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[PGC 1] PokeMMO Gym Challenge


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2 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

Well it would be OU/X/Dubs.

 

On this topic, Bo3 is not something I would like to add. I'm worried about increasing the work load on gym leaders too much. This is supposed to be quick and easy matches, nothing prepped, nothing really scheduled.

 

What is a possibility is that should a gym leader win, they can not use the previous tier the next time they face?

@Poufilou

 

 

It would be better for the event since currently you'd have to be well versed in dubs to attain some of these badges. If you lose the first time, you have to wait 3 days just to play a gym leader again in a format you don't play much.

 

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Give anyone (quick maffs: 8weeks/3days=) 18 attempts to beat any player in the game and it’s pretty likely that after a while they will win a game or two. We’re playing pokemon, not chess.
If you are confident you can’t win a single game out of 18, I’m not sure why you would attempt to reach the final tournament in the first place.

It’s meant to be selective, weeding out people who are not able to adapt, otherwise everyone would make it to the final tournament.

Those who can adapt will discover a new tier and be satisfied with their progression over the 8 weeks.

Those who are unwilling to adapt are in no way forced to, as they can collect the rest of the badges, those that are attainable for them without having to play the tier(s) they are profoundly allergic to.

 

Edited by Draekyn
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3 minutes ago, Draekyn said:

Give anyone (quick maffs: 8weeks/3days=) 18 attempts to beat any player in the game and it’s pretty likely that after a while they will win a game or two. We’re playing pokemon, not chess.
If you are confident you can’t win a single game out of 18, I’m not sure why you would attempt to reach the final tournament in the first place.

It’s meant to be selective, weeding out people who are not able to adapt, otherwise everyone would make it to the final tournament.

Those who can will discover a new tier and be satisfied with their progression over the 8 weeks.

Those who are unwilling to adapt, however, are in no way forced to, as they can collect the rest of the badges, those that are attainable for them without having to play the tier(s) they are profoundly allergic to.

 

I understand your point, but your arguments are a little bit unfair ; there are multiple gyms and a limited amount of time a player can afford to spend on the event (its a lot of battles and I'm not even counting the time it takes you to adapt to a new tier). I will personally try to aim a few badges and for the moment give up on some others because, while I am willing to adapt and will certainly have to, I am being realistic that losing time fighting 5 trainers in a short time span for a one-time battle against a top player in a tier I never played before is going to result in defeat. So yeah, you can't just brush off the arguments with "you don't adapt" it is a bit unfair in my opinion, although I respect and understand why you say that. 

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1 minute ago, Poufilou said:

I am being realistic that losing time fighting 5 trainers in a short time span for a one-time battle against a top player in a tier I never played before is going to result in defeat. 

Making sure it’s understood, just in case: you don’t have to win against the 5 trainers again if you lose your gym leader fight.

Doesn’t change anything about your concerns but the « one-time battle » made me doubt it was understood

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1 minute ago, Draekyn said:

Making sure it’s understood, just in case: you don’t have to win against the 5 trainers again if you lose your gym leader fight.

Doesn’t change anything about your concerns but the « one-time battle » made me doubt it was understood

Lol I actually thought it was required. Won't gym leaders be spammed and overloaded with battles at some points like 4 weeks into ? I assume rebattling trainers was the way to prevent that from happening. 

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1 minute ago, Poufilou said:

Lol I actually thought it was required. Won't gym leaders be spammed and overloaded with battles at some points like 4 weeks into ? I assume rebattling trainers was the way to prevent that from happening. 

Well as I said above, the idea is that it’s pokemon.
Realistically after 4-5 attempts anyone is able to win against anyone provided they have access to what challengers have here: a shitload of info on their opponent (playstyle, favored archetypes/mons, even sets & spreads if they pay enough attention). 
We expect leaders to start dropping games pretty early on so the overload you mention is unlikely to happen. Especially since a large chunk of players are going to think it’s too difficult to learn a tier from scratch and not attempt certain gyms.

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I do kind of feel like the gym leader should always give an option of two tiers. (Perhaps one HAS to be OU) since having only one option (dubs) kind of cheeses the system a little. A gym can put a really good dubs player as their leader and effectively limit the possible competition who can realistically take their badge. Since a lot of the people challenging will not have played dubs, meaning they'll  have to breed up a team, learn the tier and then win against someone who's been playing dubs for years.

Is it possible for new dubs players to win in this time? Sure, but it does seem like a no brainer that if a gym wants to defend their badge they should just make the gym leaders dubs only.

I dunno, I get the need to keep the gym leader as the biggest challenge, and enforcing one tier like dubs is a very easy way to do that. But, it feels like a fairly cheesy way of doing it, I'd rather a gym badge be difficult to get because the gym leaders are the best the team has to offer, not because of the barrier of entry of a tier.

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3 minutes ago, Havsha said:

I do kind of feel like the gym leader should always give an option of two tiers. (Perhaps one HAS to be OU) since having only one option (dubs) kind of cheeses the system a little. A gym can put a really good dubs player as their leader and effectively limit the possible competition who can realistically take their badge. Since a lot of the people challenging will not have played dubs, meaning they'll  have to breed up a team, learn the tier and then win against someone who's been playing dubs for years.

Is it possible for new dubs players to win in this time? Sure, but it does seem like a no brainer that if a gym wants to defend their badge they should just make the gym leaders dubs only.

I dunno, I get the need to keep the gym leader as the biggest challenge, and enforcing one tier like dubs is a very easy way to do that. But, it feels like a fairly cheesy way of doing it, I'd rather a gym badge be difficult to get because the gym leaders are the best the team has to offer, not because of the barrier of entry of a tier.

The goal of it all IS to make players versatile and open to new tiers, it's not a barrier that you can't cross and I now understand Draekin post ; you have enough attempts to be rewarded of making the effort. I honestly find it cool that similarly to the main games, some gyms have their gimmicks and don't mind one with a doubles gym leader. (Ofc I would mind if there were three but most gyms managed to be different and not cheese the system). 

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Just now, Poufilou said:

The goal of it all IS to make players versatile and open to new tiers, it's not a barrier that you can't cross and I now understand Draekin post ; you have enough attempts to be rewarded of making the effort. I honestly find it cool that similarly to the main games, some gyms have their gimmicks and don't mind one with a doubles gym leader. (Ofc I would mind if there were three but most gyms managed to be different and not cheese the system). 

Eh, still kinda feels cheesy. Challenges based on versatility should probably stick to the gym trainers, but I'm really not too concerned, I don't want to be a negative Nancy or anything 

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I think most who have commented on the barrier of having a gym leader who is a doubles expert is unfair to players who are not familiar with the format, however, the same goes for doubles players, in my case, since the competitive began i focused strictly on doubles, until recently i started playing other tiers, but that does not make me an expert or anything like that, there are players who will cost me a lot of work to beat if i challenge them, be or not gym leaders, but that is what the event is about, being able to adapt to the challenge and try to win.

I clarify that i do not attack anyone, or anything like that, it's just that, i think it's fair that players of levels like OU, UU or NU know that doubles players also have to adapt to tiers that have great players.

                                                                        togepi-pokemon.gif.d3df48e44345cf89b48169e7969e5073.gif

Edited by YJos
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4 minutes ago, YJos said:

I think most who have commented on the barrier of having a gym leader who is a doubles expert is unfair to players who are not familiar with the format, however, the same goes for doubles players, in my case, since the competitive began i focused strictly on doubles, until recently i started playing other tiers, but that does not make me an expert or anything like that, there are players who will cost me a lot of work to beat if i challenge them, be or not gym leaders, but that is what the event is about, being able to adapt to the challenge and try to win.

I clarify that i do not attack anyone, or anything like that, it's just that, i think it's fair that players of levels like OU, UU or NU know that doubles players also have to adapt to tiers that have great players.

                                                                        togepi-pokemon.gif.d3df48e44345cf89b48169e7969e5073.gif

I get that, but there is a difference between playing OU, UU, NU and not dubs, versus playing dubs and not the other 3. Imo you're a versatile player if you can play all the singles tiers, forcing someone to play a whole different format when there are 3 other options available is definitely cheesy as havs said. 

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1 minute ago, Axelgor said:

Lo entiendo, pero hay una diferencia entre jugar OU, UU, NU y no dubs, versus jugar dubs y no los otros 3. Imo eres un jugador versátil si puedes jugar todos los niveles individuales, obligando a alguien a jugar un un formato completamente diferente cuando hay otras 3 opciones disponibles es definitivamente cursi como ha dicho Havs. 

I have to play 3 different formats, with different pokemon, different metagames, and different strategies, it's complicated for everyone, but i repeat, that's what it's all about.

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6 minutes ago, YJos said:

I have to play 3 different formats, with different pokemon, different metagames, and different strategies, it's complicated for everyone, but i repeat, that's what it's all about.

3 different tiers, not formats, singles and dubs are the only formats. I dont mind playing ou uu nu, but when I'm forced to only play dubs its an issue. It's not the same as you if you're saying you gotta learn all 3 singles tiers because dubs is the only one you know. 

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12 minutes ago, Axelgor said:

3 niveles diferentes, no formatos, singles y dubs son los únicos formatos. No me importa tocar ou uu nu, pero cuando me veo obligado a tocar solo doblajes, es un problema. No es lo mismo que tú si dices que tienes que aprender los 3 niveles individuales porque dubs es el único que conoces. 

You are right, they are all individual, but that does not mean that their metagames are the same thing, and that i have to adapt to all of them to be able to challenge an expert in the tier, a team and strategy used in NU will hardly give me results in UU, what same from UU to OU. 

We all have problems to deal with in order to challenge the players and gym leaders.

Edited by YJos
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4 minutes ago, YJos said:

You are right, they are all individual, but that does not mean that their metagames are the same thing, and that i have to adapt to all of them to be able to challenge an expert in the tier, a team and strategy used in NU will hardly give me results in UU, what same from UU to OU. 

We all have problems to deal with in order to challenge the players and gym leaders.

It's not the same since you play 1 only and others play 3 ? 

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8 minutes ago, YJos said:

You are right, they are all individual, but that does not mean that their metagames are the same thing, and that i have to adapt to all of them to be able to challenge an expert in the tier, a team and strategy used in NU will hardly give me results in UU, what same from UU to OU. 

We all have problems to deal with in order to challenge the players and gym leaders.

The big distinction between tiers and formats isnt the meta, its the mechanics. The mechanics of OU are the same as UU and NU, but the mechanics of a singles battle is totally different from doubles. Whilst you can take your knowledge of OU mechanics to the lower tiers, its far less applicable to Dubs (and vice versa)

Edited by Havsha
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One thing to keep in mind is the finale tournament will use all standard PokeMMO tiers so getting familiar with them in the badge collecting stage will do you wonders. I guess with the finale tournament you have a decent chance to play another player who is equally not so experienced in doubles.

 

I've not worked out exactly how much cash will go to the winner but it will be a lot(I guess 80m+ first place), so it I do expect the winner to be someone who can play at a fairly high level in any tier.

 

That said, we will discuss this and get back to you.

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8 minutes ago, Havsha said:

La gran distinción entre niveles y formatos no es el meta, es la mecánica. La mecánica de OU es la misma que la de UU y NU, pero la mecánica de una batalla individual es totalmente diferente a la de los dobles. Si bien puede llevar su conocimiento de la mecánica de OU a los niveles más bajos, es mucho menos aplicable a Dubs (y viceversa)

Well, i tried to get them to keep in mind that players who play singles formats aren't the only ones who have trouble challenging a gym leader who plays doubles, but it got out of control, if you want to think that they're at a disadvantage by having to play a "mechanics" different from what they are used to, there is little i can do. Personally, i feel at a disadvantage having to challenge leaders who will hardly choose doubles, who will probably choose OU, NU or UU because they are their master tiers, but i am not complaining about it, i will have to find a way to beat them if i want the prize, that's all.

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7 minutes ago, YJos said:

Well, i tried to get them to keep in mind that players who play singles formats aren't the only ones who have trouble challenging a gym leader who plays doubles, but it got out of control, if you want to think that they're at a disadvantage by having to play a "mechanics" different from what they are used to, there is little i can do. Personally, i feel at a disadvantage having to challenge leaders who will hardly choose doubles, who will probably choose OU, NU or UU because they are their master tiers, but i am not complaining about it, i will have to find a way to beat them if i want the prize, that's all.

I agree that people who only play dubs will be at more of a disadvantage than people who only play single. In an ideal world there would be a singles and dubs version of this event, but we just dont have a large enough player base

Edited by Havsha
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5 minutes ago, Havsha said:

I agree that people who only play dubs will be at more of a disadvantage than people who only play single. In an ideal world there would be a singles and dubs version of this event, but we just dont have a large enough player base

I think that takes away the point of this event though. Players having to adapt and improve in tiers they wouldn't normally play can be rewarded here.

 

Remember, if you really can't get a badge because you're not experienced enough in their tier, you can still get to the final bracket. You don't need 8 badges but those that do will take priority.

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5 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Sin embargo, creo que eso le quita el sentido a este evento. Los jugadores que tienen que adaptarse y mejorar en niveles que normalmente no jugarían pueden ser recompensados aquí.

 

Recuerde, si realmente no puede obtener una insignia porque no tiene suficiente experiencia en su nivel, aún puede llegar al grupo final. No necesitas 8 insignias, pero las que las necesiten tendrán prioridad.

What tier will the final tournament be? 

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Just now, KaynineXL said:

I think that takes away the point of this event though. Players having to adapt and improve in tiers they wouldn't normally play can be rewarded here.

 

Remember, if you really can't get a badge because you're not experienced enough in their tier, you can still get to the final bracket. You don't need 8 badges but those that do will take priority.

I dont really buy into the whole "versatility" and "exerience" stuff when it comes to dubs/singles. Theyre seperate formats, like VGC and singles, or heck to give a real world analogy sevens rugby vs rugby. Yeah there are obviously inherent similarities, but theyre different sports. I dunno, I guess the big thing is that if we want the players to be versatile, we should expect the same from the gym leaders. Unless we're just gonna acknowledge that the gym leaders aren't necessarily the best of that team, in which case their choice to select dubs is definetly a choice to try cheese things/the other better players dont want to be gym leader

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Good players adapt quickly to any tier or game format, whether OU/NU or Singles/Doubles, so honestly I wouldn't mind one bit if there was another gym with a unique, leader-specific tier (even if it was mine weakest tier) as we have enough time to challenge everyone multiple times, and I'm pretty sure I'm capable of beating anyone in any game mode.

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We discussed this issue and we came to the conclusion we would not force gym leaders to play tiers they do not want to play. You'll have 8 weeks to 'get gud' at your weak tiers.

 

We recommend you start on the gym you'll find most challenging in order to have as many rematches as it takes.

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