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July-2022 Movement Discussion


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1 hour ago, xMago said:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 129-152 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Crobat in Sun: 169-200 (88 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 125-148 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
when snorlax sleep , is gg venu

spdef lampent ez

 

on a more serious note, tentacruel can at least whittle venusaur down with liquid ooze to make it easier to revenge kill with priority

Edited by Zymogen
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20 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

spdef lampent ez

 

on a more serious note, tentacruel can at least whittle venusaur down with liquid ooze to make it easier to revenge kill with priority

Only priorities that can kill are Sucker Bisharp and ice shard mamo doesn't seem worth to run 2 mons to kill one

Edited by Poufilou
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6 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

Tenta + one of the 2 RK I mentioned. Just saying it's not an optimal answer but is definitely good to mention as you did. 

Both mamo and bisharp are already perfectly viable in the tier so it's not like their sole purpose would be specifically for venu.. I'm not saying this to justify venu staying in the tier, just confused by your original statement

Plus there're also arcanine, absol, zoro, staraptor, ambipom which all offer strong prio

However admittedly I also don't know much about UU speed tiers especially in relation to sun, so it may be the case that Venu is able to forfeit some speed for HP or defense EVs to combat prio RKs.. we shall see

Edited by Zymogen
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Yeye sorry I expressed badly. I feel like when in general two mons are required to deal with one (and not in a 100% way cos Venu bulky enough to survive some prio u mentioned depending on its HP removed) its problematic. But in any case whether it be from ooze dmg or LO recoil (assuming they couldn't recover with giga) there are priority RK out here, but, same, it isn't enough to justify it staying. 

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1 hour ago, Zymogen said:

spdef lampent ez

 

on a more serious note, tentacruel can at least whittle venusaur down with liquid ooze to make it easier to revenge kill with priority

Some venusaurs could run Earth Power so its not entirely safe
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 78-94 (41.7 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

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28 minutes ago, Onraider said:

Some venusaurs could run Earth Power so its not entirely safe
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 78-94 (41.7 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

True, in which case common walls such as crobat and bronzong wall it. You need to build a team that covers both possibilities - fortunately tenta and bronzong have good synergy and cover both sets in only 2 slots. Mono-STAB sets with giga/wb/ep would still shit on this core however.. maybe this set would be optimal actually

Edited by Zymogen
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I think every Venu will be running giga drain + weather ball + growth so zong and bat arent safe
but yea if sludge bomb is replaced with earth power rotom heat can manage venu but still it will be tricky to scout all this out without potentially losing a mon

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12 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

True, in which case common walls such as crobat and bronzong wall it. You need to build a team that covers both possibilities - fortunately tenta and bronzong have good synergy and cover both sets in only 2 slots. Mono-STAB sets with giga/wb/ep would still shit on this core however.. maybe this set would be optimal actually

I think every Venu will be running giga drain + weather ball + growth so zong and bat arent safe
but yea if sludge bomb is replaced with earth power rotom heat can manage venu but still it will be tricky to scout all this out without potentially losing a mon

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Players that are Talking about venusaur on UU, don't worry. Venusaur, Alongside with torkoal and Serperior, will go up to OU by themselves, all of them have beetween 7%-8% usage. Better track Rotom-Mow, 4,61% Usage, a bit more and he will fall to UU.

Edited by caioxlive13
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On 6/24/2022 at 4:18 PM, suigin said:

You need HP Fire for Scizor/Ferrothorn, Dragon Pulse for Dnite, Hydreigon and Salamence, Leech Seed+Sub for Blissey/Chansey and now the new Weezing and you also need HP Rock for Volcarona.

 

Yea agree. Especially stuff like Weezing and Blissey can beat it reliably, I later realized about the Weezing novelty

I wouldn't try to check it with a Dragon praying it doesn't carry Dragon Pulse, because it has no reason not to realistically 

I still think that Serperior is too good for UU, where it has no need for dragon moves and covers almost everything with HP Fire & Leaf Storm.
Most of its answers like Crobat actually hate to come into a Substitute and get Paralyze abused, besides RotomHeat which is thankfully a fairly common pokemon in the tier. Even tho an healthy Serperior can beat a standard Rotom thanks to Substitutes on Overheat, but whatever I guess it'll rise by usage at one point

About Venusaur I don't really know yet so I don't want to voice my opinion but appreciate what has been said so far

Edited by TohnR
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1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Keeping a close eye on Venusaur in UU with a sun setter present. Could get nasty. Also provide feedback on Empoleon in UU too. 

About Venusaur

On 7/2/2022 at 10:12 AM, caioxlive13 said:

Players that are Talking about venusaur on UU, don't worry. Venusaur, Alongside with torkoal and Serperior, will go up to OU by themselves, all of them have beetween 7%-8% usage. Better track Rotom-Mow, 4,61% Usage, a bit more and he will fall to UU.

About Empoleon:
In fact he can be a trouble, but the attention is bigger on Feraligatr, Serperior and Venusaur. Serperior and Venu will go to OU by themselves, Fera not.
 

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I've already found a workaround for Espeon magic bounce, and imo it's not so good to go to UU without testing. The check I've found is Golurk who has access to shadow punch, stealth rock and is bulky enough to take a hit from espeon and then proceed to OHKO. Espeon is also very frail, physical neutral hits can 2HKO it.

Edited by RenDude
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victree+torkoal has existed before, it's true that venu is a bit more bulky and fast and has access a more varied set on the physical side, but its the same imo, empoleon, crobat, rotom heat, mamoswine (eq, rocks and iceshard is a problem against a sun team) and snorlax are strongers mons in the meta and u need to prepare the field to sweep in late game if u can ofc

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What are people's thoughts on Magic Bounce Espeon as a screen setter in NU?

 

Espeon can set up and switch out using Baton Pass, avoiding pursuit trappers. It also can bounce back defog and other moves meaning screens will safely be up for at least 1-2 turns, so to me it's pretty similar to Electrode minus the amount of speed, yet Electrode got banned from NU.

 

I'm not saying that Espeon needs to be banned, of course there are scarf users and Sceptile who are faster, but it was just something which came to my head.

 

P.S. Not to mention Espeon was already a fantastic offensive powerhouse in the tier, especially with 2 more answers (Absol and Zoroark) moving up to UU.

Edited by Imperial
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2 hours ago, Imperial said:

What are people's thoughts on Magic Guard Espeon as a screen setter in NU?

 

Espeon can set up and switch out using Baton Pass, avoiding pursuit trappers. It also can bounce back defog and other moves meaning screens will safely be up for at least 1-2 turns, so to me it's pretty similar to Electrode minus the amount of speed, yet Electrode got banned from NU.

 

I'm not saying that Espeon needs to be banned, of course there are scarf users and Sceptile who are faster, but it was just something which came to my head.

 

P.S. Not to mention Espeon was already a fantastic offensive powerhouse in the tier, especially with 2 more answers (Absol and Zoroark) moving up to UU.

Things to Counter espeon will appear with the time. The problem is on the first days because everyone was been caught off guard. the thing is too overpowered on first day that this happen:
Imagem

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52 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Things to Counter espeon will appear with the time. The problem is on the first days because everyone was been caught off guard. the thing is too overpowered on first day that this happen:
Imagem

Of course there will be counters and I'm not necessarily saying it was banworthy, but wanted to compare with Electrode as apart from less speed there isn't too much difference now.

 

Also I'm not sure why you flexed yourself on the NU leaderboard considering it's only been 3 days and NU is a dead tier on ladder.

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Oh I completely forgot all discussion happened here, my bad. I think the key point is that Espeon undeniably is a better Alakazam now. It makes no sense having Espeon in a lower tier than Alakazam, when they are similar at their role but Espeon's ability makes it far more useful. It's not necessarily that Espeon is "broken" but having it in NU makes no sense from tiering perspective.

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