Custom changes like that are an awful precedent and we should be discussing that instead of trying to argue its brokenness in a format that has proved countless times doesn't exist.

  9. Daily reminder that:
    image.png.734b0d1e94fd8ed31b3dd79139dceb6a.png

     

    Also, this is probably the only pokemon game in existence where a Pokemon was banned out of sheer panic, its nerfed version was completely irrelevant in the tier, people realized it wasn't as broken as they claimed in the offensive side, they buff it, and then the same people now complain that it's bulkier than it seems.

     

    No, Gallade isn't paper, but its bulk hasn't changed whatsoever so that's irrelevant.

    No, Gallade isn't fast. If you think 80 base speed is fast, either your team is utter garbage, or the meta is completely messed up and favorable to more defensive teams to an incredibly unbalanced degree. 

    Yes, this whole conversation about 1.5x or 1.4x is a huge unbelievable meme. You can argue that there is no reason to have a customized 1.4x boost. Fine. You can't argue that a 6.7% damage boost turns a pokemon from an uncounterable Uber offensive pokemon to a random garbage.

     

    Also, why in hell are we discussing a 5% usage Pokemon that has less bulk, worse typing, worse spamming capability and less power when compared to Hydreigon, who is in the tier completely melting everything that tries to come in? 

  10. On 11/8/2023 at 10:31 PM, Imperial said:

    They honestly aren't that expensive and players have the chance to grind with Halloween and upcoming events, there honestly isn't much excuse.

    Except the vast majority of OU ladder consists on casual people that won't be able to afford these Pokemon. And yes, 1m is a lot when you are just starting this game. And no, usage doesn't care about the few 0.01% players that actually play this competitively. Non filtered usage is really meh when it comes to limited Pokemon.

    Suicune has 4% usage AND was the first Legendary. That alone should show everyone of this.

     

  11. On 10/22/2023 at 7:59 PM, Insou said:

    Landorus therian shouldn't be an issue either in the near future. Although, there are currently plenty of answers ranging from weavile, rotom wash, gastrodon, Ice punch conkeldurr, +1 qd volcarona with either fire blast or hp ice and the list goes on. Slowbro is the same case as tangrowth, there's plenty of answers available. Despite Knock off being nerfed, there is still breloom, serperior, volcarona, band tyrannitar, and volt turn cores to deal with it.  

    I don't think you understand how regen works, and why is it such an already centralizing ability despite being in two Pokemon that are much worse at abusing it than any of the ones you mentioned here.

    You also say there are plenty of answers available, but you fail to take it into context. How often are regen Pokemon able to pressure the opposing team after shifting momentum? Very very very often, since they mostly don't even need to waste a turn recovering due to the ability. Now. How often do any of those "answers" is able to control that pressure? Not often. Breloom can't even come in at all in Slowbro, and Technician sets actually lose to Tangrowth. Serperior is worned down quickly by any of them. Volcarona has hazards to care about, and can't really come in on Slowbro.  Band Ttar outright loses to Tangrowth and doesn't really want to face Slowbro, because it either risks a Scald Burn, it is worned down by Rocky Helmet, and can't regain any of that HP, while Slowbro will easily regain back any HP later in the match. Volt-Turn cores do absolutely nothing, since Regen pretty much mitigates the damage taken from those.

     

    The problem is you consider Regen as an individual threat. It is not. Regen cores will outgrind the opposing team by shifting momentum, damaging all at once, while regaining back its HP by simply switching out, and none of the answers you gave helps in that regard whatsoever.

     

     

     

  12. 7 minutes ago, Munya said:

    And I'm telling you I don't care what it was in the past, what it is now is what it is and how it is.

    And all that it is and how it whatever ever how is is not what gb meant at all. Gb tried to explain that if you are to change policies out of nowhere, you should announce what the changes are so we know how and when to discuss things in the appropriate thread in these forums. 

  13. 8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

    This doesn't work. If devs plan to slow down with their constant drop by drop content release, your suggestion would be fine, but I don't think that's their plan at all.

    I agree but I'm not sure they will keep adding stuff as much as they have been recently. Also the new DLC updates won't be nowhere as metawarping as previous ones here. Legendaries are a new feature but I'm sure they will be added really scarcely from now on, thus not negatively impacting the data consistently enough to discredit the average system. Most relevant HAs are here already besides the most broken ones, which I'm positive won't be coming anytime soon. 

     

    I could be wrong, but I really can't see new features being added as much as they have been until now. 

    The game is a really moneygrabber, and I'm sure they plan on dragging that for as long as they can, in which case they have to space out the remaining new features, since those are very limited.

  14. 52 minutes ago, EmilioGarras said:

    I agree with this, its the reason I also avoid competitive now because I see every month some pokes just get banned when I start to adapt to a team estructure, but with some being switched monthly is very ridiculous. Gligar going up and down the tier makes me not want to use it in NU when its available or just not consider when team building because of the instability. 

     

     

    The issue is that they insist on keeping the same monthly data for movements in tiers where there are very few games. It is even worse when you consider Munya outright ignores a significant part of this data by scrapping the last week of each month's worth of data. 

     

    They have changed the movement system, but they didn't even touch the main problem. We are giving too much weight on the last month of the season, where coincidentally is when less matches are played and less reliable the statistics are. No matter what random numbers they decide to pick, this system will just promote random drops and ups at the third month, that shouldn't happen, and that will most likely return to their original tier by next season, rippling the affected tier for 3 months for no reason at all.

     

    This system may work for OU, since there is a much bigger sample there, but is extremely ineffective in lower tiers. Changing the threshold might slightly reduce the negative impact, but ultimately doesn't fix the main issue. 

     

     

    I would suggest creating a different system for UU-NU, where movements can only happen at the third month of each season, averaging the data over a much more significant sample (3 months), as well as reducing the Yo-Yo shenanigans that have been happening for a long long time. 


    This change would not only use a much more reliable sample when factoring movement thresholds in lower tiers, but also severely reduces the negative impact of ignoring the last few days of each month. It also minimizes Yo-yo movements, overall gives people the time to adapt to any changes, and minimizes the impact of anomaly usages. It also minimizes the issue of having a non-linear match count in those tiers, where it drops after the first month.

  15. 3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

      

    image.png.ce14d94c1767f9a795da44e3f67d5cd2.png

     

    What is this?

     

    This is a discussion thread for the community to share their opinion of Venomoth's presence in the PokeMMO NeverUsed tier. Comments and opinions will be reviewed by the Tier Council as they assess whether they should proceed with a standard ban, or even a quick ban, to remove Medicham.

     

    What to know?

     

    Venomoth is an outstanding set-up sweeper and is readily at the top of the food chain in the NU tier. It's only real checks are Gigalith and Golbat, which are fortunately in the tier at the moment. Everything else is set-up bait or fodder. With Tinted Lens it only needs Bug Buzz to hit everything (except Golbat) for at least neutral damage, opening up its movepool to wreak havoc with any combination of incredible support moves. One Quiver Dance lets it outspeed the entire tier, as the Ninjask now moves up to UU and the tier really lacks a quality Choice Scarf user (Tauros?!). After setting up, you better be carrying priority, or hope it's not behind a Substitute and ready to either Disable or Sleep your check. Fortunately, Golbat carries Infiltrator to get through the sub and Gigalith can Rock Blast right on through (fear the Psychic or Giga Drain coverage sets).

     

    Noteworthy Sets?

     

    Quiver Dance to the Beat (Life Orb or Black Sludge)

    - Quiver Dance

    - Bug Buzz

    - Substitute/Psychic/Giga Drain

    - Sleep Powder/Disable

     

    Noteworthy Calcs?

     

    It's an offensive juggernaut and beyond Gigalith and Golbat, there isn't much that can stand up to it. The real money is in what Pokemon can actually stop it after setting up. See below.

     

      Hide contents

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 66-78 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 73-88 (38 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    0 Atk Gigalith Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 168-204 (115.8 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

     

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 133-159 (73 - 87.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 170-204 (117.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

     

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 94-110 (48.9 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Eelektross Flamethrower vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 82-98 (56.5 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

     

    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 94-112 (64.8 - 77.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

     

    252 Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 126-149 (86.8 - 102.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

     

    252 Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth on a critical hit: 177-211 (122 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 118-140 (81.3 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

     

     

    Please discuss.

    Worth noting that with Blaziken gone, Venomoth has an easier time playing Modest, which grants it much better odds fs those walls. (Depending how people play medicham IF it is dropped)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.