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September-Movement Discussion Thread


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15 minutes ago, iJulian said:

image.thumb.png.ee068ca9848fb645c92c0fdc54e2b2e4.png

 

From team preview you can see that only blissey or chomp can be the rocks. 

 

turn 2 it's revealed. turn 3 it shows sd on gliscor's u-turn (Note: at this point garchomp is +0, gliscor chose to stay to u-turn . We also saw that +6 dclaw failed to ko gliscor. Had gliscor chosen to just spam eq instead it wouldv've easily won the 1v1)

 

Also note:

 

a) chucks team has no speed control

b) I mentioned how this previous ou reminds me of newer gens ou

c) running balance/offense without speed control in newer gens ou is simply a sin. bad teambuilding

a + b + c -> With a better build, chuck would've u-turned or teleported out to scarf hydreigh and that would've been it. Chomp is forced out.

 

e chomp got to +6 it only picked up 2 kos and it had to read its opponent twice to do so (first, SDing up on the gliscor's full hp roost, and then EQ'ing gliscor while at +6 to catch the metagross switch in. if gliscor eq'd on either of those turns that was it, chomp is again, gone.)

 

So, recapitulating: chomp faced a team with uturn + teleport but no speed control (bad) , got more or less a free +6 setup by outplaying its opponent not once but twice. and even after all of that it only managed to pick 2 kos. I dont think you could've chosen a better example to display why chomp is indeed, not broken.

I think you fail to realise how important Gliscor is here and how spamming earthquake would lead to a straight loss against a regular chomp. Roost was imo a decent play especially because Chuck could not have known Garchomp had no ev in atk. With Rocks on the field, Magnezone and Mienshao would u-turn + volt switch indefinitely and that would have been a free win without Gliscor there. 

Edited by gbwead
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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

I think you fail to realise how important Gliscor is here 

Are we watching the same team preview? gliscor is there FOR garchomp, dealing with it is its only job: Gliscor losses to reuni, losses to blissey, has a hard time switching on flash cannon (and chuck has blissey which beats mag all day anyways), dusclops beats it one on one and Mienshao is always better dealt with by Jellicent (because of the very real possibility of hp ice while grass knot fails to 2hko even physdef jelli)

 

THIS RIGHT HERE IS SO FRUSTRATING AND IT PERFECTLY SHOWCASES MY POINT: How can a TC member watch that team preview and say "hurr durr gliscor is super important here" you my friend are missreading the game and taking decisions for all of us, to that I say: shame.

 

10 minutes ago, gbwead said:

how spamming earthquake would lead to a straight loss against a regular chomp.

So u-turning is better? that was a missread. no reason to play ahead of yourself that early in the match when you don't know the sets yet. if you wanted to preserve gliscor you'd hard switch to scout and not take a possible draco.

 

12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

With Rocks on the field, Magnezone and Mienshao would u-turn + volt switch indefinitely and that would have been a free win without Gliscor there. 

It literally doesnt make a difference. to stop the volt turn with gliscor you need to make a read anyways, scarf flash cannon 2hkos you , specs has a chance to 0hko after just a bit of chip with rocks. mienshao threatens to ko with hp ice.

 

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 129-153 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

physdef gliscor is far away from being a stop to volturn in this scenario.

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This is what happens when you ban something with zero justification in the post itself. TC truly lazy. 

 

Also imagine thinking Garchomp isnt broken when it forces every wall in the metagame to run physical defense. Garchomp isnt a sweeper. Its just the single most meta defining pokemon in OU, or it was.

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5 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Memeing about Scarf Kingdra in no way addresses Julian's and Life's point as to why that match is a poor example to justify Chomp's ban.  

 

If I link a replay to you guys of losing 2 mons to a 0 SpA invested Togekiss, can we get that banned too?

On the other hand, gb putting that game as an example is, ironically, an example of why tc is weak and 6 people alone shouldn’t be making those calls.

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4 minutes ago, iJulian said:

Are we watching the same team preview? gliscor is there FOR garchomp, dealing with it is its only job: Gliscor losses to reuni, losses to blissey, has a hard time switching on flash cannon (and chuck has blissey which beats mag all day anyways), dusclops beats it one on one and Mienshao is always better dealt with by Jellicent (because of the very real possibility of hp ice while grass knot fails to 2hko even physdef jelli)

 

THIS RIGHT HERE IS SO FRUSTRATING AND IT PERFECTLY SHOWCASES MY POINT: How can a TC member watch that team preview and say "hurr durr gliscor is super important here" you my friend are missreading the game and taking decisions for all of us, to that I say: shame.

 

So u-turning is better? that was a missread. no reason to play ahead of yourself that early in the match when you don't know the sets yet. if you wanted to preserve gliscor you'd hard switch to scout and not take a possible draco.

 

It literally doesnt make a difference. to stop the volt turn with gliscor you need to make a read anyways, scarf flash cannon 2hkos you , specs has a chance to 0hko after just a bit of chip with rocks. mienshao threatens to ko with hp ice.

 

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 87-103 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 129-153 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

physdef gliscor is far away from being a stop to volturn in this scenario.

I'm saying that if Chuck loses Gliscor at that specific point in the duel (team preview has nothing to do with this btw), he would automatically lose the duel. As long as Gliscor is alive, hope is alive. 

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I highly doubt that the ban was a result of that specific match. Garchomp ban (or SD ban) has been talked about a lot in the past and the current ban was a culmination of all those discussions. 

 

However, I do feel that with the advent of specs draco hydrei, chomp and conk has been put in the spotlight recently. 

 

While a chomp ban is quite nice, I don't think it warrants a complete ban. Banning SD on that mon would have been more than enough.

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6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I'm saying that if Chuck loses Gliscor at that specific point in the duel (team preview has nothing to do with this btw), he would automatically lose the duel. As long as Gliscor is alive, hope is alive. 

?????? How do you not take into account team preview when assessing which mons are important in a match and which ones are not??? No wonder you think garchomp is broken. Trading gliscor for chomp turn 5 would not be an automatic loss in that scenario, even with the less than optimal build.

 

The fact that you think that makes look the whole TC discussion and decision process look like a joke.

Edited by iJulian
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5 minutes ago, ThinkNicer said:

This is what happens when you ban something with zero justification in the post itself. TC truly lazy. 

 

Also imagine thinking Garchomp isnt broken when it forces every wall in the metagame to run physical defense. Garchomp isnt a sweeper. Its just the single most meta defining pokemon in OU, or it was.

tbh chomp is like rain if you have the tools you can play around it if you have 0 tools agaisnt rain youre also fucked so should we ban pelliper ? and rain dance xD same with screens if you have nothing agaisnt it youre team is fucked when i made a thread about electrode people told pick a counter for 1 mon so with garchomp we are to lazy ? 

 

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1 minute ago, iJulian said:

?????? How do you not take into account team preview when assessing which mons are important in a match and which ones are not??? Trading gliscor for chomp would not be an automatic loss lmao.

 

The fact that you think that makes look the whole TC discussion and decision process look like a joke.

I never said that... I said that at that moment in the duel losing Gliscor is an automatic loss and the fact that Gliscor carried out a win in the end shows that really.

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8 minutes ago, EricRasp said:

highly doubt that the ban was a result of that specific match. Garchomp ban (or SD ban) has been talked about a lot in the past and the current ban was a culmination of all those discussions. 

It obviously wasn’t. But the fact that gb, who has been the most vocal voice in tc for the chomp van, chose that because it “displayed” his argument only shows how flawed both the arguments and his view of the metagame is. If he can’t look and team preview and assert threats and win cons why is he taking decisions on behalf of the entire player base?

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Why are we even posting about this garbage battle like it is in any way relevant to a chomp ban?

Why are we talking about scarf kingdra?

Why are we seeing the same arguments again and again and again in every single thread with almost 0 justification for any of it where everyone is just trying to rationalise their own biases?

Is this really what the mmo competitive scene has devolved into?

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2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Guys, my Mamo / Hydreigon / Garchomp / Dragonite / Gengar / Reuniclus team lost to SD Scizor.  It's not my fault that I wasn't prepared the second-most used pokemon in the metagame.  This mon alone brought shame to the entire metagame but more importantly to me and my team.

 

Can we ban Scizor too?

if you become tc yes

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1 minute ago, iJulian said:

It obviously wasn’t. But the fact that gb, who has been the most vocal voice in tc for the chomp van, chose that because it “displayed” his argument only shows how flawed both the arguments and his view of the metagame is. If he can’t look and team preview and assert threats and win cons why is he taking decisions on behalf of the entire player base?

Instead of saying "it obviously wasn't", say why "it obviously wasn't" and perhaps you will be able to look passed team preview which is what you seem to struggle with. Looking at team preview is one thing, adaptation is another. Once, Garchomp set up the rocks, Gliscor role changed drastically.

 

Anyhow, it was just an example of what Garchomp is capable of even with 0 ev atk. If you want more justification for the Garchomp ban, you simply need to catch up on a lot of reading from previous threads. It's not a decision that came out of nowhere. 

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4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I never said that... I said that at that moment in the duel losing Gliscor is an automatic loss and the fact that Gliscor carried out a win in the end shows that really.

So staying to eat a draco to uturn out with gliscor was obviously the play chuck made because he wanted to preserve gliscor?

 

I think as flawed as the build was chuck still had the mu. And he could’ve easily won without gliscor.

 

plus, he doesn’t even lose if he stays to eq:

 

EQ on the +2, EQ again on the +4. EQ one last time, eat the +4 hit, KO the chomp and live to roost/de fog on clops or reuni later or a locked mag later.

 

If your team doesn’t have speed control you can’t just mess around and give a setup mon 10 free turns lmao it’ll obviously make it look broken. Yet again, it still only kod 2 mons.

8 minutes ago, redbluegreen said:

Why are we even posting about this garbage battle like it is in any way relevant to a chomp ban?

Why are we talking about scarf kingdra?

Why are we seeing the same arguments again and again and again in every single thread with almost 0 justification for any of it where everyone is just trying to rationalise their own biases?

Is this really what the mmo competitive scene has devolved into?

That’s just current TC for you.

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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Instead of saying "it obviously wasn't", say why "it obviously wasn't" and perhaps you will be able to look passed team preview which is what you seem to struggle with. Looking at team preview is one thing, adaptation is another. Once, Garchomp set up the rocks, Gliscor role changed drastically.

 

Anyhow, it was just an example of what Garchomp is capable of even with 0 ev atk. If you want more justification for the Garchomp ban, you simply need to catch up on a lot of reading from previous threads. It's not a decision that came out of nowhere. 

You chose to display an example for your argument. Your flawed example instead exposed your flawed logic and view of the game.

 

You go back and read the discussion you’ll also find a lot of arguments against. Which why I started by saying a vote should’ve been held instead of just having 6 people (2 dead) making the decision for everyone:

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3 minutes ago, iJulian said:

So staying to eat a draco to uturn out with gliscor was obviously the play chuck made because he wanted to preserve gliscor?

 

I think as flawed as the build was chuck still had the mu. And he could’ve easily won without gliscor.

 

plus, he doesn’t even lose if he stays to eq:

 

EQ on the +2, EQ again on the +4. EQ one last time, eat the +4 hit, KO the chomp and live to roost/de fog on clops or reuni later or a locked mag later.

 

If your team doesn’t have speed control you can’t just mess around and give a setup mon 10 free turns lmao it’ll obviously make it look broken. Yet again, it still only kod 2 mons.

Garchomp did Stealth Rocks and the Gliscor did U-turn. At the time, Gliscor chose to u-turn, Garchomp had not revealed it set, it's not a choke.

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We all agree that garchomp is the most important and centralizing pokemon in OU.

From my point of view it is high that if you need a nerf (I would write my reasons but writing long texts on a cell phone is tedious) maybe not a ban, maybe take away sword dance, at least it would still have the function of being able to cut volt turn and be Revenge killer of some threats like hydreigon (also the mixed one would be used more) but in the end it is my opinion, just as I have that perspective, others have a contrary perspective, so the voting for players is fine for situations like this

 

I think they rushed with the ban, on the other hand that OU final was more of a joke, I think it shouldn't be taken into account for a garchomp argument

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