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[OU Discussion] Serperior


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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Anyhow, as much as I hate Serperior right now, I really do not want devs/staff to fuck up with a solution that would be overkill (legendaries), that would miss the mark entirely (assault vest) or that would destroy Serperior beyond recognition (Bans, Complex bans, moves getting nerfs, etc.) I think the competitive scene can be patient as long as something gets done in the short term and Halloween is only one month away, so...

Adding new HAs 100% feels like the best thing to do but my initial thought was a bit pessimistic. Are we going to get enough of them in the next batch that adequately counter or check Serp? I can’t speak for anyone else but I know that I would be annoyed if we ban Serp & the newly added HAs (presumably in October) aren’t ones that counter Serperior. Hopefully the devs take PVP into account when they decide what mons get access to their HAs. I just don’t want us to have this same discussion in February when the events are over. 

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While I do believe Serperior is incredibly difficult to deal with in the current OU metagame, I'd find it a real shame if it was nerfed enough to remove it from OU simply for the fact it's very refreshing to see a Pokemon actually able to not only come in on Rotom W, but also punish it.

 

Personally, I think if removing Glare was a possibility that would be adequate. 

 

While seeing what Serperior can do in play, it's hard to believe it's only a 95 75 base power Pokemon which means without it's gargantuan 130 BP STAB Leaf Storm coupled with it's ability to go +2 with contrary, it doesn't actually do a great deal to a large quantity of offensive threats in OU which have priority or are faster with scarf.

 

The issue is, paralysis is the bane to all naturally fast/scarf Pokemon.

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Having another viable grass type in OU has been healthy for the meta IMO. It helps keep rain in check and is a nice answer to Rotom-Wash (which still has a higher play rate than the Mon we are discussing btw). I think an outright ban of contrary Serp would be too heavy handed. I'd hate to see it deleted completely from the meta. Not to mention the backlash from the community as it is quite expensive to breed an HA Serp.

 

Although I think contrary Serp should stay, I can see where some of the other commenters are coming from regarding serps power level as it currently stands. 

 

Introducing new items may have unintended consequences. I think there are some non-invasive easy ways to tune down Serperiors power level.

 

1. Remove glare from it's movepool. This will give faster revenge killers a chance to deal with Serp.

 

2. Reduce the accuracy on leaf storm. A drop to 80 or even 70 accuracy will help reduce the reliability of immediate contrary power boosts.

 

3. As previously mention release HA mons with infiltrator. This will help deal with not only Serps with sub but other sub mons as well. 

 

I think implemention of one or several of these changes will help tune down the power level of Serp but still allow it a place in the meta. 

 

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8 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

While I do believe Serperior is incredibly difficult to deal with in the current OU metagame, I'd find it a real shame if it was nerfed enough to remove it from OU simply for the fact it's very refreshing to see a Pokemon actually able to not only come in on Rotom W, but also punish it.

 

Personally, I think if removing Glare was a possibility that would be adequate. 

 

While seeing what Serperior can do in play, it's hard to believe it's only a 95 base power Pokemon which means without it's gargantuan 130 BP STAB Leaf Storm coupled with it's ability to go +2 with contrary, it doesn't actually do a great deal to a large quantity of offensive threats in OU which have priority or are faster with scarf.

 

The issue is, paralysis is the bane to all naturally fast/scarf Pokemon.

you mean 75.

Yeah, serp does nothing at +0. It cant even sweep offensive teams at +2. It needs a minimum of +4in order to run through teams.

Unfortunately, grass spam is so free in OU 😞

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I don't think cryptically making vague comments, or throwing out sarcastic remarks helps anyone on either side. In the future I ask can people please stop doing this, as it adds nothing to the discussion other than filler and you come across as an asshole. List off names of mons, provide calcs. Thanks.

Edited by Luke
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2 hours ago, pachima said:

you mean 75.

Yeah, serp does nothing at +0. It cant even sweep offensive teams at +2. It needs a minimum of +4in order to run through teams.

Unfortunately, grass spam is so free in OU 😞

It was because before,we don't have any decent grass-type offense, only Breloom(Actually OU with around 5% usage, before with 7-9% usage) , Rotom-Mow(That are struggling to keep on UU, before OU with 5-8% usage ) and Ferrothorn(However Curse offense is uncommon, they use more defensively with Leech Seed + Hazards Spam and occasionaly Thunder Wave).  Because of that, pokemon weak to grass dominate the meta. Some good examples are Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Rotom-Wash. Serperior if buff can shutdown those three and with a buff aren't hopeless vs Garchomp(Not scarf) and Scizor.

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So I'm gonna preface this with the fact that my only experience with pokeMMO OU is spectating it while I wait for eggs to hatch. I used Serp quite a bit back in gen 6 and it is a pokemon I'm very fond of so I wouldn't like to see a ban or HA removal. That being said there are definitely far fewer effective tools available to work around it so I can definitely see why change might be necessary. That's already been said before though so let me actually try to add something to the discussion.

 

Serperior's relatively good bulk is rightfully pointed out in the first post. It's base 95 in both defenses is pretty good, 75 base hp is definitely workable. What I haven't really seen anyone talk about is investing some EVs into bulk. All the calcs in the first post are done with 0 EVs which is odd to me.

 

Serp's base speed is incredibly good. So good in fact that it doesn't need to invest 252 EVs in speed. It's fairly safe to drop your speed to 179. The only pokemon in that range are Rampardos and Scrafty, neither of which are a problem. This then gives you 16 EVs to put into bulk.

 

Serp's base 75 special attack isn't the best, contrary's boosts are what gives it the damage output. It'll still be a threat even with lower special attack investment. 56 HP was a common investment back in gen 6 OU to let your substitute survive uninvested hydro pumps from Rotom-W. Investing 220 EVs into special attack still lets you guarantee a 2HKO after leftovers on Blissey at +6. Chansey is a little tougher to crack, requiring 236 EVs and rocks damage for a 2HKO. I wouldn't know exactly how much is practical, 236 seems to be but I can't say for sure.

 

I'm not saying that its absurdly good defensively but the snake has the room to be a little bulkier than you might expect. Leftovers along with access to giga drain, substitute, leech seed and synthesis make for a decent amount of longevity already. So, I think that this room for investment into bulk, while it's a small thing, shouldn't be overlooked.

 

Removing Glare seems like a good solution to me. Leech seed could maybe also work if a smaller nerf is desired. I could see it not being enough though.

Edited by NotMyWaifu
typo
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On 10/2/2022 at 3:18 PM, LifeStyleNORE said:

I'm just going to say removing Glare from ANY pokemon might just be one of the dumbest ideas I've seen. Unfortunately it's getting some traction as more and more people are suggesting it. Relying on paralyze is still a risk for the Serp user. The problem is Contrary, plain and simple. 

With 1 button it cripples practically every offensive switch in lol, it's about the reduction in speed not the "relying on paralyze".

 

Removing glare will give plenty more switches into Serp. That's factual. Removing Contrary on the other hand(which would also work) seems like a very awkward situation for the TC.

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4 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

With 1 button it cripples practically every offensive switch in lol, it's about the reduction in speed not the "relying on paralyze".

 

Removing glare will give plenty more switches into Serp. That's factual. Removing Contrary on the other hand(which would also work) seems like a very awkward situation for the TC.

Serperior is 113 base speed, it doesn't need Glare to outspeed most of OU. In fact, a lot of the stuff that naturally outspeed Serperior don't enjoy switching into Leaf Storm either, especially with Rocks on the field. I mean, people also complain about SubLeech but the answer is getting rid of Glare? And even if we pretend that Glare is the thing limiting offensive switches, what about defensive ones? Is Glare limiting them or is it the spam of 130 BP move with Nasty Plot side effect? I'm pretty sure removing Glare is just pointless as it wouldn't really nerf Serperior, just delaying the inevitable.

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5 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Serperior is 113 base speed, it doesn't need Glare to outspeed most of OU.

It needs Glare in order to outspeed possible choice scarf pokemon that it could otherwise lose to. Hydreigon, Pelipper, Togekiss, Darmanitan, Dragonite, Gengar, Weavile, Infernape, Chandelure, Salamence, Cloyster, Heracross and Mamoswine come to mind. It also needs Glare in order to outspeed swift swim users in the rain like Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops. And it also needs Glare in order to outspeed a few pokemon that are naturally faster than it like Starmie, Crobat and Aerodactyl. That is a significant amount of pokemon that can outspeed it.

 

5 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

In fact, a lot of the stuff that naturally outspeed Serperior don't enjoy switching into Leaf Storm either, especially with Rocks on the field.

Yep, a bunch of the pokemon I just mentioned don't enjoy switching into leaf storm. The ones that don't mind are usually hit super effectively by HP fire or ice. But Serp's base special attack is only 75. So while these pokemon don't like being chipped, they can switch into a hit and then outspeed and deal enough damage to stop the snake. It's not like you always have to switch them in directly either with the prevalence of U-turn, volt switch and teleport.

 

5 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

I mean, people also complain about SubLeech but the answer is getting rid of Glare? And even if we pretend that Glare is the thing limiting offensive switches, what about defensive ones? Is Glare limiting them or is it the spam of 130 BP move with Nasty Plot side effect? I'm pretty sure removing Glare is just pointless as it wouldn't really nerf Serperior, just delaying the inevitable.

You cannot tell beforehand which Serperior set your opponent is running. If it's Glare you can't switch in your offensive checks, if it's SubSeed you can't switch in your defensive checks. The presence of both of these sets is a big factor in how difficult it is to deal with. If it did not have Glare the things that hate being paralyzed would become a much more reliable answer. If it didn't have SubSeed the things don't like that set would become a much more reliable answer.

 

It's not just the combination of Leaf storm and Contrary; until you know its moves you have to respect the glare set, the subseed set and the possible coverage it has. That on a pokemon that you'll mostly want to revenge kill is what pushes Serp to be as powerful as it is. There isn't a whole lot that likes switching into Conkeldurr either, but on top of the speed difference Conk not having as much utility is definitely a factor in how it's viewed.

 

If you were to remove Glare or Leech seed you remove one of those options and because you have to cover for fewer options it becomes easier to bring a reliable check. It also means that the matchups it won using that option are no longer winning. I don't see how that isn't a nerf. Unless you meant it's not enough of one, and fair enough that could be the case.

 

Echoing what Kaynine said, removing Contrary would also do this. But given that that comes with gutting Serp's viability in doubles where it's not an issue, dropping it back to NU and killing off Servine's viability in NU I would prefer they didn't do that. We don't have an Ubers or Anything goes tier, so outright banning things should be a last resort. Looking at Serp's usage and winrate and what's being said I'm not convinced that that is necessary just yet.

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Glare is one of the best tool Serperior can use. Removing that option is a huge nerf, a nerf that would be more than enough to make Serperior acceptable. I don't want that to happen because I believe there are better solutions tho.

Glare is ideal when you have multiple sub users on your team (serperior being one of them usually). Glare is also ideal when you pair Serperior with slow mons. Glare is also ideal with mons that have the capacity to flinch like Togekiss. Glare is ideal when all other moves would have low impact. 

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15 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Serperior is 113 base speed, it doesn't need Glare to outspeed most of OU. 

Without any boost, yes. Most of OU cannot outspeed Serperior. But a quick reminder, choice scarf exists. Since all serperior moves depend of Leaf Storm boosts to do any damage, serp can't use scarf. And a plent of serp checks can use scarfs. Removing glare ends the problem, because those mons will keep outspeeding serperior without fearing glare. I'm against removing leech seed, because only defensive threats will be comfortable against Serperior, but i don't want to use stall only because of him.

Edited by caioxlive13
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12 hours ago, gbwead said:

Glare is one of the best tool Serperior can use. Removing that option is a huge nerf, a nerf that would be more than enough to make Serperior acceptable. I don't want that to happen because I believe there are better solutions tho.

I agree on a Temporary Complex Ban of Glare. Any solution involve adding a item or HA, or Legendary. Until they become added, i agree that Glare should be removed from Serperior's Learnset, but after some solutions enter on metagaming, they add Glare back to Serperior's learnset. Like happened with Dugtrio, after being banned from NU, they reverted the atk nerf (Dugtrio has 100 atk, previously have 80) and after some time, they ban it from UU too(LOL).

But i agree that some solutions can end not only with Serperior's issue, but with other issues too. For example, adding Heatran to OU metagaming, a good check to serperior if timed correctly, will basically force Tier Council to ban Arena Trap Dugtrio, that could be paired with Serperior. The community talk about Dugtrio's uncompetitiveness on metagaming due to their OP ability Arena Trap, and this will be the ultimately reason to banning him from OU.

Edited by caioxlive13
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49 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

I agree on a Temporary Complex Ban of Glare. Any solution involve adding a item or HA, or Legendary. Until they become added, i agree that Glare should be removed from Serperior's Learnset, but after some solutions enter on metagaming, they add Glare back to Serperior's learnset. Like happened with Dugtrio, after being banned from NU, they reverted the atk nerf (Dugtrio has 100 atk, previously have 80) and after some time, they ban it from UU too(LOL).

But i agree that some solutions can end not only with Serperior's issue, but with other issues too. For example, adding Heatran to OU metagaming, a good check to serperior if timed correctly, will basically force Tier Council to ban Arena Trap Dugtrio, that could be paired with Serperior. The community talk about Dugtrio's uncompetitiveness on metagaming due to their OP ability Arena Trap, and this will be the ultimately reason to banning him from OU.

I don't know why you quoted me saying you agree with a temporary complex ban, when I never suggested that.

Also, I don't want to be mean, but I really think you should take a step back before posting in these  discussions. You have a tendency to read others' opinions seeking to validate your own narrative of what happened in the past and what will/would happen in the future. You often end up reaching conclusions with very flawed assumptions about causes and consequences.

 

Let me explain based on the following facts:

  • Dugtrio was banned from NU.
  • Dugtrio had 80 base atk when it was NU.
  • Dugtrio got buffed to 100 base atk after it got banned from NU.

Those things do not add up to:

Quote

Dugtrio, after being banned from NU, they reverted the atk nerf (Dugtrio has 100 atk, previously have 80) and after some time, they ban it from UU too(LOL).

It's not because Dugtrio got buffed after getting banned from NU that it means Dugtrio got buffed because it got banned. After all, Dugtrio had 80 base atk since 2012 in PokeMMO. It was never nerfed to 80 base atk, that's how it always was. Dugtrio got recently buffed, that's not a reverted nerf.

 

And also, even if what you were saying was true, it still has nothing to do with temporary complex bans.

 

 

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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56 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I don't know why you quoted me saying you agree with a temporary complex ban, when I never suggested that.

Also, I don't want to be mean, but I really think you should take a step back before posting in these  discussions. You have a tendency to read others' opinions seeking to validate your own narrative of what happened in the past and what will/would happen in the future. You often end up reaching conclusions with very flawed assumptions about causes and consequences.

 

Let me explain based on the following facts:

  • Dugtrio was banned from NU.
  • Dugtrio had 80 base atk when it was NU.
  • Dugtrio got buffed to 100 base atk after it got banned from NU.

Those things do not add up to:

It's not because Dugtrio got buffed after getting banned from NU that it means Dugtrio got buffed because it got banned. After all, Dugtrio had 80 base atk since 2012 in PokeMMO. It was never nerfed to 80 base atk, that's how it always was. Dugtrio got recently buffed, that's not a reverted nerf.

 

And also, even if what you were saying was true, it still has nothing to do with temporary complex bans.

 

 

 

 

You agree that Glare is the best tool that Serperior have, and i consider good idea remove it. But only temporarily. When new answers to Serperior becomes avaliable, then he can have Glare back.

Also, adding one of Serperior's possible answers , Heatran, will make dugtrio being insta-banned from OU, resolving a old issue. About dugtrio "nerf", later MMO devs decied to follow recent buffs/changes from current gens. The nerf on Dugtrio is the fact that he, along with Gen 4 Knock Off, kept the old versions, that are worse compared to recent ones. They neveer followed the Gen 7, and becomed stuck at the old gens versions. Only after banning Dugtrio for NU, for the... 15th time? idk... they decided to buff dugtrio to current gens version to avoid it below NU cut-off(They expect that dugtrio becomes a UU staple, but after this buff they became too overpowered to UU and gets banned from UU). 

Edited by caioxlive13
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8 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

You agree that Glare is the best tool that Serperior have, and i consider good idea remove it. But only temporarily. When new answers to Serperior becomes avaliable, then he can have Glare back.

I said one of the best, not the best. Please take more time before replying.

 

Dugtrio traps way more than just Heatran, there is no need to tunnel vision on that mon that will not even get added anyways.

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tl;dr

There's literally not many HA pokes, the devs just took some pokes gave HA and slept again there was supposed to be a part 3 event(maybe more HAs as well) yet the meta is running for months with this broken serperior..

On 9/28/2022 at 10:21 PM, Imperial said:

Temporarily ban/nerf Serperior until the next batch of HAs are introduced and then reintroduce it when the meta can better adapt 

This would be the best solution atm

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I honestly don't understand the people here. We've been waiting for years for a meta change to really make an impact. Finally one has occurred, and they want to reverse it. In my opinion, the best solution is not to ban Serperior and it's not the best solution to remove its Hidden Ability either. The best thing to do is simply remove Glare from their Learnset. A lot of people say it won't change anything. If you play stall, the set you should be worried about is SubSeed, so it doesn't really change (And you really deserve to lose to stop using stall). But removing Glare will allow many Pokémon that feared Glare to be able to safely enter vs Serperior. Some examples are Hydreigon Scarf, Crobat, Togekiss Scarf, Volcarona, Weavile...

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13 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

I honestly don't understand the people here. We've been waiting for years for a meta change to really make an impact. Finally one has occurred, and they want to reverse it. In my opinion, the best solution is not to ban Serperior and it's not the best solution to remove its Hidden Ability either. The best thing to do is simply remove Glare from their Learnset. A lot of people say it won't change anything. If you play stall, the set you should be worried about is SubSeed, so it doesn't really change (And you really deserve to lose to stop using stall). But removing Glare will allow many Pokémon that feared Glare to be able to safely enter vs Serperior. Some examples are Hydreigon Scarf, Crobat, Togekiss Scarf, Volcarona, Weavile...

safely hydreigon scarf ?

you come 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 42-50 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

you attack with your best move 252+ SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 114-136 (76 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and you die +2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 146-174 (87.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

people who play stall deserve to lose?
why because we don't play the same way as you?

 

Does the game only play the way you want?

 

 

Edited by MadaraSixSix
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16 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

Serperior is not broken y'all just focused on finding defensive counters to it when all you need is to predict right with offensive counters

It has no offensive counters nub, it only has checks and there are only few of them, most "offensive counters" for Serp are legendaries

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7 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

safely hydreigon scarf ?

you come 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 42-50 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

you attack with your best move 252+ SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 114-136 (76 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and you die +2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 146-174 (87.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

people who play stall deserve to lose?
why because we don't play the same way as you?

 

Does the game only play the way you want?

 

 

Even if you don't KO, he are on a range to any priority user Revenge Kill it. Now Glare is worse situation, because they glare you on first switch in and serperior exit from field. Next time serperior enter, you take leaf storm and then take DPulse without do any damage on serperior.

 

Also, glare create a comfortable situation to many other mons. Hydreigon as a example, after glare he can't pass most part, if not all , of OU dragons anymore. If serperior is HP Fire and not HP rock, volca could have a chance. This chance is complety destroyed if take Glare, because on next turn, any mon faster than volca can enter and destroy. Infernape Stone Edge and Darma are good example of mons that can do supereffective damage on volca. 

Volca enter:

200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 33-39 (10.6 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO

Next turn, using Quiver Dance:

+2 200 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 83-98 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Maximum % damage is 44% , survive even with rocks on your field.

Then:

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 474-558 (155.4 - 182.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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On 9/28/2022 at 8:51 PM, MadaraSixSix said:

I really like this post it explains the problems of serperior very well

 

i think using the chansey teleport + weavile combos to manage a single pokemon is a lot of effort
(and if weavile 2hit dont kill)
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
when the other opponent uses only one pokemon

 

the defog that increases dodge is anecdotal
the problem of serp is all of what it accomplishes
there this bosst +2 with a strong move (leaf strom 130power)
it has a very good bulk and one of the best speed in the game
and it has enough to glare or leech seed
to win against golbat or weezing for example

i always ohko serps with icicle spear weav

 

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