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Rache

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I think we need a Shedinja clause or something. Shedinja is already so unbalanced in randoms as you can't prepare for it (keep the pokemon you need to not lose to it), but when things like this can happen, I think it's a problem.

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No single move can touch Shedinja. None. As soon they showed Shedinja, I lost. In this case not even PP stalling with Curse Lickilicky as they had 2 phasers.

I don't know what the solution would be, maybe a complete ban since it has been a problem on multiple occasions.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Would you consider a different approach for tiering than putting levels up or down ? I feel like there are quite a few mons where they sucks ass with 2/3 of their sets but then destroy everything with one particular set and it becomes OP because the pokemon level is high as most of the times it's bad with the other sets. 

 

Do you think scaling level with the pokemon set can be a viable option for pokemon that have way more Winrate for one of their sets compared to others ? Just one example out of my memory, Quiver Dance Beautifly life orb, that shit hits like a truck, 100 base sp atk, pokemon lvl 88 cos all its other sets are bad (specs/scarf Sash mainly)

Edited by Poufilou
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1 hour ago, Poufilou said:

Would you consider a different approach for tiering than putting levels up or down ? I feel like there are quite a few mons where they sucks ass with 2/3 of their sets but then destroy everything with one particular set and it becomes OP because the pokemon level is high as most of the times it's bad with the other sets. 

 

Do you think scaling level with the pokemon set can be a viable option for pokemon that have way more Winrate for one of their sets compared to others ? Just one example out of my memory, Quiver Dance Beautifly life orb, that shit hits like a truck, 100 base sp atk, pokemon lvl 88 cos all its other sets are bad (specs/scarf Sash mainly)

At some point I'll go through the existing sets and adjust some of the ones that are under-performing and remove any that I don't think are salvageable, I'll likely do this sometime after gen 5 species are added as a lot of builds will be better or worse in that meta. I'd prefer not to reduce a Pokemon's possible sets to only their best one unless absolutely necessary though, making them unpredictable was one of the major goals.

 

For Beautifly, it has two builds, one with Quiver Dance and one with U-Turn. Their win rates are almost identical this month (48.99% vs 49.00%), so there's no reason to remove either of them, lv88 is appropriate for both.

 

Cases where a single build on a Pokemon is much better than the rest are already mostly handled by the monthly level adjustments. If an individual build has a winrate over 54%, its level goes down regardless of how bad the rest of its builds are. As an example, Dragonite's best right now is its Dragon Dance set with a 55.51% winrate, ~4% higher than its second best set. The average winrate of its species is 48.29%, but if its DD set's winrate stays where it is, it'll still be reduced to lv72 next month. Its worst set is its support-focused one with a 42.93% winrate, it's gotten a lot worse over time due to the level reductions resulting from its better sets so it would be a good candidate for adjustment or removal later on if it stays this poor.

 

On 5/8/2022 at 8:32 AM, Bertolfoso said:

No single move can touch Shedinja. None. As soon they showed Shedinja, I lost. In this case not even PP stalling with Curse Lickilicky as they had 2 phasers.

I don't know what the solution would be, maybe a complete ban since it has been a problem on multiple occasions.

We can potentially guarantee that teams facing Shedinja have at least one way to beat it, but we won't be removing the species entirely, losing sometimes due to poor matchup is an intended part of the format. Shedinja should become less common as more species are introduced though, the rest of gen 4 will be coming next update.

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On 5/21/2022 at 6:09 AM, Rache said:

We can potentially guarantee that teams facing Shedinja have at least one way to beat it, but we won't be removing the species entirely, losing sometimes due to poor matchup is an intended part of the format. Shedinja should become less common as more species are introduced though, the rest of gen 4 will be coming next update.

when it says "Shedinja clasule", it says that all teams must have at least 2 moves that can hit shedinja, if opponent rolled one.

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When i play randoms and get Unown, your HP type is Psychic on most part of cases, rarely are Fight. Is intentional or a issue, or only bad luck? And, if are intentional, for why reason the HP type of Unown isn't randomized?

Edited by caioxlive13
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28 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

When i play randoms and get Unown, your HP type is Psychic on most part of cases, rarely are Fight. Is intentional or a issue, or only bad luck? And, if are intentional, for why reason the HP type of Unown isn't randomized?

It's intentional, it's weighted to pull Hidden Power Psychic most of the time as that's its only potential STAB move. Making it less common would be a huge nerf to an already weak species.

 

Occasionally it pulls Fighting or Bug despite the loss of power to make it slightly less predictable. These two types were chosen as they're each super effective against two of Dark / Psychic / Steel, the types that resist HP Psychic, making them the most likely types to hit something for super effective damage. If it pulled a random type instead, it would rarely be as punishing to switch in something that resists its most common move.

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Will there be any improvement to the matchmaking itself ? I keep fighting against novice trainers with 400 ELO or so while having 750+. It's especially annoying in randoms because you can lose very easely to noobs that just happen to have one pokemon that you can't kill. It's losing 5 ELO or winning 0.5... I don't mind waiting more time to match against someone that is worth battling. I'm talking about players that don't know pokemon abilities, STAB, that try to toxic your sub pokemon, sacrifice their win condition... even if you win 95% time it's still frustrating to have that one lose that you need to beat like 10 more others like them to cover the loss. Obviously that's how it works, I'm just saying it feels more interesting when you lose/gain points of ppl that's about your level. 

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6 hours ago, Poufilou said:

Will there be any improvement to the matchmaking itself ? I keep fighting against novice trainers with 400 ELO or so while having 750+. It's especially annoying in randoms because you can lose very easely to noobs that just happen to have one pokemon that you can't kill. It's losing 5 ELO or winning 0.5... I don't mind waiting more time to match against someone that is worth battling. I'm talking about players that don't know pokemon abilities, STAB, that try to toxic your sub pokemon, sacrifice their win condition... even if you win 95% time it's still frustrating to have that one lose that you need to beat like 10 more others like them to cover the loss. Obviously that's how it works, I'm just saying it feels more interesting when you lose/gain points of ppl that's about your level. 

I suggest this type of balancing on other tiers(Because players novice always lose to top rank, and if for some reason win, Top rank go down on elo much quickly.)

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50 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

I suggest this type of balancing on other tiers(Because players novice always lose to top rank, and if for some reason win, Top rank go down on elo much quickly.)

This is less of a problem in other tiers, because you have way more control on how you handle the game. Unless you're being super duper haxed, you have all the tools in hands. In Randoms, sometimes even if the player does the wrong choices, you still lose, because you don't have the tools to win. If you choke against novice player in OU, too bad, maybe you deserve that ELO drop, but if you just get 6-0 by some belly drum charizard with a team 6x weak to fire and flying and sit through the pain, it's not just accepting your fate, which is a most part of Randoms, but knowing that this one game could have been -3 ELO instead -5 and it wouldn't have changed anything to it. 

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7 hours ago, Poufilou said:

It's especially annoying in randoms because you can lose very easely to noobs that just happen to have one pokemon that you can't kill. It's losing 5 ELO or winning 0.5...

This is a fair point. For randoms only, next update we'll reduce the penalty for losing to someone significantly below your ELO due to the lack of teambuilding.

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4 hours ago, Poufilou said:

This is less of a problem in other tiers, because you have way more control on how you handle the game. Unless you're being super duper haxed, you have all the tools in hands. In Randoms, sometimes even if the player does the wrong choices, you still lose, because you don't have the tools to win. If you choke against novice player in OU, too bad, maybe you deserve that ELO drop, but if you just get 6-0 by some belly drum charizard with a team 6x weak to fire and flying and sit through the pain, it's not just accepting your fate, which is a most part of Randoms, but knowing that this one game could have been -3 ELO instead -5 and it wouldn't have changed anything to it. 

Each tier have your reason to balancing. On OU, is more because of low elo earned by top rank and high elo lost, and to avoid novices to found multiples top ranks quickly and give up from pvp, at same time that you avoid face novices, and face someone of your level. On Randoms, is simply because... It's randoms, oponent's team can have a shedinja and you rolled a team with NOTHING to hit him. 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Maybe this is just a complaint coming from the fact that I am really addicted to showdown randoms and the standards they set there, but I really do not like the sets like physical Ludicolo or special (insert mon that excells at attack). Mainly for two different reasons:

 

1. The inability sometimes to correctly predict if something is attack/sp attack focused to correctly tank and counter it. I know Rache put her reasoning much earlier in the thread that they like this being added to the randomness guessing game, but personally it just feels really bad to play against when you wind up pulling out a Blissey against something that you typically would expect to use special attack moves.

 

2. It really doesn't take advantage of the full potential of certain monsters. I'm fine that some sets aren't direct copy and paste straight from smogon, as I mainly play randoms for much more interesting gameplay compared to other tiers. I'm not sure if these "opposite attacking" mons are purposely put on a team for balancing measures, or it actually has nothing to do with how they are weighed on a team. If the latter is true though, I really think some of these sets should be looked into a bit differently as certain mons just do better sticking to what their most advantageous attack/sp attack stat is.

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  • 3 weeks later...

A question? The following mons received new builds(due to changes on sets and their imediate impact on pvp) and level adjusts?

(Note: i will only list the ones that growth on regular tiers with the changes, so i will not count for example, Pichu Lighting Rod, and i will not list mons that aren't implemented, like serperior. )

Spoiler

Venusaur - Gained Chrolophyll, open a lot of possibilities with Sunny day sets or abusing from a opposing sun.
Feraligatr - Gained Sheer Force, this make the already existing sets more dangerous, due to big amount of secondary effects on moves.
Weezing - Gained Neutralizing Gas(The name that devs put is Reactive gas, but effects are the same), that make it more useful vs mons that abuse from their abilitys.
Machamp - Gained Mach Punch & Drain Punch, making it a version worse of Conkeldurr, but with the difference being almost nothing.
Espeon - Gained Magic Bounce, basically making status condition moves, like Thunder Wave/Taunt , or Hazards, like stealth rock or spikes, a thing that are very common on randoms, useless against you, and have the bonus factor of bouncing defog back, making him don't clean screens, that espeon can potentially set up.

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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10 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

A question? The following mons received new builds(due to changes on sets and their imediate impact on pvp) and level adjusts?

(Note: i will only list the ones that growth on regular tiers with the changes, so i will not count for example, Pichu Lighting Rod, and i will not list mons that aren't implemented, like serperior. )

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Mach and Drain Punch are already included in Machamp's builds along with the other moves introduced during the same update. The new abilities and currently available HAs will be usable in randoms next update.

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4 hours ago, Rache said:

Mach and Drain Punch are already included in Machamp's builds along with the other moves introduced during the same update. The new abilities and currently available HAs will be usable in randoms next update.

any mon subject to level shift if gain a new ability(like imediate tiershift)

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  • 1 month later...

The act of capturing, raising, and forming a bond with your monster is a fundamental part of the experience. It's what makes your journey unique and your team special. Here where the idea is to immerse yourself in a second reality, there's a strong desire for the monster you use to be a reflection of your efforts and achievements.

Edited by MightyMichele
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2 hours ago, MightyMichele said:

Two Arguments For Random

 

It is not designed for MMO. 

Out of Storyline the Pokemons in the game are Breed or Met. How dare the system generate them for every battle? Where is the feeling behind the Pokemon you got? I remember my first 5x31 Salamence and use brought significance to my fight. Random Pokemon are just phantoms.

 

Where do these Pokemon pop from?

Who is providing these Pokemon? How can they free/rent? Nobody gives Pokemons for free in this game at least you have to catch it. So, make a plan for rent in PokeYen to join randoms (100k per week).

 

Solution to give feeling to random: Add a Random Quizz (Obligatory) where a player select its preferences in competitive, he can choose Pokemon Types, Style of Fight, in order to customize the upcoming receive Pokemon from a specific Pool.

 

So I can select I like Wall, I like offensive, I like Normal than Ghost, I select 5 types of pokemon I like, 5 type of damage and make my random Personality.

 

Just like in Twitter you choose the subject of the news you are gonna read (Entertainment, politics etc.) In randoms you choose the kind of Pokemon and moves.

That would kinda defeat the whole purpose of the format being, you know, Randoms.

 

It could be implemented as a separate mode, but that would essentially give players 0 incentive to build their own teams and play, since they can just select a playstyle, and get a team to fit.

Edited by LucasLyn5
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@LucasLyn5

Read again. My point is not customize RANDOMS. That I agree could be a bad idea so I removed.

 

I talk about the sentiment of have your own Pokemons to fight.

Random Pokemon are ghosts without sentiment.

Where do the Pokemon came from??????

who is paying to let you use them for free????

The system shouldn't provide Pokemons in a MMO, we have to catch them.

 

 

This is my contest.
 

 

When someone come with a idea you just thank it dont say that it is a bad idea. I am a very creative being and if you come and say that my idea is bad you are making me think that I should not be creative again because my ideas are bad.

 

When someone has a bad idea, you just say oh different idea this one... Very different. Though you don't need to say: BAD IDEA!

 

And when I have bad ideas I can agree with it, and rethink about it and understand the situation with more attention.

Edited by MightyMichele
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1 hour ago, MightyMichele said:

@LucasLyn5

Read again. My point is not customize RANDOMS. That I agree could be a bad idea so I removed.

 

I talk about the sentiment of have your own Pokemons to fight.

Random Pokemon are ghosts without sentiment.

Where do the Pokemon came from??????

who is paying to let you use them for free????

The system shouldn't provide Pokemons in a MMO, we have to catch them.

 

 

This is my contest.
 

 

When someone come with a idea you just thank it dont say that it is a bad idea. I am a very creative being and if you come and say that my idea is bad you are making me think that I should not be creative again because my ideas are bad.

 

When someone has a bad idea, you just say oh different idea this one... Very different. Though you don't need to say: BAD IDEA!

 

And when I have bad ideas I can agree with it, and rethink about it and understand the situation with more attention.

You took it the entirely wrong way. I appreciate you coming up with ideas. Please keep doing that, and please keep being creative.

Having 1 or 2 bad ideas doean't mean you only have bad ideas. I really liked your suggestion about personal status messages. The share player suggestion is also pretty nice.

 

That being said, it still doesn't shy away from the fact, that your original idea of being able to choose your team is a bad idea. That defeats the core purpose of the game mode. But that's enough of that, you already deleted iy.

I'm also glad you came up with the other idea, however, I don't think that would work either, as; The idea of Randoms is that you cannot control anything. You simply get a team, and have to try and do good with it. So the pay-off for the mode being free, is that you have a big layer og RNG between you and your victory. Contrary to building your own team, which is expensive, you don't have that layer of RNG. You control every aspect of your team, meaning if it's bad, thats your fault, which is the payoff here in this case.

 

Making Randoms a mode you have to pay for, would simply incentivise people to only make their own teams, and not touch Randoms at all, making the mode completely useless. The balance as is, is already good enough in my honest opinion. People that want to gamble with a handicap while playing, play randoms, and those that are serious about winning every match, makes their own teams and plays OU/UU/NU/Doubles.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way either. It was constructive criticism 😄

Edited by LucasLyn5
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