October 2022 Movement Discussion Thread

[Munya]

This is the last month of the season and also the last month of our pre-planned 4.36% cutoff for all the months, next month we will go back to the 6.7/1.7 movements unless more HAs drop in which case we will discuss further extending cutoffs if need be.

 

As such, the following changes are occurring based off of usage.

 

To OU from UU:

Weezing - 6.19% usage in OU

 

To UU from NU:

Wobbuffet - 4.75% usage in UU

Tentacruel - 4.73% usage in UU

 

To NU from UU:

Golbat - 3.95% usage in UU

 

Both the Machamp and Alakazam Suspects will be ending with no bans.

[Munya]

Its been a topic of discussion?  Not sure what else to say about it at this point in time.

 

The Alakazam and Machamp suspect tests will be ending with neither of them banned from their current tiers, Feraligatr suspect will continue.

[Poufilou]

2 hours ago, Munya said:

Its been a topic of discussion?  Not sure what else to say about it at this point in time.

??? 

Like the 5 latest pages on the OU thread ? Can you just answer questions

[Munya]

I did, I just said its been a topic of discussion, and that is all I can really say at this moment in time.

[gbwead]

7 hours ago, Munya said:

Its been a topic of discussion?  Not sure what else to say about it at this point in time.

4 hours ago, Munya said:

I did, I just said its been a topic of discussion, and that is all I can really say at this moment in time.

Could you please clarify those statements? What are you implying?

 

The solutions to Serperior are a topic of discussion?

The implementation and timing of those solutions are a topic of discussion?

Serperior itself is a topic of discussion? (In that case, why no discussion thread?)

Maybe you just meant Serperior has been a topic of discussion in TC chat?

[Edwardinho]

I agree with the changes that are planned to be made. The only thing I would like them to give more attention to is Serperior, maybe a slight Nerf would not hurt

[Utsa]

Nice . Will miss you weezing . Just made a Weezing yesterday for UU ;(

Edited October 9, 2022 by Utsa

[Wallarro]

Hace 4 minutos, Utsa dijo:

Genial. Te echaré de menos. Acabo de hacer un Weezing ayer para OU ;(

you can still use it in OU

[hannahtaylor]

50 minutes ago, Utsa said:

Nice . Will miss you weezing . Just made a Weezing yesterday for OU ;(

It's moving to OU. You can use it. 

[Stokes]

BAN feraligrt from uu pls, Dance dragon waterfall crunch ice punch/earthquake/acuajet destroy teams, Only choice scarf can stop like rotom mow or roserade. Gastrodom bold or vaporeon aren´t 100% effective walls.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Stokes

[caioxlive13]

5 minutes ago, Stokes said:

BAN feraligrt from uu pls, Dance dragon waterfall crunch ice punch/earthquake/acuajet destroy teams, Only choice scarf can stop like rotom mow or roserade. Gastrodom bold or vaporeon aren´t 100% effective walls.

Rotom-Mow also must be timid + scarf. Modests after one setup of a Fera Jolly, still can't outspeed him.

[DiosSlurpuff]

On 9/25/2022 at 11:19 PM, gbwead said:

Serperior is a problem. Please do something about it. We still don't have a discussion thread. We still have no idea if anything is planned to solve the issue or when those solutions - if any - are to be expected. We still don't know if TC voted on Serperior. We are completly in the dark. What's going on?

Really, what is the reason why it is "broken" in the current meta?

It has fairly well-established counters like Volcarona or Crobat, it can't play comfortably against an opponent that uses Weezing, there are checks like Weavile (which removes it even under substitute if it hits 3 times).

I really think that the problem is more the adaptation to a new mon that is quite viable, however it is not ''broken'' to the point of considering a nerf as it has, despite its potential as a setup sweeper, some negative characteristics (Little bulk, well-established counters, null versatility, among others)

[Imperial]

I'm fairly neutral on Serperior but thought I'd clarify some points here:

 

1 hour ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

Really, what is the reason why it is "broken" in the current meta?

It has fairly well-established counters like Volcarona or Crobat,  it can't play comfortably against an opponent that uses Weezing, there are checks like Weavile (which removes it even under substitute if it hits 3 times).

I really think that the problem is more the adaptation to a new mon that is quite viable, however it is not ''broken'' to the point of considering a nerf as it has, despite its potential as a setup sweeper, some negative characteristics (Little bulk, well-established counters, null versatility, among others)

Volcarona has a x4 weakness to rocks so already takes heavy damage from this - in addition, it's slower than Serperior at -0 so it's unable to safely switch into a Dragon Pulse set, definitely not the very definition of a counter:

 

252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 35-42 (21.7 - 26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

252 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(If Serperior runs max special attack and speed then it's a guaranteed KO, but most have HP investment as it already boosts special attack with contrary)

 

Crobat also takes some significant damage due to rocks weakness - although this takes damage better than Volcarona, it's vulnerable to the Glare set which causes it to lose that crucial speed control.

 

For Weezing, it stops contrary yes, but it's weak on the special defence side and has no reliable self-recovery, and we all know that the defensive set is way too viable to help against Mienshao, Conkeldurr, Scizor, etc...

 

Regarding Weavile being a check, you need to make sure it's timed correctly at -0, and although it could take some hits yes (will struggle with glare set), this mon is way too frail to be risked like that.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Imperial

[DiosSlurpuff]

59 minutes ago, Imperial said:

252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 35-42 (21.7 - 26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 69-82 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

59 minutes ago, Imperial said:

252 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 150-176 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 168-198 (112 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

59 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Crobat also takes some significant damage due to rocks weakness - although this takes damage better than Volcarona, it's vulnerable to the Glare set which causes it to lose that crucial speed control.

+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 85-101 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

However, Serperior would need 1 or 2 turns before.

If I had Crobat on my team, and a rival Serperior is on the field, I would send Bat to receive the leaf storm/glare and with that I would force the change, I don't see a problem with that, in 1v1 Crobat would win, he would even win without going into a clean turn, as long as he's full hp, I doubt someone with Bat on his team would let serpe boost and cripple himself with glare, doesn't make much sense off paper.

 

With weezing I did not mean that it is a counter, not at all, I just said that it was a way to make the opponent uncomfortable and make him think if it is convenient for him to use leaf storm or not, and with what you pointed out you have a good point.

 

59 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Regarding Weavile being a check, you need to make sure it's timed correctly at -0, and although it could take some hits yes (will struggle with glare set), this mon is way too frail to be risked like that.

Yep, that's why I said ''Check'' and not ''Counter''

Lately I've seen too many Weavile + Chansey/Bliss tp, which allows Weavile to come in clean and with icicle even have a chance against Serperior +2 Sub (Hitting 3 times yes, but it's a high chace).

 

I'm even convinced that I could mention more checks if I really thought about possibilities, I don't see it as something "broken"

 

Is he a good mon?
indisputably.

Easily became one of the most powerful OU?
Yep.

 

But it's not really "broken"
I'm surprised that the community that asked for HA is now considering nerfing a mon that we've known about for at least as long as we've been waiting ha.

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by DiosSlurpuff

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

Easily became one of the most powerful OU?
Yep.

He have the same issue than Blaziken. HA Dependency.

[gbwead]

6 hours ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

Really, what is the reason why it is "broken" in the current meta?

It has fairly well-established counters like Volcarona or Crobat, it can't play comfortably against an opponent that uses Weezing, there are checks like Weavile (which removes it even under substitute if it hits 3 times).

I really think that the problem is more the adaptation to a new mon that is quite viable, however it is not ''broken'' to the point of considering a nerf as it has, despite its potential as a setup sweeper, some negative characteristics (Little bulk, well-established counters, null versatility, among others)

Even if you don't believe Serperior is a problem, I am sure you would still agree that Serperior is a pokemon worth talking about and it deserves its own discussion thread.

[hernjet]

3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Incluso si no crees que Serperior sea un problema, estoy seguro de que aún estarías de acuerdo en que Serperior es un Pokémon del que vale la pena hablar y que merece su propio hilo de discusión.

I think that the best nerf you can do to Serperior would be to remove the evasion bost for clearing, until the HA of Crobat, Chandelure, Xatu, etc. arrive.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, hernjet said:

I think that the best nerf you can do to Serperior would be to remove the evasion bost for clearing, until the HA of Crobat, Chandelure, Xatu, etc. arrive.

On that note, I noticed dubs players starting to run defog more often to give their own serp an evasion boost. I believe removing the evasion boost would be a good step forward.

[DiosSlurpuff]

6 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

He have the same issue than Blaziken. HA Dependency.

But that's not a PvP problem, it's a HA mechanics problem.

 

2 hours ago, hernjet said:

I think that the best nerf you can do to Serperior would be to remove the evasion bost for clearing, until the HA of Crobat, Chandelure, Xatu, etc. arrive.

Ok, I did not take that into account, in that case I agree.

[caioxlive13]

13 hours ago, gbwead said:

On that note, I noticed dubs players starting to run defog more often to give their own serp an evasion boost. I believe removing the evasion boost would be a good step forward.

The evasion boost is something to singles that can punish defog users, the most common being Rotom-W, that if you don't have taunter in field, he will defog their field for free because 80% of tier cannot OHKO it immediatally or stop him for defog before setuping. I have a best idea: Change defog to not allow it to target allies, only enemies. With this, Evasion Boost will keep as a way to punish Defog, without letting it being abused on doubles.

Edited September 28, 2022 by caioxlive13

[suigin]

Remove Cursed Body

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, suigin said:

Remove Cursed Body

When acupressure got nerfed and sand veil becomes deactivated.

[DOOM]

@Munya Since I was observing that there is an indecision about what to do with serperior, there are people like me, I like PVE much more than the PVP and want the pokemon not be nerfeados in any way, this includes not reducing stats or take off movements. I thought of a possible solution :

 

+could create a clause in which it is forbidden in pairings or official events the use of serperior with the movement rain leaves or garchomp with sword dance.that is if you can take serperior to pvp as long as it does not have raining leaves, example: as was done with hydreigon learning dragon comet.

 

keeping pokemon as original as possible without breaking pvp, most people are also kept without protest.is just a humble suggestion to keep the pokemon as tightly held originality and that we can use them to their full potential in the PVE that already has its higher difficulty than normal including the boss monster of each official event (king pumpkin among others) Thanks for reading. and sorry for my english.

[DOOM]

5 minutes ago, DOOM said:

@Munya Since I was observing that there is an indecision about what to do with serperior, there are people like me, I like PVE much more than the PVP and want the pokemon not be nerfeados in any way, this includes not reducing stats or take off movements. I thought of a possible solution :

 

+could create a clause in which it is forbidden in pairings or official events the use of serperior with the movement rain leaves or garchomp with sword dance.that is if you can take serperior to pvp as long as it does not have raining leaves, example: as was done with hydreigon learning dragon comet.

 

keeping pokemon as original as possible without breaking pvp, most people are also kept without protest.is just a humble suggestion to keep the pokemon as tightly held originality and that we can use them to their full potential in the PVE that already has its higher difficulty than normal including the boss monster of each official event (king pumpkin among others) Thanks for reading. and sorry for my english.

I forgot to add that for duels between friends it would be good to be able to use them freely to take them with any moves and strategies, in addition it would be giving a good use to the section banneos and clauses of the pairing and official tournaments, because in my humble opinion it would be like removing from the game a pokemon that goes up to uber, is a somewhat exaggerated example, in short, would give us more freedom and relief to PVE players knowing that our favorite pokemons will not be disabled.

[Munya]

Everything stated in the OP has been pushed in game as well as the 2 suspects that are ending which is now also stated int he OP.