Randoms Feedback / Discussion Thread

[OrangeManiac]

@MightyMichele 

First of all, you must really hate fun. And even more when other people are trying to have fun. This on its own should be enough to sum up everything you just said.

 

But drawing real-life economy comparisons like "no free lunch" to fan-made online Pokemon game isn't only ridiculous but also kinda sad. This game isn't real life, I hate to break it to you. Even if for whatever reason you wanted the economy of PokeMMO to be a simulation of real life in any way, you have like 100 bigger issues you should fix in MMO economy that are far more illogical than the concept of "Random battles". So don't even start that whole argument.

 

I wouldn't even need to defend Randoms because obviously what you just suggested about having to pay for Randoms or being event-limited will never happen but I am going to anyway - Random battles is a great way to allow new players to try playing competitive Pokemon before they need to invest time and effort to it to see if they would enjoy it. This was also discovered in Pokemon Showdown, where people don't even need to breed and raise Pokemon. In PokeMMO environment Randoms is arguably even more important because there is even bigger cost of getting all the resources to raise something you will find out you didn't enjoy after all.

[MightyMichele]

Hello @OrangeManiac

Before I reply your message, I have this another idea to random tier:

- make it exclusive to events/season tournament (in this case the generated Pokemon is a exclusive and temporary and justified acquire them).

 

I am a person that has fun in life and of course enjoy play with genetated Pokemon,  it is a good work. I just want to help to give a justification to Random generated monsters, so maybe there could make more sense where they came from. I thought in add a historic to it. Maybe a NPC could  charge for the random Pokemon.

 

I like games where you progress to get the Pokemons and when I see randoms I thought wow! I can have 0Pokemons and play it. isnt it too generous? 

 

I noticed that you said that my argument about no free lunch is ridiculous for you. It disqualified me and was too direct to me. Im not an agressive person if I would disagree with someone I would rather say this: Hey Michele, it is interesting to see how you think about it. Thank you for  your opinion. I like random how it is for this and this reasons. I hope this can clarify to you some points.

 

 

I got another idea for randoms:

 

customizable randoms.

You pick three or four type of move, type of Pokemon, style of battle and you get it sorted, in order to make less random than a full random. Just like you pick the genre of news you like to read (Sports, Politics...) You pick the type of Pokemon you like, for example: dragons

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by MightyMichele

[Draekyn]

31 minutes ago, MightyMichele said:

Hello @OrangeManiac

I am fun

Hi fun, I’m Drae

[MightyMichele]

1 minute ago, Draekyn said:

Hi fun, I’m Drae

I am Michele, sorry I am not a native English Speaker.

 

I mean, I am a person that has fun in life.

[Sargeste]

On 7/29/2022 at 5:52 PM, Raichuforyou said:

I feel like Vaccum Wave / Scarf is not a combo that needs to happen. I've seen some sets with Scarf/Extremespeed that make some sense, but it seems kind of like a wasted spot when Lucario could be having better coverage here.

This probably goes for any Scarf + priority sets.

Extremespeed is +2 priority. If anything it makes less sense than a +1 priority move to be on a Scarf set since you'll be moving before anything not also carrying Extremespeed. Vacuum Wave makes sense since there are plenty of faster pokemon with +1 priority that naturally outspeed it pre-Scarf boost.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Sargeste

[Raichuforyou]

1 hour ago, Sargeste said:

Vacuum Wave makes sense since there are plenty of faster pokemon with +1 priority that naturally outspeed it pre-Scarf boost.

Most priority moves are neutral damage, or Lucario is resistant to. Probably its biggest threat in your example are things carrying Mach Punch, which is typically on bulky fighting types, which Lucario doesn't want to fight anyway (and Lucario naturally outspeeds these anyway). I could see niche examples where you're wanting to beat the Machamp/Hitmonchan with mach punch and get the final blow on it... but again, way too niche, and it just ends up being a wasted moveslot especially when Aura Sphere is on this set as well.

[Sargeste]

Those mons were what I was thinking about with the previous post (along with others such as DD Crawdaunt). They can all boost their Speed (and in Crawdaunt's case, Attack too), which is when Scarf priority helps a lot.

 

I'd argue the final blow argument isn't as niche as it's made out to be given the importance of chip damage in the tier, especially in early game situations when you don't yet know your opponent's team. This carries over to other Scarf priority mons as well, not just Lucario.

 

It's situational yes, but I'd still rather have the priority option in case of a mon that's already set up instead of an extra coverage move (I suppose Psychic/Dragon Pulse would be the only other decent options for Lucario specifically).

Edited September 6, 2022 by Sargeste

[Edwardinho]

5 Pokemon weak to Ice type, my opponent had a Froslass Choice scarff. 🙂

[caioxlive13]

50 minutes ago, Edwardinho said:

5 Pokemon weak to Ice type, my opponent had a Froslass Choice scarff. 🙂

The mon that are fainted is dugtrio? If yes, your team doesn't have only 5 mons weak to ice, it have the entire team weak to ice.

Edited September 7, 2022 by caioxlive13

[hernjet]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

¿El mon que se desmayó es dugtrio? En caso afirmativo, su equipo no tiene solo 5 mons débil al hielo, tiene a todo el equipo débil al hielo.

is Probopass

[Sargeste]

Why is Substitute a move option on Pachirisu sets whose only attacking moves are U-turn and Super Fang?

 

Sub is useful when the set contains Discharge since you can knock mons out, but I don't want to be sitting behind a sub where my only options are 

 

1. Spam Toxic/Substitute

2. Press Super Fang until the sub breaks, then pivot out with U-turn

3. Press U-turn, making the sub a waste

 

I know Pachirisu is a pretty bad mon in general, but I think the set can be improved marginally by changing Substitute (at least for this set) to Discharge and just having it be your typical 3 attacks + Toxic set.

 

**Slight edit to this. I looked through my Randoms sets sheet and the 3 attacks + Toxic set already exists. The Substitute slot replaced Discharge. If Sub really needs to be on this set, why not have the Super Fang slot have Substitute in its randomization pool rather than taking the STAB away?

Edited September 20, 2022 by Sargeste

[Jgaw]

I hope things in random will be reviewed, u gotta give equal odds to both players, if u give à player stealth rock give thé other defog or rapid soin 

It s unfair to give à player rocks + spikes + toxic spikes and thé opponent ma3andou Ken wejh rabbi

I faced unfair team coûnters many times.. I faced a team where tangela has giga drain and my team is all weak to giga drain

Sometimes u find 4 times x moves against my team weakness 

While i don't have any coûnter moves 

W yar7am weldikom w rabbi ybarek fikom rahou rkeb zebby essokor mel 3sab 

[Sargeste]

4 hours ago, Jgaw said:

I hope things in random will be reviewed, u gotta give equal odds to both players, if u give à player stealth rock give thé other defog or rapid soin 

This part I have discussed with Rache before and I 100% agree with. I believe the argument was that it could give away opposing sets, but you can still get Rapid Spin/Defog and your opponent not have any hazards. And even if it was a guarantee that your opponent had hazards if you had RS/Defog, I don't think that very many people are going to be opposed to that. Games can easily be auto-losses in Randoms based purely on hazards.

 

4 hours ago, Jgaw said:

I faced unfair team coûnters many times.. I faced a team where tangela has giga drain and my team is all weak to giga drain

Sometimes u find 4 times x moves against my team weakness 

While i don't have any coûnter moves 

I have thought about this before (personally I had a nightmare match in PCL that was essentially the same story: 5x Fighting weakness) and I'm not entirely sure there could be much done to prevent this from happening.

 

Perhaps Rache could put something in place to limit the amount of mons weak to a single type to 3. However, there would have to be an extensive amount of testing done to see if this limit would consistently give away opposing team compositions.

[Sargeste]

Scizor sets containing Superpower should probably be updated. Close Combat is a wholly superior move.

[Poufilou]

Will HA be added to randoms in the next update and how many new sets will it create ? I know some pokemons already have HA movesets (like Nidoking) so I wonder if there would actually be new sets being added and if there are any HA that won't be in for balancing reasons. Could you give us some info on it ?

[Rache]

2 hours ago, Poufilou said:

Will HA be added to randoms in the next update and how many new sets will it create ? I know some pokemons already have HA movesets (like Nidoking) so I wonder if there would actually be new sets being added and if there are any HA that won't be in for balancing reasons. Could you give us some info on it ?

It won't be next update, but the available ones will be added to the format when I have more time to dedicate to it, and I haven't forgotten about Assault Gear either. New builds will be made for new options and old ones that are strictly outclassed by them will be updated or removed. Anything that received a large buff will have its level reduced to compensate.

 

Randoms will likely always be a few weeks or months behind all future HA releases to give them time to trickle into the game and an opportunity for players to familiarize themselves with what's new.

[deletee]

What is up with the abundance of gimmicky crit-me-not sweepers in randoms? It is seriously detrimental to the ladder and to some has made repeated games borderline unplayable.

 

There are far too many sets that are unviable outside of this hellish randoms meta PokeMMO has birthed. I mean really, we have countless throwaway sets showcasing defense boosting moves with rest, and that's fun?

 

It seems immensely counterintuitive to litter this gamemode with an absurd amount of sets that do not reward good plays, nor predictions, nor even a basic understanding of competitive play (because the sets are uncompetitive)! The cherry on top is how regularly we run into game states that result in mind-numblingly long battles that boil down to whoever can roll better RNG first. Yes, Pokémon will always be heavily influenced by RNG, and this is increased tenfold in a literally random metagame, however this is not the "wild card" factor we should aim for.

 

I'm shocked no one has remarked on how damaging this commonality is in a mode that, by design, is meant for a slightly more fast-paced and casual experience compared to other ladders. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by deletee

[Bertolfoso]

6 hours ago, deletee said:

I'm shocked no one has remarked on how damaging this commonality is in a mode that, by design, is meant for a slightly more fast-paced and casual experience compared to other ladders. 

On 11/12/2021 at 9:44 AM, Bertolfoso said:

Also I think builds like Stockpile Rest Dewgong, Amnesia-Iron Defense Relicanth/Gorebyss, Amnesia-Coil Dunsparce are kind of not fun to play against. 

 

And many other posts (I won't look for them). It has been talked about.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Bertolfoso

[caioxlive13]

7 hours ago, deletee said:

What is up with the abundance of gimmicky crit-me-not sweepers in randoms? It is seriously detrimental to the ladder and to some has made repeated games borderline unplayable.

 

There are far too many sets that are unviable outside of this hellish randoms meta PokeMMO has birthed. I mean really, we have countless throwaway sets showcasing defense boosting moves with rest, and that's fun?

 

It seems immensely counterintuitive to litter this gamemode with an absurd amount of sets that do not reward good plays, nor predictions, nor even a basic understanding of competitive play (because the sets are uncompetitive)! The cherry on top is how regularly we run into game states that result in mind-numblingly long battles that boil down to whoever can roll better RNG first. Yes, Pokémon will always be heavily influenced by RNG, and this is increased tenfold in a literally random metagame, however this is not the "wild card" factor we should aim for.

 

I'm shocked no one has remarked on how damaging this commonality is in a mode that, by design, is meant for a slightly more fast-paced and casual experience compared to other ladders. 

some mons with Crit-me-not sweeping sets is very, VERY weak at 0. Even with level boosts, still very weak, in order to compensate, they would put a lot of those sets. I agree that some sets must be removed, at least amnesia/Iron Defense of 4/5 sets that have it. Or remove it 100% and allow defense-buffing moves only with a offensive stat buffed too(Example: Calm Mind/Bulk Up) or Amnesia/Iron Defense only on Stored Power Sets(that require a good amount of buffs.)

Edited November 13, 2022 by caioxlive13

[Sargeste]

On 11/13/2022 at 2:35 PM, caioxlive13 said:

some mons with Crit-me-not sweeping sets is very, VERY weak at 0. Even with level boosts, still very weak, in order to compensate, they would put a lot of those sets. I agree that some sets must be removed, at least amnesia/Iron Defense of 4/5 sets that have it. Or remove it 100% and allow defense-buffing moves only with a offensive stat buffed too(Example: Calm Mind/Bulk Up) or Amnesia/Iron Defense only on Stored Power Sets(that require a good amount of buffs.)

A good idea for the mons who have these moves in their learnsets. For those that don't, removing recovery moves from crit-me-not sets could be a step in nerfing them.

[RysPicz]

I played 7 randbat games and I don't feel like doing it anymore. I didn't play a single game where either me or my opp didn't have a curse- rest  pokemon. Not fun anymore

[Sargeste]

@Rache Never thought about it before, but just had it happen to me in a game for the first time.

Since we want to avoid trapper leads, you might want to add Magnet Pull sets to the randomizer's lead shuffling. Had Air Balloon Probopass trap Choice Band Bastiodon and I basically did 0 to it. Instant 6-5.

[Poufilou]

Why is the Rotom triple type bug still not fixed ? 

[Munya]

What bug

[Poufilou]

 

Secondary type Rotom bypassing 2 same type rule. It's been here for a long time and already reported 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Poufilou