[OU Discussion] Serperior

[LifeStyleNORE]

give us Zapdos and Heatran and Regen Amoonguss

[Luke]

What I dislike the most about Serp is the fact it forces you to play quite linear in regards to answers for it, it's Chansey teleport + a fast sweeper as your answer, anything else is at risk of being glared which almost all answers strongly dislike (especially offensively). Yes you have defensive answers such as Golbat, Weezing & Crobat. But for 1, Golbat after a para becomes slower than Conk which is very important, it can also lose to the sub seed set & can't even ohko serp from full. Sure, you can cram U-Turn onto it. But you are losing Defog or Toxic, which are very key parts of Golbats toolkit for the niche it plays in OU. Weezing is mainly a physical mon, and if you are using it calm it's purely for Serp because Bold is 100x better. Lastly, if you are throwing in Crobat to get glared you might as well not use it. I don't believe it is as broken as SD Chomp or Hydrei draco but I still feel it is far from healthy with how restrictive it can be at times because of the way you have to use a blob as a buffer switch (which can be nullified by taunt) or else you will be at the mercy of glare. I feel we need more answers for it before we can reasonably say it should be kept in the tier.

 

I think the best solution is:

 

Disabling its HA until more answers are available (Infiltrator, Tangrowth HA (with AV) Amoonguss HA, Zapdos, Heatran) very skeptical about those last 2 being any time soon lmao. This way it can still have its niche of being a screens setter in NU. With the clear statement that it will eventually return with its ability. This way we (hopefully) don't have a mass panic sell situation. Although people will be annoyed no matter what due to how expensive it was to make.

 

It's quite a difficult problem to address in the short to medium term due to the fact the competitive community is still waiting for part 3, which could add anything. But for now I would be for removing it from OU for the time being & immediately re adding it when notable answers are added into the game to be on the safe side. We can cross that bridge of when is the correct time to re-integrate it when it comes to it.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Luke

[gbwead]

I would like to add that Golbat needs U-Turn to pivot sucessfully vs Serperior and that means Golbat can't play Defog anymore which was its main niche in OU. 

[pachima]

I like how people casually throw Heatran, when its much more broken than whatever we have.

 

But hey, we got dugtrio!

[LifeStyleNORE]

26 minutes ago, pachima said:

I like how people casually throw Heatran, when its much more broken than whatever we have.

 

But hey, we got dugtrio!

More broken than Garchomp?

Worst case scenario is having to remove Magma Storm from it, otherwise completely fine and in fact, much needed for this shit meta. 

[RysPicz]

43 minutes ago, pachima said:

I like how people casually throw Heatran, when its much more broken than whatever we have.

 

But hey, we got dugtrio!

In a metagame like ours I totally fail to see how Heatran would be broken. Top usage mons will remain top usage mons, rain will remain as viable as it is. I love Heatran but it's not gonna fall under any "Uber" category, especially since we got Dugtrio in the tier (which should not be here in the first place but w/w)

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

I would like to add that Golbat needs U-Turn to pivot sucessfully vs Serperior and that means Golbat can't play Defog anymore which was its main niche in OU. 

And when this is a problem? If we want a defoger we have Rotom-Wash. OU already have better defogers meaning you can use non-defog golbat variants.

[gbwead]

21 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

And when this is a problem? If we want a defoger we have Rotom-Wash. OU already have better defogers meaning you can use non-defog golbat variants.

I am saying that the main reason golbat is played in OU is to Defog. Taking that away from Golbat hurts its viability.

[Draekyn]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

What I dislike the most about Serp is the fact it forces you to play quite linear in regards to answers for it, it's Chansey teleport + a fast sweeper as your answer, anything else is at risk of being glared which almost all answers strongly dislike (especially offensively). Yes you have defensive answers such as Golbat, Weezing & Crobat. But for 1, Golbat after a para becomes slower than Conk which is very important, it can also lose to the sub seed set & can't even ohko serp from full. Sure, you can cram U-Turn onto it. But you are losing Defog or Toxic, which are very key parts of Golbats toolkit for the niche it plays in OU. Weezing is mainly a physical mon, and if you are using it calm it's purely for Serp because Bold is 100x better. Lastly, if you are throwing in Crobat to get glared you might as well not use it. I don't believe it is as broken as SD Chomp or Hydrei draco but I still feel it is far from healthy with how restrictive it can be at times because of the way you have to use a blob as a buffer switch (which can be nullified by taunt) or else you will be at the mercy of glare. I feel we need more answers for it before we can reasonably say it should be kept in the tier.

 

I think the best solution is:

 

Disabling its HA until more answers are available (Infiltrator, Tangrowth HA (with AV) Amoonguss HA, Zapdos, Heatran) very skeptical about those last 2 being any time soon lmao. This way it can still have its niche of being a screens setter in NU. With the clear statement that it will eventually return with its ability. This way we (hopefully) don't have a mass panic sell situation. Although people will be annoyed no matter what due to how expensive it was to make.

 

It's quite a difficult problem to address in the short to medium term due to the fact the competitive community is still waiting for part 3, which could add anything. But for now I would be for removing it from OU for the time being & immediately re adding it when notable answers are added into the game to be on the safe side. We can cross that bridge of when is the correct time to re-integrate it when it comes to it.

Can you touch on the mons Chuck mentionned? (Some sciz sets first one that comes to mind is occa, roserade(NC for glare), Venu)

At least rose doesn’t really care about glare

Infiltrator helps slightly

Bat still gets crippled by glare on the switch in but can’t be subbed on

Chande same but more susceptible to serp being paired with a pursuit trapper

Probably not enough on its own

 

We’re not seeing Heatran/Zapdos anytime soon correct

 

AV Tangrowth, doesn’t do much more than the other defensive mons mentionned other than not losing to sub seed, still gets crippled by glare

 

In the event that it has to go, in order to make a clear statement that it’d return eventually I feel you guys should have some clue of what is needed exactly to get it to a point where it can

If AV + Regen on Tangrowth + infiltrator is enough in your minds, should prolly state that so the devs have a roadmap (kekw mmo devs with a roadmap)

 

 

 

[Luke]

45 minutes ago, Draekyn said:

Can you touch on the mons Chuck mentionned? (Some sciz sets first one that comes to mind is occa, roserade(NC for glare), Venu)

At least rose doesn’t really care about glare

The Scizor sets needed are sub-optimal and are pretty much specifically for Serperior. Roserade is frail, and I don't really count it as very good because it's good vs serp and rotom, bad against everything else. It has 1.2% usage in OU and the nature needed to beat Serperior has 12.5% usage amongst all roserades used in OU. I feel referencing Roserade is a poor answer at best. Venusaur cares about glare, and the majority are used in sun teams which don't care about Serp as much as other styles, defensive Venusaur is OK but I would not feel comfortable as referencing it as an answer because it's a niche at best. I believe having to reference such mons is very indicative of just how oppressive Serp can be.

 

45 minutes ago, Draekyn said:

Infiltrator helps slightly

Bat still gets crippled by glare on the switch in but can’t be subbed on

Chande same but more susceptible to serp being paired with a pursuit trapper

Probably not enough on its own

Agree with all points here. However I personally do not feel comfortable with Golbat becoming the best answer to Serp in OU... It does not feel right, we should have more answers for Serp in OU than just Golbat & Chansey... Not to mention these 2 mons force you to play in a very defensive playstyle.

 

45 minutes ago, Draekyn said:

AV Tangrowth, doesn’t do much more than the other defensive mons mentionned other than not losing to sub seed, still gets crippled by glare

 

I should have been clearer, I did not mean that the mons I listed should be added ASAP. But that Serperior would be much healthier in a meta with those in. They are significantly more spashable, and you don't have to go out of your way to use them, unlike many of the answers I have seen listed so far. I was listing off some Pokemon of which in the future could potentially check / answer it. Some I listed are better at this than others. 

 

45 minutes ago, Draekyn said:

In the event that it has to go, in order to make a clear statement that it’d return eventually I feel you guys should have some clue of what is needed exactly to get it to a point where it canIf AV + Regen on Tangrowth + infiltrator is enough in your minds, should prolly state that so the devs have a roadmap (kekw mmo devs with a roadmap)

I was not speaking on behalf of TC. Nor was I making a statement that this is necessarily what needs to be added for serp to be healthy, I just just listing off potential checks / answers used in generations ahead of ours of which we do not currently have as an example that we are spread pretty thin when it comes to Serp answers. It is my personal belief that Serp should not be shelved forever with its HA because it's a great addition for OU. We just need more answers for it than we currently have for it to be healthy in an MMO meta.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Luke

[Intensu]

disable leafstorm until add ha?

[Wallarro]

25 minutes ago, Intensu said:

disable leafstorm until add ha?

basically it would be the same as removing the Hidden Ability

[Mkns1070]

There is also crobat infiltrator who become more strong against sub serp 

[Bertolfoso]

In my opinion, the solution is quite simple. Giving Serperior access to Contrary is the same kind of mistake as giving Blaziken Speed Boost (although to a less extreme). I don't think people (or, at least, I know I do not) would agree with giving Blaziken Speed Boost but removing Swords Dance or even Bulk Up from it, so it does not make sense to remove Glare/Taunt/LeafStorm. 

The main reason people wouldn't agree is because the clear breaking factor with Blaziken is Speed Boost itself (right now it's balanced). The same logic can be applied to Serperior.

I really dislike the idea of adding post generation 5 items just to "fix" one Pokémon, like you wouldn't add Toxapex, Tapu Fini, etc to "fix" Blaziken.

 

The main reason this is hard to apply is simply something related to PokeMMO, the resources spent. Serperior is right now one of the most expensive Pokémon to build, and changing it would basically be taken as a scam for most people. I do think money can be returned to players that used the patch/have a Serperior with HA unlocked similar to how they gave 30k to whoever had an illegal move on their Shedinja very recently.

[MadaraSixSix]

9 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

In my opinion, the solution is quite simple. Giving Serperior access to Contrary is the same kind of mistake as giving Blaziken Speed Boost (although to a less extreme). I don't think people (or, at least, I know I do not) would agree with giving Blaziken Speed Boost but removing Swords Dance or even Bulk Up from it, so it does not make sense to remove Glare/Taunt/LeafStorm. 

The main reason people wouldn't agree is because the clear breaking factor with Blaziken is Speed Boost itself (right now it's balanced). The same logic can be applied to Serperior.

I really dislike the idea of adding post generation 5 items just to "fix" one Pokémon, like you wouldn't add Toxapex, Tapu Fini, etc to "fix" Blaziken.

 

The main reason this is hard to apply is simply something related to PokeMMO, the resources spent. Serperior is right now one of the most expensive Pokémon to build, and changing it would basically be taken as a scam for most people. I do think money can be returned to players that used the patch/have a Serperior with HA unlocked similar to how they gave 30k to whoever had an illegal move on their Shedinja very recently.

blaziken seems to me less broken than serperior

 

my opinion will surely not be shared but I find that we can easily send slowbro or salamance against a blaziken (optimal set sword dance thunder punch and 2 stabs) hippo possible come to

and even after one bosst on speed blaziken including outspeed scarf chomp for example

blazi dont have bulk too vs prio extreme speed match punch ect

[CHUCKunso]

3 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

blaziken seems to me less broken than serperior

 

my opinion will surely not be shared but I find that we can easily send slowbro or salamance against a blaziken (optimal set sword dance thunder punch and 2 stabs) hippo possible come to

and even after one bosst on speed blaziken including outspeed scarf chomp for example

blazi dont have bulk too vs prio extreme speed match punch ect

Oh believe me speed boost blazi is not something you want. Stop focusing on SD alone - there is work up with 120/110 offenses. This comparission is just not helpful at all!

[MadaraSixSix]

1 minute ago, CHUCKunso said:

Oh believe me speed boost blazi is not something you want. Stop focusing on SD alone - there is work up with 120/110 offenses. This comparission is just not helpful at all!

I did a little trick on showdown I had the opportunity to play against this pokemon
and i played this pokemon myself
if i can choose between blazi and serp in our meta i choose blaziken

but that's just my opinion ^^

[CHUCKunso]

5 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

I did a little trick on showdown I had the opportunity to play against this pokemon
and i played this pokemon myself
if i can choose between blazi and serp in our meta i choose blaziken

but that's just my opinion ^^

Well you can play showdown, that is good for you, awesome trick!

I have one for you as well: I can think for the perspective of stall, balance and (!) offense players and can assure you this is just a super unhealthy take for the meta. But then again it might cater your stall fetish so who am I to judge your take.

[MadaraSixSix]

3 minutes ago, CHUCKunso said:

Well you can play showdown, that is good for you, awesome trick!

I have one for you as well: I can think for the perspective of stall, balance and (!) offense players and can assure you this is just a super unhealthy take for the meta. But then again it might cater your stall fetish so who am I to judge your take.

it's true that I played a lot of stall / balance, maybe that's why it didn't pose a problem for me
he is surely cancer for the offense
(but even rain/sand I think it must be strong enough vs blaziken I guess)

[gbwead]

So far, we have several posts recognizing that Serperior is a problem that needs to be addressed (Chuck only considers the evasion as a problem):

On 9/28/2022 at 12:36 PM, RysPicz said:

My stand is that Serp should be either banned to Ubers or restricted from using it's Contrary ability.

On 9/28/2022 at 12:44 PM, Wallarro said:

Go ban serpereor:muscle: 

On 9/28/2022 at 12:50 PM, LpZ said:

I would def support a ban or ability restriction.

On 9/28/2022 at 12:51 PM, Imperial said:

I agree this mon has become a problem in the tier in its current state.

On 9/28/2022 at 1:14 PM, ArtOfKilling said:

I don't mind it getting banned or nerfed and reverting things back to the old meta because with all honesty it's too strong compared to what we have right now.

On 9/28/2022 at 4:50 PM, CHUCKunso said:

Imo Serp makes the meta game a lot more healthy compared to before.
+
Evasion boost is a problem in OU. 

21 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

the problem of serp is all of what it accomplishes

On 9/28/2022 at 2:35 PM, Huargensy said:

Although it currently has ways to deal with it, I don't think they are adequate because they depend on a very favorable situation to be able to stop it, personally I would prefer to ban it until we have better tools to handle it. .

Before going into what should be the right solutions for the problem, I urge the following players that have defended Serperior in the past to speak up now:

@DiosSlurpuff

@Deploic

@Havsha

@Quilachy

 

Since Serperior is OU, it's safe to say that even if it is deemed banworthy it will get nerfed directly or indirectly instead of getting banned. Here are the solutions I have seen suggested so far:

1. Remove the evasion boost that Serperior gets when an opposing pokemon uses Defog against it
2. Add some legendaries
3. Contrary Removal / Ban
4. Leaf Storm Removal / Complex Ban
5. Leaf Storm Base Power Nerf
6. Addition of Assault Vest
7. Glare Removal / Complex Ban
8. Addition of new hidden abilities

Imo, adding some legendaries is a solution that have been thrown around for 10 years now. Legendaries are not the solution to every single problem and if they are ever added to the game it will be because devs, working with finite amount of potential content, deem it is the right time to do so. Bans / Removals would be effective nerfs, but I personally do not like messing with what constitute the core moves, abilities and attributes of a pokemon. Bans / Removals should only be used as last resorts because they suck from a pve stand point, they create a tiering slippery slope and they also devalue the economic value of said pokemon. The addition of Assault Vest would only make Serperior better from what I can see so far. Therefore, the only potential solutions I would consider are reworking how the Defog mechanic interacts with Contrary and/or adding new abilities.

 

I'm not convinced removing the evasion boost is the right thing to do or would even be enough to actually nerf Serperior, but unlike the other solutions that have been suggested, I'm not inherently against it.

 

I believe the best solution is just to add new hidden abilities as soon as possible. I made the following post about that specific solution:

Spoiler

 

On 8/22/2022 at 11:28 PM, gbwead said:

I don't think any new Hidden Ability would be able to check Serperior entirely, but imo the following abilities would help to a small degree indirectly:

• Infiltrator (Chandelure/Crobat/Golbat/Jumpluff/Seviper/Ninjask/Spiritomb)
  Not only would Infiltrator help vs Serperior, it would also help a lot vs a lot of OU mons that have been deemed problematic at one point or another (Garchomp, Hydreigon, Breloom, etc.) Overall, I believe Infiltrator would not solve the Serperior issue, but would help while being a great addition to the tier.
   
• Sap Sipper (Miltank/Azumarill/Girafarig/Zebstrika/etc.)
  Most of the mons that would gain Sap Sipper do not seem great in OU, but perhaps some of them might become viable thanks to Sap Sipper. It's hard to tell, but it surely wouldn't hurt to have these options vs Serperior even if they might end up as unviable for OU.
   
• Technician (Breloom)
  Giving more raw power to Breloom's Mach Punch might not mean a lot, but against Serperior the extra dmg could end up as impactful in some situations. Also, if we get Infiltrator, Breloom would take a big hit in viability, so it would be nice if it got new tools as compensation.
   
• Swift Swim (Armaldo/Beartic)
  One of the most annoying thing about Serperior is how fast and bulky it is. Armaldo Swift Swim could be a good addition for Rain Teams vs Serperior since it would be able to OHKO Serperior, outspeed it with rain and also it would be able to take a Leaf Storm in the face without dying.
   
• Magic Guard (Alakazam)
  If Alakazam gained Magic Guard, it would definetly become viable in OU and gaining a new mon able to outspeed Serperior would certainly not hurt. Considering there is a chance Alakazam ends up BL2, this could also be its saving grace. The main issue with this addition is that Magic Guard Alakazam might end up as something "too good", so this should require more thoughts.
   
• Drought (Ninetales) & Drizzle (Politoed)
  Weather teams usually have several mons capable of outspeeding Serperior. Giving those teams more weather set up options could only help.
   
• Speed Boost (Scolipede/Sharpedo)
  I'm not sure how viable these would be but, gaining new mons capable of outspeeding Serperior would be nice. Pin Missile Scolipede would definetly annoy Serperior if it tries to hide behind a sub.

 

Ultimately the best ability would most likely be Regenerator since that would make Amoongus extremely viable in OU. However, adding new Regenerator mons would be imo horrible in PokeMMO considering we have a 1 hour time limit for duel and Regenerator mons would open the door for disgusting game exploits. I'm sure other hidden abilities could help vs Serperior, I just listed the ones I think could have a meaningful impact.

 

Please do not give Regenerator to new pokemons. The damage to the game would be irreparable.

 

I do not know if we will ever get part 3 of the anniversary event, but I think we all expect an Halloween event in 1 month. I would like to point out that giving Infiltrator to Chandelure, Crobat, Golbat, Spiritomb, Seviper and Ninjask during the Halloween event would fit the Halloween them perfectly. Even shiny Jumpluff has been reported several times as evil:

Spoiler

 

Sap Sipper is really nice versus Serperior, but considering that the mons with that ability might not be good enough for OU, I do not think getting Sap Sipper is not as important as getting Infiltrator. With that being said, if Devs are concerned with adding new hidden abilities based on PVE themes, I believe almost all mons affected by Sap Sipper have been commonly seen during Chinese New Year events:

• Azumarill (Rabbit)
• Girafarig, Stantler, Sawsbuck & Zebstrika (Horse)
• Miltank (Ox)

As for the remaining abilities, I'm not really sure if the XMAS event theme is a good excuse to add them. I guess giving Magic Guard to Alakazam could be seen as an XMAS miracle?!?

 

Anyhow, as much as I hate Serperior right now, I really do not want devs/staff to fuck up with a solution that would be overkill (legendaries), that would miss the mark entirely (assault vest) or that would destroy Serperior beyond recognition (Bans, Complex bans, moves getting nerfs, etc.) I think the competitive scene can be patient as long as something gets done in the short term and Halloween is only one month away, so...

Edited September 29, 2022 by gbwead

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Mkns1070 said:

boufalant 😄

Finally, a man of culture o7

[TohnR]

Wait I disagree with a lot of what you said about Serperior (but will not argue since I'm not an OU player and it's none of my business) but I actually agree with your conclusion gbwead.
A wise man has spoken.
Only issue is we can't rely on the devs to fix any issue with the tiers balancing unless we are given guarantees that they are taking action of adding said HAs 😞 

Edited September 29, 2022 by TohnR

[Munya]

I mean, HAs are going to happen, its inevitable at this point, I just don't know which and when.

[Havsha]

57 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Before going into what should be the right solutions for the problem, I urge the following players that have defended Serperior in the past to speak up now:

@DiosSlurpuff

@Deploic

@Havsha

@Quilachy

I don't really think I need to add my 2 cents, the points I've raised have already been mentioned in this thread, but tbh just based on how many players seem to be supporting a serp ban, well that's more than enough to convince me, I'm by no means an expert, if the majority of the community believe its busted, its probably busted

[caioxlive13]

 

53 minutes ago, gbwead said:

So far, we have several posts recognizing that Serperior is a problem that needs to be addressed (Chuck only considers the evasion as a problem):

Before going into what should be the right solutions for the problem, I urge the following players that have defended Serperior in the past to speak up now:

@DiosSlurpuff

@Deploic

@Havsha

@Quilachy

 

Since Serperior is OU, it's safe to say that even if it is deemed banworthy it will get nerfed directly or indirectly instead of getting banned. Here are the solutions I have seen suggested so far:

1. Remove the evasion boost that Serperior gets when an opposing pokemon uses Defog against it
2. Add some legendaries
3. Contrary Removal / Ban
4. Leaf Storm Removal / Complex Ban
5. Leaf Storm Base Power Nerf
6. Addition of Assault Vest
7. Glare Removal / Complex Ban
8. Addition of new hidden abilities

Imo, adding some legendaries is a solution that have been thrown around for 10 years now. Legendaries are not the solution to every single problem and if they are ever added to the game it will be because devs, working with finite amount of potential content, deem it is the right time to do so. Bans / Removals would be effective nerfs, but I personally do not like messing with what constitute the core moves, abilities and attributes of a pokemon. Bans / Removals should only be used as last resorts because they suck from a pve stand point, they create a tiering slippery slope and they also devalue the economic value of said pokemon. The addition of Assault Vest would only make Serperior better from what I can see so far. Therefore, the only potential solutions I would consider are reworking how the Defog mechanic interacts with Contrary and/or adding new abilities.

 

I'm not convinced removing the evasion boost is the right thing to do or would even be enough to actually nerf Serperior, but unlike the other solutions that have been suggested, I'm not inherently against it.

 

I believe the best solution is just to add new hidden abilities as soon as possible. I made the following post about that specific solution:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Please do not give Regenerator to new pokemons. The damage to the game would be irreparable.

 

I do not know if we will ever get part 3 of the anniversary event, but I think we all expect an Halloween event in 1 month. I would like to point out that giving Infiltrator to Chandelure, Crobat, Golbat, Spiritomb, Seviper and Ninjask during the Halloween event would fit the Halloween them perfectly. Even shiny Jumpluff has been reported several times as evil:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Sap Sipper is really nice versus Serperior, but considering that the mons with that ability might not be good enough for OU, I do not think getting Sap Sipper is not as important as getting Infiltrator. With that being said, if Devs are concerned with adding new hidden abilities based on PVE themes, I believe almost all mons affected by Sap Sipper have been commonly seen during Chinese New Year events:

• Azumarill (Rabbit)
• Girafarig, Stantler, Sawsbuck & Zebstrika (Horse)
• Miltank (Ox)

As for the remaining abilities, I'm not really sure if the XMAS event theme is a good excuse to add them. I guess giving Magic Guard to Alakazam could be seen as an XMAS miracle?!?

 

Anyhow, as much as I hate Serperior right now, I really do not want devs/staff to fuck up with a solution that would be overkill (legendaries), that would miss the mark entirely (assault vest) or that would destroy Serperior beyond recognition (Bans, Complex bans, moves getting nerfs, etc.) I think the competitive scene can be patient as long as something gets done in the short term and Halloween is only one month away, so...

And i wish to comment only about one topic. About Evasion problem. I don't see it as a problem on Singles Metagaming. Before HA introductions, Rotom-W have few answers and not all things could OHKO it, and the few ones are more slower than it(Also you need to know the spread that your opponent are using) , so before a player could enter and as long as their Rotom don't loss 30+% of health, next turn he could defog for free, without any consequence. Now with serperior, we can actually do a reason to opponent think before defog, punish him on Switch-in. However we have a problem on Doubles, because players can aim defog on their allies, making they raise serperior's evasion intentionally and can be anticompetitive. A quick solution without any/minimum collateral damage would be make defog unable to aim allies.