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September-Movement Discussion Thread


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14 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Garchomp did Stealth Rocks and the Gliscor did U-turn. At the time, Gliscor chose to u-turn, Garchomp had not revealed it set, it's not a choke.

If he wanted to preserve gliscor as you argued he did, then u-turning in the face of a chomp with physdef gliscor IS a choke unless you like eating raw orbed dracos.

 

Either way, whatever his set was, uturning in from of a setup mon with your speedcontrol-less team that lacks a better check IS always a choke,

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1 minute ago, iJulian said:

If he wanted to preserve gliscor as you argued he did, then u-turning in the face of a chomp with physdef gliscor IS a choke unless you like eating raw orbed dracos.

 

Either way, whatever his set was, uturning in from of a setup mon with your speedcontrol-less team that lacks a better check IS always a choke,

I said preserving gliscor became important after Garchomp set up the rocks. When Chuck decided to do u-turn, rocks were not on the field yet, so no it wasn't a choke. 

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I pulled winning teams only, it doesn't tell much, this includes matchmaking.

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  2664828 444138
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Garchomp (445) 150320 33.85%
Scizor (212) 144919 32.63%
Conkeldurr (534) 123649 27.84%
Rotom [Wash Rotom] (658) 92068 20.73%
Hydreigon (635) 90986 20.49%
Ferrothorn (598) 88689 19.97%
Skarmory (227) 83907 18.89%
Volcarona (637) 80852 18.20%
Blissey (242) 73321 16.51%
Gengar (94) 72990 16.43%
Tyranitar (248) 72595 16.35%
Pelipper (279) 71483 16.09%
Kingdra (230) 69035 15.54%
Togekiss (468) 68878 15.51%
Jolteon (135) 63569 14.31%
Cofagrigus (563) 61995 13.96%
Reuniclus (579) 60130 13.54%
Magnezone (462) 59840 13.47%
Gyarados (130) 58000 13.06%
Milotic (350) 52140 11.74%
Chansey (113) 50103 11.28%
Dragonite (149) 46728 10.52%
Mienshao (620) 44979 10.13%
Breloom (286) 44841 10.10%
Cloyster (91) 39515 8.90%
Excadrill (530) 39194 8.82%
Chandelure (609) 34739 7.82%
Mandibuzz (630) 32883 7.40%
Salamence (373) 31531 7.10%
Tentacruel (73) 31255 7.04%
Starmie (121) 30762 6.93%
Hippowdon (450) 30742 6.92%
Darmanitan (555) 29668 6.68%
Infernape (392) 28502 6.42%
Gastrodon (423) 25665 5.78%
Gliscor (472) 23164 5.22%
Kabutops (141) 21959 4.94%
Swampert (260) 20021 4.51%
Lucario (448) 18481 4.16%
Umbreon (197) 14436 3.25%
Metagross (376) 12034 2.71%
Electrode (101) 12004 2.70%
Ludicolo (272) 11958 2.69%
Haxorus (612) 11760 2.65%
Torkoal (324) 11595 2.61%
Aerodactyl (142) 10932 2.46%
Arcanine (59) 10782 2.43%
Dugtrio (51) 9818 2.21%
Bronzong (437) 9787 2.20%
Scrafty (560) 9640 2.17%
Porygon2 (233) 9352 2.11%
Weavile (461) 9052 2.04%
Crobat (169) 7472 1.68%
Zoroark (571) 7040 1.59%
Dusclops (356) 6709 1.51%
Jellicent (593) 6296 1.42%
Rotom [Mow Rotom] 6169 1.39%
Alakazam (65) 6074 1.37%
Krookodile (553) 5619 1.27%
Snorlax (143) 5523 1.24%
Whimsicott (547) 5185 1.17%
Forretress (205) 5140 1.16%
Venusaur (3) 5130 1.16%

But then I pulled winning teams only from tournaments, i felt like it told a much better story.

Spoiler

Garchomp (445) 315 48.69%
Scizor (212) 214 33.08%
Rotom [Wash Rotom] (658} 199 30.76%
Blissey (242) 197 30.45%
Conkeldurr (534) 164 25.35%
Tyranitar (248) 147 22.72%
Hydreigon (635) 141 21.79%
Reuniclus (579) 132 20.40%
Gengar (94) 117 18.08%
Skarmory (227) 110 17.00%
Magnezone (462) 104 16.07%
Kingdra (230) 101 15.61%
Cofagrigus (563) 99 15.30%
Pelipper (279) 99 15.30%
Ferrothorn (598) 92 14.22%
Volcarona (637) 81 12.52%
Hippowdon (450) 76 11.75%
Breloom (286) 63 9.74%
Gliscor (472) 63 9.74%
Kabutops (141) 63 9.74%
Gyarados (130) 62 9.58%
Starmie (121) 61 9.43%
Mandibuzz (630) 58 8.96%
Infernape (392) 57 8.81%
Excadrill (530) 56 8.66%
Togekiss (468) 56 8.66%
Chandelure (609) 52 8.04%
Darmanitan (555) 52 8.04%
Mienshao (620) 51 7.88%
Dragonite (149) 48 7.42%
Tentacruel (73) 48 7.42%
Milotic (350) 46 7.11%
Jolteon (135) 44 6.80%
Gastrodon (423) 42 6.49%
Salamence (373) 42 6.49%
Chansey (113) 40 6.18%
Ludicolo (272) 32 4.95%
Dugtrio (51) 30 4.64%
Swampert (260) 30 4.64%
Cloyster (91) 29 4.48%
Metagross (376) 25 3.86%
Umbreon (197) 23 3.55%
Weavile (461) 22 3.40%
Heracross (214) 20 3.09%
{STRING_150661} (661) 17 2.63%
Lucario (448) 15 2.32%
Jellicent (593) 14 2.16%
Torkoal (324) 12 1.85%
Aerodactyl (142) 11 1.70%
Dusclops (356) 10 1.55%
Porygon2 (233) 10 1.55%
Haxorus (612) 9 1.39%
Sigilyph (561) 9 1.39%
Nidoqueen (31) 8 1.24%
Sceptile (254) 7 1.08%
Shedinja (292) 7 1.08%

 

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The fact that only gbwead is actively discussing with the community shows the TC's deliberate ignorance on an important topic. We all know gbwead's stance on chomp but none of the other TC have even voiced out their rationale when this decision (chomp ban) was made with their input as well. 

 

We need a transparent TC that is vocal. Not just a spokesperson while the others operate in the background. 

Edited by EricRasp
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5 minutes ago, EricRasp said:

Please explain. It would be good if others could see your rationale behind why it's terrible. 

For one, it's widely argued that garchomp, as is, was NOT broken. You can read these arguments in the previous threads. As I've said before, a public voting should've been held.

 

For two, as much as I dont like it, I really don't think @Munya @Kyu and the devs in general would love to kill the single most used team archetype in doubles: Setup kingdra + chomp. Much love.

Edited by iJulian
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7 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I'm sure they care a lot about Doubles yeah

Kyu said in their eyes it is the default secondary metagame after OU.

 

They've previously nerfed niche strats in dubs in favour of ou (baton pass) yeah but I doubt they'd do the same to the single most used core. I guess we'll see.

 

Even then, speaking of ou alone, banning sd on chomp is also dumb. People just need to learn to stop thinking of the game as if it was still generation 3 where you had a designated counter for every single mon lol.

Edited by iJulian
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10 minutes ago, iJulian said:

For one, it's widely argued that garchomp, as is, was NOT broken. You can read these arguments in the previous threads. As I've said before, a public voting should've been held.

afbeelding.png.25b7a5d0fd5853f71b166e921fb99fb8.png

Garchomp is present in 48.7% of winning Teams in Tournaments, whereas the #2 (Scizor) is at 33.08% (Difference of over 15%).

This is a massive difference and indicates beyond any doubt that Garchomp is not balanced at the moment.

It's not an easy to interpret piece of statistic, but the message it gives is clear as daylight: Garchomp is broken.

 

Side note:

I was one of the 2 TC members who voted against the ban.

Personally I would've only complex banned Swords Dance on it immediately, because I agree with the Devs that Ubers shouldn't exist when tools exist to nerf.

 

Also to the people claiming that each TC member needs to be actively participating in public debates to create transparancy, I will just say that's unlikely to happen.

Gbwead is being berated in public for his opinion, he has thick skin and can handle himself well.

Some TC members do not care to be publically berated for their opinions, which is totally fine as well. They contribute to Tier Council discussions internally and no obligation towards anyone else but Munya/Darkshade and Devs.

 

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49 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

afbeelding.png.25b7a5d0fd5853f71b166e921fb99fb8.png

Garchomp is present in 48.7% of winning Teams in Tournaments, whereas the #2 (Scizor) is at 33.08% (Difference of over 15%).

This is a massive difference and indicates beyond any doubt that Garchomp is not balanced at the moment.

It's not an easy to interpret piece of statistic, but the message it gives is clear as daylight: Garchomp is broken.

 

Oh damn, I didn't know!

 

wait...

 

Capture.PNG.6304658c17d558f0523e6933e39df8aa.PNG

 

I guess the SSOU council better quickban Clefable! hurry go tell them! I guess they aren't smart enough to realise than a ~15% usage difference is a massive difference and indicates beyond any doubt that Clefable is not balanced at the moment. It gives  a message clear as daylight: Clefable is broken.

Edited by iJulian
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8 minutes ago, iJulian said:

Oh damn, I didn't know!

 

Capture.PNG.f23ecb4aea72bdfe0dbd338555fb2475.PNG

 

I guess the SSOU council better quickban Clef, pult and corv! hurry go tell them I guess they aren't smart enough to realise than a 15% usage difference gives  a message clear as daylight: Clef is broken.

#1 this looks disgusting

#2 If Clefable got 68% usage with only 61 use, it means there is hardly any data here, so large usage gaps like 15% are not surprising. The tournament usage presented by munya is more reliable than your table.

Edited by gbwead
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5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

#1 this looks disgusting

#2 If Clefable got 68% usage with only 61 use, it means there is hardly any usage here, so large usage gaps like 15% are not surprising. The tournament usage presented by munya is more reliable than your table.

This is the smogons world cup usage, which in a single team has better players than probably the entire mmo playerbase conbined so no, I'd argue their stats are way more saying.

 

Edit: The screenshot you replied to was the pre-dlc usage which I changed for the world cup usage date which I feel is more representative, it now has the same gap but in close to a 300 game sample size.

Edited by iJulian
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6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Don't waste your time with filth like us then.

I updated the table with the post dlc wc stats before you replied, same gap, same Clef usage, it now has stats way closer to ours if that satysfies you (300ish games). No go ahead and tell their TC how you are smarter and more knoleadgeable than them in pokemon and how you discover that such a gap in usage proves beyond any reasonable doubts than a pokemon is broken and should be banned. Poor clef!, Im sure it'll be missed once you manage to convince them of your very solid usage based argument :D

 

But thats besides the point. usage does NOT mean that a mon id broken (in tyrogues words). but the fact that TC thinks it does, the fact that you cant make basic assessments based on team preview, the fact that TC has 2 members who dont play the game and 6 total. That is what worries me. It is dissapointing, shameful and you have shown time and time again that you are not qualified to make metagame decisions. 

 

Forget garchomp, it is TC who needs a ban/reform. @Munya

Edited by iJulian
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2 minutes ago, iJulian said:

I updated the table with the post dlc wc stats before you replied, same gap, same Clef usage, it now has stats way closer to ours if that satysfies you.

 

But thats besides the point. usage does NOT mean that a mon id broken (in tyrogues words). but the fact that TC thinks it does, the fact that you cant make basic assessments based on team preview, the fact that TC has 2 members who dont play the game and 6 total. That is what worries me. It is dissapointing, shameful and you have shown time and time again that you are not qualified to make metagame decisions. 

 

Forget garchomp, it is TC who needs a ban/reform. @Munya

First off, what was shown is not simple usage. It's usage from winning teams. That's not insignificant at all. TC banned chomp without these stats being shown, so I don't know what you are talking about when you say "TC thinks it does". I actually corrected your flawed analysis and instead of counter arguing, you just started attacking me, so it says more about your inability to argue than my capacity to analyse our metagame.

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Garchomp SD es un problema, desde el buen tamaño que tiene para impulsar a muchos Pokémon, hasta la escritura que tiene con una baya de yache.

Daré mis razones por las cuales la danza de la espada es un problema con algunos cálculos. Primero diré tus 2 counter más estables Umbreon y mandibuzz, ambos pueden entrar antes de un +2 y rematar garchomp con juego sucio (+2 252 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-201 (92.3 - 109.8%) - 56.3% de probabilidad de OHKO) Hay una probabilidad de aguantar, por lo que no es tan estable umbreon, mandibuzz rocky helmet si asegura el ko

 

Procedamos con otras paredes. Cofagrigus : +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 96-114 (58.1 - 69%) - 2HKO garantizado después de la recuperación de Leftovers 

Vemos que se puede hacer algo, aguanta la danza se vuelve niebla, y surge el problema si es el conjunto de danza de espada sustituto (que es muy común) se procederá a un juego mental 50/50 en el que cofagrigus debe decidir si desea ir w-o-w o golpear una bola de sombra para romper el sustituto (el hex no rompe el sustituto) una mala predicción y sería una caída para cofagrigus

 

Hippowdon

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake frente a 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 111-132 (51.6 - 61.3%) - 2HKO garantizado

Con hippowdon es un caso diferente, mantiene la eq en +2 pero el problema es verse obligado a usar rugido para sacarlo de la caja, jugando algo aleatorio, ya que puede entrar un mon que lo obliga a cambiar y por lo tanto no puede recuperarse, el punto es que hipowdon debilitado solo significará que el otro garchomp de entrada volverá a entrar y acabará con el hipopótamo, enfatizo que el colmillo de hielo no lo convierte en ko, así que es una mala idea (8 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 116-140 (63.3 - 76.5%) - garantizado 2HKO)

 

Ferrothorn

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 102-121 (56.3 - 66.8%) - 2HKO garantizado después de la recuperación de Leftovers 

Este sin mas que decir cae de 2 eq y gyroball no lo derriba

 

Gliscor *

+2252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 85-102 (46.9 - 56.3%) - 80.9% de probabilidad de 2HKO

Con gliscor es un porcentaje de 2 golpes con garra de dragón a +2 por cierto, la defensa completa no se usa casi para tomar evs en velocidad, pero es para calcular, pero no se puede bajar, (0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs .0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 104-124 (56.8 - 67.7%) - 2HKO garantizado) o contar 2 golpes de casco rocoso es matar, la otra opción es posar spam y debilitarlo con casco rocoso es una opción, así que esta se merece una mención de honor (La forma de descargarlo es muy concreta, sí.) Si el garchomp ve eso y va otro SD, es hora de rezar

 

Skarmory *

este si puede manejar la danza de la espada sub garchomp.

 

Milotic

+2252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs 252 HP / 220+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 100-118 (49.5 - 58.4%) - 2HKO garantizado después del daño por quemaduras

Milotic full defense falls from 2 earthquakes, in addition to the fact that ice beam is not guaranteed to kill him, only 6% (0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 156-184 (85.2 - 100.5%) - 6.3% chance to OHKO)

 

 

 

Now I will proceed with the revenge killers, taking into account the yache berry

 

Jolteon:

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 104-124 (56.8 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Infernape:

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 138-163 (75.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Mienshao*:

252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-199 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Honorary mention because it has a probability of more than 50 to lower it

 

Starmie*:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 127-151 (69.3 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

*This does not fall from an earthquake until a certain part of the check is excellent

 

 

Salamence and Hydreigon*

*these 2 if you download them from draco meteor scarf

Psdt: I would put the priorities but it is already a lot of text, I will only say that neither mamoswine cb eliminates it (252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 116-140 (63.3 - 76.5%) - guaranteed 2HKO)

 

 

Edited by Huargensy
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3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

First off, what was shown is not simple usage. It's usage from winning teams. That's not insignificant at all. TC banned chomp without these stats being shown, so I don't know what you are talking about when you say "TC thinks it does". I actually corrected your flawed analysis and instead of counter arguing, you just started attacking me, so it says more about your inability to argue than my capacity to analyse our metagame.

You said the usage I showed wasn't realiable, which it is. You didnt respond to my actual argument which is that a high usage does NOT mean that a pokemon is broken or banworthy. 

 

"TC thinks it does" mean that, literally, TC thinks it does . In tyrones words from just a couple of posts above:

 

34 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Garchomp is present in 48.7% of winning Teams in Tournaments, whereas the #2 (Scizor) is at 33.08% (Difference of over 15%).

This is a massive difference and indicates beyond any doubt that Garchomp is not balanced at the moment.

It's not an easy to interpret piece of statistic, but the message it gives is clear as daylight: Garchomp is broken.

 

Change Garchomp for Clefable and go ahead try and make the exact same argument in the smogons forums: you'll get laughed as they show you the way to the door.

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1 minute ago, iJulian said:

You said the usage I showed wasn't realiable, which it is. You didnt respond to my actual argument which is that a high usage does NOT mean that a pokemon is broken or banworthy. 

 

"TC thinks it does" mean that, literally, TC thinks it does . In tyrones words from just a couple of posts above:

 

Change Garchomp for Clefable and go ahead try and make the exact same argument in the smogons forums: you'll get laughed as they show you the way to the door.

I said it was less reliable because that's litteraly 90 games which is nothing. No one claimed that high usage means a pokemon is banworthy. Literally no one. You misread what tyrone said which is why I pointed out to you that winning team usage and regular usage are not the same thing. 

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