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About pokemon's ban tier


MullenYu

Question

Some pokemon get new move or new ability, then be too strong and have to up to higher tier.

 

For example:

1.move

Blastoise's Shell Smash

 

2.ability

Feraligatr's Sheer Force, Serperior's Contrary

 

I wonder that if add a new function to ban pokemon's specific combination, would it make a pokemon could be use in different tier at same time.

 

like OU's Dugtrio, if ban its Arena Trap then will drop to NU.

Torkoal if ban its Drought might drop to Untiered. XD

 

After all, a best usage causes a pokemon to use in high tier only, is too waste its others usage.

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Valid question, should a pokemon be judged by the full value of it's strength?

Your examples of Torkoal, Dugtrio, Serperior and Feraligatr are excelent.

Same could be said about Empolion. At the  moment Empolion is considered (by some) too strong for UU but if his move Roost was banned from usage in UU then the pokemon would be fine in UU. However if not then he will eventually move up to OU where he will (supposedly) be outclassed.

So should we judge pokemons based on their full available strength until they get so far outclassed or just ban one ability or move that makes then too strong for a specific tier? Thus allowing the pokemons to be used in both tiers.

For example:

Dugtrio: Ban Arena Trap from UU and NU. Allow it in OU.
Empoleon: Ban Roost from UU. Allow it in OU.

Be interesting to hear some TC's thoughts on this.


 

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If I remember correctly some ghost pokemon (cofa for sure) + Nasty plot were banned for a period of time in 2019 I think. Can't remember if it was because of balancing or if there was a problem with the move it self. Anyway, the banning of a pokemon + a certain move was possible before and it is a thing showdown does too. 

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1 hour ago, CaptnBaklava said:

If I remember correctly some ghost pokemon (cofa for sure) + Nasty plot were banned for a period of time in 2019 I think. Can't remember if it was because of balancing or if there was a problem with the move it self. Anyway, the banning of a pokemon + a certain move was possible before and it is a thing showdown does too. 

It was because tournament prize Cofagrigus had access to Nasty Plot for a while and before Sinnoh was released it had no way of getting it normally since it needed Spiritomb (I think) for the egg move.

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Allow me to try to explain why this creates an unhealthy loop.

 

Let's suppose, by the given example, Serperior won't be used in OU cause it is not good enough. Let's also suppose that, to avoid it from happening, we remove something from Serperior, to make it usable in other tiers. 

 

Problem 1: If we complex ban Serperior, then by the same argument we are forced to complex ban every other Pokemon in the same circumstances (Aka not used in OU). Where or when do we draw the line?

 

Problem 2: Let's ignore problem 1 for now and assume we complex banned Serperior. Next season there will always be something else that dropped to low usage because Serperior left. 
         - Should we Complex ban that something else?
                      - By the same argument yes. If Serperior was complexed because it had no usage, whatever drops enough should also be. But this creates a loop, because everytime we remove a Pokemon from OU, something else will drop enough to fill the same spot, so we would be removing stuff indefinitely.

                      - Then we shouldn't complex ban that something else. But think about it: Doesn't this mean we shouldn't have complexed Serperior in the first place?

 

Problem 3: State of the below tiers. If we keep dumping Pokemon from the higher tier to the lower one, we may reach a point where everything below is viable. If everything is viable, games are now decided by matchup, because it simply is not possible to cover everything that is viable at once. The result? A metagame similar to NU like an year ago, where every offensive Pokemon was so good that most matches were decided before they even started and where a lot of tournament finals ended within 5 minutes, winning whoever had the one Pokemon that 6-0'd the enemy team.

 

But now let's ignore all this and claim: But we can just complex ban a few things and ignore the rest. 

Well, you can't. First, where do you draw the line? Second, this process would be subjective, therefore biased, thus while you could be satisifed with it, someone else would maybe like if a different array of Pokemon was complexed instead. 

 

 

Finally, to answer the post above: I may not be remembering correctly, but the only complex ban MMO tried to do (Ignoring stuff that would otherwise rise to UBER) was snorlax's Body slam in Gen3, something that opened the Pandora Box in these forums for too long and something I'd never want to face again. 

 

Sorry for the long post. This subject is really really controversial and I wanted to lay down everything I wanted to express, at once.

Edited by pachima
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10小时前,CaptnBaklava 说:

If I remember correctly some ghost pokemon (cofa for sure) + Nasty plot were banned for a period of time in 2019 I think. Can't remember if it was because of balancing or if there was a problem with the move it self. Anyway, the banning of a pokemon + a certain move was possible before and it is a thing showdown does too. 

yah, Genger and Mismagius.

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10 hours ago, pachima said:

Next season there will always be something else that dropped to low usage because Serperior left. 

usage rate cause the tier changes is exist already now.

 

10 hours ago, pachima said:

But now let's ignore all this and claim: But we can just complex ban a few things and ignore the rest. 

Well, you can't. First, where do you draw the line? Second, this process would be subjective, therefore biased, thus while you could be satisifed with it, someone else would maybe like if a different array of Pokemon was complexed instead. 

my point is "pokemon's specific combination make it stay in high tier",

what we need to consider is why a pokemon up to high tier or stay in high tier.

a obvious one is Pelipper, if without Drizzle, I think it could never in OU.

 

your group Tier Council may discuss about this, but yah it really spend a lots time and will make a long list to explain why ban.

thanks for your long post!

 

Edited by MullenYu
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