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October-Movement Discussion Thread


Munya

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lo primero que me viene a la mente cuando dicen que roserade es bronzor, vullaby no se salva de roserade, con rocas es 2hit ko casi seguro

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 118-140 (34.4 - 40.8%) - 51.2% de probabilidad de 2HKO después de Stealth Rock

y digo eso porque probablemente el desempañador de su equipo va a ser vullaby, así que no puedo encontrarlo como una respuesta consistente, por otro lado mencionadoé una más. respuesta a esto, cryogonal

252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cryogonal: 109-130 (30 - 35.8%) - 3HKO garantizado después de la recuperación de Stealth Rock y Leftovers

el otro que me viene a la mente es munchlax, por otro lado, usar bronzor es arriesgado, cosas como drapion lo único que darás es darles un impulso gratis

Creo que es el mejor momento para sugerir una prueba sospechosa votando con los mejores jugadores de NU y conociendo el objetivo actual entre los 100 mejores + 70%. Ratio de victorias

Edited by Huargensy
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I won't join any side this time, cause I myself am split, however:
Pokemmo: Please plebs, we have to deal with pokemon with no counters, its part of the metagame. Plenty of mons doesnt have counters, doesnt mean they should be banned.

Also Pokemmo: Roserade has no counters, please ban.

My point is: Please be coherent. I see a lot of bias in every single post. The moment you set an argument, make sure you still use that argument for other pokemon in other tiers, under similar circumstances.

Thank you, now feel free to keep arguing.

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Just now, Zymogen said:

Look at the disparity in the number of games each of them are used in. Sample size is very important in statistics.

Unfortunately... That's not my point, here... 

Yes, Pilo has a low usage rate, but the winrate means something when you're comparing the numbers.

Rotom has a higher percentage in winrate compared to Roserade. 

We're talking about who the big threat in NU is, right? 

What about Rhyperior? What about Spiritomb? 

 

I mean, generally, if you (anyone in general, not you personally) view Roserade as a threat, having a spinner/defogger would be necessary and is an option in countering Roserade. I still go with mons like Charizard & Golbat, especially in the event you have one like mine that uses Extrasensory. With Charizard being weak to rocks, it would make sense to have a spinner/defogger on your team. I feel that looking at it in a broader perspective, as it's clear there are multiple ways you can deal with a Roserade, is important. There are multiple calcs shown as it is. I feel that the situation with Roserade doesn't even compare to the one where people actually had troubles countering Garchomp in OU.

 

Like, I'm even considering a Pilo, ya feel? 

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2 minutes ago, Khasyotic said:

Unfortunately ... That's not my point, here ... 

Yes, Pilo has a low usage rate, but the winrate means something when you're comparing the numbers.

But in order to meaningfully compare said numbers, the sample size needs to be similar. This is exactly the point

 

3 minutes ago, Khasyotic said:

I mean, generally, if you (anyone in general, not you personally) view Roserade as a threat, having a spinner / defogger would be necessary and is an option in countering Roserade. I still go with mons like Charizard & Golbat, especially in the event you have one like mine that uses Extrasensory. With Charizard being weak to rocks, it would make sense to have a spinner / defogger on your team. I feel that looking at it in a broader perspective, as it's clear there are multiple ways you can deal with a Roserade, is important.

Yes, these are basic teambuilding principles which are a given and needn't be mentioned in these kinds of discussions

 

4 minutes ago, Khasyotic said:

ya feel? 

No not really sorry

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1 minute ago, Zymogen said:

But in order to meaningfully compare said numbers, the sample size needs to be similar. This is exactly the point

 

Yes, these are basic teambuilding principles which are a given and needn't be mentioned in these kinds of discussions

 

No not really sorry

I mean, teambuilding is a factor in winning, so... And you completely missed my point. There's a reason why Pilo has low usage and high winrate. 

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1 hour ago, Zymogen said:

I think the tournament usage statistics posted by Munya are fairly representative of the viability of the checks you named - Drapion goes without saying because it's one of the best pokemon in the tier at the moment, but as Titinn mentioned it is shaky as a defensive check to Roserade as the timid life orb set has a chance to 2hko Drapion with sludge bomb without rocks, and in order to kill Roserade back Drapion has to rely on hitting a crit with night slash. Additionally, it is grounded so is weak to both spikes and stealth rocks, and it typically has no leftovers recovery.

 

Golbat is great against choiced Roserade sets. Not so much against life orb. So far I've seen one Careful Golbat but imo running a SpDef nature removes most of Golbat's better qualities, including its speed, because it is much better suited as a physical wall than a special one. Not to mention it's also still 2hko'd by LO extrasensory with rocks on the field.

 

Mantine is also one of the more viable pokemon at the moment so I will agree with this in its entirety, seeing as you also acknowledged that it's not perfect due to its susceptibility to hazards and sludge bomb poison.

 

I'm in two minds about Bronzor as it is a mon that either walls your opponent's entire team, or is a sitting duck for setup; its ability to check Roserade can't be ignored, but I feel like Bronzor's viability is entirely match up dependent given that it only has Psywave and Toxic to punish switches in a meta that is saturated with poison and dark types. It also doesn't punish Roserade itself at all.

 

Vullaby has the highest usage out of the more niche checks you mentioned, at 2.07%. Defensively it isn't terrible as it has a decent typing and respectable bulk, but its weakness to hazards, sludge bomb poison and lack of leftovers recovery really hinder it. I accept that it is less of a sitting duck than some of Roserade's other checks as it has access to strong stab in Brave Bird, and also Foul Play which can cripple a lot of physically attacking threats which would be inclined to switch in on it. I guess its real niche is on sand teams, but imo that's about it. 

 

I know you and other SIA players personally like it, but imo Drifblim really doesn't have much viability outside of sub/acro/bp/wow, which it isn't exactly a stellar moveset. There are a lot of rotoms/rhydons/spiritombs/gigaliths/golems/eels/manecs in this meta, it has no viable recovery and again is susceptible to stealth rocks, and I think that this is reflected in the statistics. Feel free to enlighten me here though, as I haven't really looked into what Drifblim can even do.

 

Skuntank I personally like as a method of hazard control, and I previously have used it a lot as my main check to roserade and ghosts in particular. It punishes roserade well if you choose to use pursuit, and has access to nice support moves such as haze, defog, taunt, and sucker punch, but honestly it doesn't do much more than that. Not to mention it is grounded and lacks recovery outside of black sludge. In terms of overall viability, I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's not viable, but it certainly is very pressured. It is probably one of the best examples of 4 move slot syndrome and therefore, much like Bronzor, its success is very match up dependent. Additionally many mons such as Drapion, Rhydon, Toxicroak, Golem, Steelix, Gigalith and Spiritomb (and more) resist either one or both of its stab typings and can easily offensively pressure it. 

 

I'm personally not a fan of Metang. It's bulky and can pursuit trap Roserades and Ghosts, but I just don't think it really has a place in this meta. 

 

Just my 2 cents.

Am unable to separate quote as im mobile, but now, with rhyperior out of the tier, I'd say drapion is back to being very viable on the meta, and funnily enough, bronzor is usually setup bait for drapion. Im also not very fond of driflim on our meta besides on very specific teams for sub bp. Thing is also like you mentioned, besides bronzor which is able to answer every set, there isnt a clear answer to the sleep powder/scarf/life orb/defensive and so on, on the tier. 

 

If you are able to scout for no hp fire, escavalier isnt a bad mon aswell to help deal with roserade

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I would sell my NUs if I were you guys. 

 

I think Roserade being a problem for NU was argued months ago, and based off of the comments of everyone, it still is.  My best argument for it right now is one of those "I know it when I see it" situations.  The reason that that's my best argument is because I believe that the language or rule that Senile put forward for what is deemed to be "offensive uber" is outdated.  It is outdated because the language back then applied to a metagame that is vastly different from what we have now.  Because the language is also outdated, it's very hard to convince someone of why a certain pokemon is banworthy since there is no intelligible principle one can follow to convince the other of why a mon is banworthy.  People's criteria for whether something is banworthy changes depending on the mon, and so there should be a revamp of the Tier Policies that looks at what possible ways a mon can be banworthy.

 

There are so many factors to consider if something could be banworthy:

 

1) Its ability to constantly come in and pick up a kill

2) Its ability to be punished after picking up a kill

3) The ease with which it can set up, and potentially sweep.

4) The lack of available counters / checks

5) The ability of the pokemon to invalidate a certain playstyle

6) The base stats + ability of the pokemon if it enables it to be stronger than without that ability

7) While this may not be dispositive, usage and winrate is something that could be looked into.

8) The impact of the pokemon on the meta such that players start using certain answers to deal with that pokemon and these players probably would not use these answers in the meta if not for said pokemon

Edited by NikhilR
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4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I think Roserade being a problem for NU was argued months ago, and based off of the comments of everyone, it still is.  My best argument for it right now is one of those "I know it when I see it" situations.  The reason that that's my best argument is because I believe that the language or rule that Senile put forward for what is deemed to be "offensive uber" is outdated.  It is outdated because the language back then applied to a metagame that is vastly different from what we have now.

I agree with the sentiment that the definition of an Uber is severely outdated. Its best appliance was maybe for ADV, like 15 years back. I've wanted to make a post about it too but this is basically it. Competitive pokemon grows more complex in every generation and what makes something unbalanced has changed quite a bit because of it.

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12 minutes ago, ThinkNicer said:

By that definition we should ban Scizor. Usage stats are helpful but they are a small part of the conversation.

Not really when looking at these particular stats, Scizor does not appear on over 10% more of the winning teams than the next highest pokemon like Roserade does.  It only barely beats out Hydreigon/Conkeldurr

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