Togekiss and serene grace. Broken or nah?

[Ryukaai]

I have a love hate relationship with togekiss. On one hand I do enjoy serene graces added effects boost...but IMO the flinch chance needs a nerf.

 

As you can see I decided to go for it expecting to die to Rotom W because it's a direct counter. Most times rotom will kill the togekiss on the turn he doesn't flinch... Well this rotom flinched a total of 5 times. And then flinched the cloyster upon entrance which killed its sash and any hope of victory.

 

I think serene grace needs to be nerfed at least when it comes to back to back flinch chance. At least to where flinch chance lowers on each flinch or a max of 3 back to back flinches.

 

[Raichuforyou]

Serene Grace probably should have never been added in gen 3 to begin with as it just brings too much RNG into a game where the better player should be winning.

 

I think you are going to get a lot of arguments founded here in "That's the way it always has been, deal with it".

 

I think it would be interesting if it was modified in Pokemmo.

[DiosSlurpuff]

3 hours ago, Ryukaai said:

As you can see I decided to go for it expecting to die to Rotom W because it's a direct counter.

Not really.

 

252 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 92-110 (47.9 - 57.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 62-74 (32.2 - 38.5%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 79-94 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

Volt Switch makes the 2HKO possible, yes, but it can't be said to be a direct counter, especially if we take into account that Togekiss has access to Calm mind + Roost, and since Rotom was slower, I rule out the possibility that your Rotom be Scarf or have Discharge (Movement very rare to see in rotom by the way)

As for Togekiss in general, I haven't had a chance to face a calm-minded Togekiss yet, but actually, although he's a very good man, it's possible to control him.

Dragonite is possibly the best counter build, and I personally haven't seen Togekiss + Aura Sphere in a while, so consider Magnezone and Tyranitar as possible counters as well.

And it also has its checks, like Weavile or even Jolteon if you dare to use it.

You can even use a Milotic 252 Speed + Haze to specifically neutralize Togekiss, if you run into him too much and need to fire him.

In conclusion, I think Togekiss is a good mon, but it's not "broken" as there are many ways to stop it.

[Ryukaai]

Bro please use normal text as the cursive is hard on my eyes and a bit difficult to read. 

 

Also, you can't just exclude 2 of rotoms stab moves in thunderbolt and discharge. While I will agree those 2 moves are less common on rotom they are not rare on him and many do run those moves. Calm mind and air slash will still lose to a rotom packing bolt or discharge and the 9/10 rotom wins that match.

 

If you play Pvp and use togekiss and the opponent has rotom its almost certain they will send him out to neutralize air slash damage and force a switch. I decided to spam airslash since I didn't need togekiss at that point... There is no reason why airslash should have a chance to completely stop a rotom for 5 turns.

 

Edit: Also scarf kiss is definitely a thing...in fact its what I was running... Scarf kiss usually dies or has to switch out vs rotom. If you are not running a direct counter to scarf kiss or a way to stop airslash such as disable mirrorcoat or cursed body  he can potentially sweep your whole team with ease and with the high flinch chance you may not get a single move in for the whole match. I've been there...it isn't fun lol

Edited July 28, 2022 by Ryukaai
Additional info

[BrandonBraune]

3 hours ago, Ryukaai said:

Bro please use normal text as the cursive is hard on my eyes and a bit difficult to read. 

 

 

me too lol

[Requi]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:40 AM, Ryukaai said:

I have a love hate relationship with togekiss. On one hand I do enjoy serene graces added effects boost...but IMO the flinch chance needs a nerf.

 

As you can see I decided to go for it expecting to die to Rotom W because it's a direct counter. Most times rotom will kill the togekiss on the turn he doesn't flinch... Well this rotom flinched a total of 5 times. And then flinched the cloyster upon entrance which killed its sash and any hope of victory.

 

I think serene grace needs to be nerfed at least when it comes to back to back flinch chance. At least to where flinch chance lowers on each flinch or a max of 3 back to back flinches.

 

I think it’s more so annoying than broken, Togekiss is base 80 speed so anything faster cannot be flinched. If they are scarf then majority of special walls can deal with it. It also has a weakness to stealth rocks and priority move ice shard.

[OrangeManiac]

Wouldn't really use individual case examples in a comp. discussion thread, ever. Short answer is no, you can list literally endless amount of cases where a supposed counter may fall to some RNG - it's just the nature of the game. Competitive tiering discussions are done looking at a performance of a Pokemon in a longer period, if Serene Grace Togekiss was clearly "overpowering" it would be one of the most used Pokemon in the game. It's not even close.

 

The whole idea of handcrafted nerfs to Serene Grace is just big nope, doing any non-canon nerfs is a horrible idea in general and even more so if it's done to something that isn't even broken.