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[UU Discussion] Feraligatr


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What is this?

 

This thread is being opened to discuss Feraligatr and its predominance in the Underused Tier (UU).

 

Overview:

 

With access to Sheer Force, the Alligator is dominating with the most current usage + best win rate in all tiers thanks to its hidden ability. With setup options like Dragon Dance and Sword Dance, it makes Feraligatr a strong wallbreaker and sweeper. Additionally, thanks to Feraligatr's decent bulk, it can survive some hits from common Pokemon:

 

Spoiler

+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 132-156 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+1 252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 115-136 (71.4 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 128-152 (79.5 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 138-164 (85.7 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Arcanine Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 101-119 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 142-168 (88.1 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 106-126 (65.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 132-156 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 132-156 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 107-127 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 128-151 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 138-164 (85.7 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 121-144 (75.1 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 126-148 (78.2 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 103-122 (63.9 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 134-160 (83.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Flygon Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 101-122 (62.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 145-172 (90 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 97-115 (60.2 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Roserade Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 146-174 (90.6 - 108%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

252+ SpA Mismagius Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 114-136 (70.8 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 129-152 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 107-127 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 138-164 (85.7 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 124-147 (77 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 142-168 (88.1 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

252 SpA Rotom-Heat/Mow Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 120-144 (74.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 130-154 (80.7 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Krookodile Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 105-124 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Krookodile Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 104-123 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 133-159 (82.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 114-135 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Night Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 83-99 (51.5 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 83-99 (51.5 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 130-153 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 130-153 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Keep in mind these calcs are all 0 bulk invested which makes it really scary how its able to tank those hits.

 

Sets on Feraligatr

 

  • Dragon Dance / lce Punch / Waterfall / Crunch
  • Dragon Dance / Crunch / Waterfall / Aqua Jet
  • Sword Dance / Crunch / lce Punch / Aqua Jet
  • Sword Dance / Waterfall / Aqua Jet / Crunch

 

Notable moves: Superpower can hurt mons like Umbreon and Earthquake can hurt Toxicroak.

 

Notable points: With Sheer Force, it denies added effect. The most common one are: Flinch (Waterfall), Def drop (Crunch) , Freeze/Flinch (lce Punch) 

 

 

Checks/Counters

 

  • Poliwrath`s type completely denies the alligator to set up. The most common moves does not make Poliwrath scared at all. With rocky helmet it will hurt itself more than hitting the Frog.
  • Vaporeon with access to Wish/Haze it can tank DD Fera and use scald which Feraligatr is scared of. (it might struggle vs SD)
  • Dusclops can live +1 (DD) or a +2 (SD)  Crunch and can either Will-O-Wisp or Haze so your scarfer can revenge kill it.
  • Druddigon and Slowbro can chip damage a ton with Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin making Fera lose health quickly.
  • Quagsire is able to wall the DD set of Fera and isn't afraid of a potential defense drop/freeze. Rocky helmet, Haze and Recover will handle it (it might struggle vs SD)
  • Gastrodon clear smog is a big threat to DD Feraligtr to deny him to set up. (it might struggle vs SD)

 

 

 

Give us your input and discuss

Link to comment
20 minutes ago, PoseidonWrath said:

Notable moves: Superpower can hurt mons like Umbreon and Earthquake can hurt Toxicroak.

 

hey really cool to see this thread you are really putting effort in these threads. I personally havent played a lot uu recently so i wont comment on fera (altough i hope it gets banned). but i just wated to mention that ice punch is enough to ohko toxicroack after dd (what is insane lol) so eq isn't rly needed.
 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 144-170 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Link to comment

I haven't played UU too much recently so it may be better for other players to comment, but the thing I've found most difficult is predicting whether Feraligatr is a Dragon Dance or Swords Dance set (primarily it used to be Dragon Dance but now we're seeing Swords Dance used more).

 

As an offensive player, this can be quite annoying. There are ways around both, with scarf mons being able to outspeed +1 DD users and faster mons being able to revenge kill SD sets assuming it's not chipped enough and Feraligatr hasn't set up enough to die to Aqua Jet.

 

Some additional input to add to your checks/counters list:

  • Bold Gastrodon - You're required to correctly switch in before Feraligatr sets up minimum +1, otherwise it can immediately die before it can use Clear Smog.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 100-118 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

I agree about the other checks/counters - it would be pretty sad that players have to use Quagsire in UU with the sole purpose of stopping Feraligatr. Also not as reliable, there is also Mandibuzz as an option. Tangrowth can also be another niche option to check Feraligatr, but again just like Qaugsire, we shouldn't need to use this in UU just for that purpose.

 

Feraligatr doesn't necessarily need Superpower to deal with Umbreon (assuming it's + sp def nature)

 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 6 Def Umbreon: 152-179 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (you do need to add around 20-30 def EVs and it should be a 2KO)

 

Feraligatr on its own can be dealt with, but what I've noticed is some players pairing Feraligatr + Blastoise together, meaning that both can significantly wear your team down unless you play certain mons to handle both (e.g. Vaporeon), play more defensively or have a lot of priority. Something to note as well is that none of Feraligatr's checks (I won't count Driddigon or unaware Clefable) has access to stealth rocks, so you will always have to give up an additional 1-2 slots minimum to prepare for Feraligatr alone.

 

Overall, I find this an issue, but perhaps it's because I don't want to force myself to play certain mons to deal with it effectively. Banworthy? I'll wait for more active players in the tier to comment and decide.

Edited by Imperial
Link to comment

Personally I don' think fera is a problem when it is used alone. But that in itself is extremely unlikely. It will always be paired with something that counters its (low amount of) counters. 

A point could however be made that other mons have these qualities aswell, but imo the amount of reasonable counters there are for feraligatr are the lowest out of any pokemon in the tier.

 

When building a team nowadays you basically need to add vaporeon/gastrodon/other counters to feraligatr, but all some of those counters would lose pretty easily to other attackers in the tier, making it extremely difficult to teambuild when having to keep feraligatr in mind.

 

The fact that SD fera breaks through some of these counters is absolutely insane though. Having a mon in a tier where basically nothing can reliably wall it is crazy.

If you add the fact that aqua jet hits a lot of the tiers scarf users for super effective damage also matters, for example rotom heat and krookodile.

That limits teambuilding even more, quite frankly makes me scared to even use those sets on rotom/krook seeing as the main goal of scarfers nowadays is a fallback counter to feraligatr.

 

Quite frankly feraligatr is super scary in the tier. I would say it's unhealthy because it forces people nowadays to either use a lot of walls to not only counter feraligatr, but also the pokemon it's paired with.

On the other side you could use HO aswell

However being forced into either HO or (semi-)stall is way too limiting.

As feraligatr has appeared in the tier, UU has basically existed out of those 2 types of teams, with me only managing to make a couple reasonable team that are not HO or full stall.

Link to comment
On 10/1/2022 at 7:35 PM, Quinn010 said:

hey really cool to see this thread you are really putting effort in these threads. I personally havent played a lot uu recently so i wont comment on fera (altough i hope it gets banned). but i just wated to mention that ice punch is enough to ohko toxicroack after dd (what is insane lol) so eq isn't rly needed.
 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 144-170 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Before EQ was deemed on Fera because of Empoleon. This maked the control of Fera on UU, limiting their Coverage moves(Ice Punch and Crunch) to 1. Without Crunch, he basically can't do anything to Dusclops(And he still can't do much vs him) and Slowbro, and wihout Ice Punch, Rotom-Mow becomes a easily counter. Now without empoleon, he can run both and get a good coverage vs some mons that could beat it.

Link to comment
On 10/2/2022 at 10:13 AM, KevinDaPokeTrain said:

However being forced into either HO or (semi-)stall is way too limiting.

 

This point is wrong, I've been playing balanced without Feraligatr all month of September with relatively good success (I finished like 4th or something) over hundred of games, without any of the Feraligatr counters you just named. You can play any style in Under Used as of right now. 

Feraligatr is an extremely good and viable mon overall, while Dragon Dance is great against offensive teams, Swords Dance is great against defensive teams & balanced
However it has far more checks than mons such as Mamoswine and Absol which aren't problematic at all, first one being unable to setup, and second one being less bulky than Feral.
 

On 10/2/2022 at 12:12 AM, PoseidonWrath said:
  • Poliwrath`s type completely denies the alligator to set up. The most common moves does not make Poliwrath scared at all. With rocky helmet it will hurt itself more than hitting the Frog.
  • Vaporeon with access to Wish/Haze it can tank DD Fera and use scald which Feraligatr is scared of. (it might struggle vs SD)
  • Dusclops can live +1 (DD) or a +2 (SD)  Crunch and can either Will-O-Wisp or Haze so your scarfer can revenge kill it.
  • Druddigon and Slowbro can chip damage a ton with Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin making Fera lose health quickly.
  • Quagsire is able to wall the DD set of Fera and isn't afraid of a potential defense drop/freeze. Rocky helmet, Haze and Recover will handle it (it might struggle vs SD)
  • Gastrodon clear smog is a big threat to DD Feraligtr to deny him to set up. (it might struggle vs SD)

I'd like to add to this list.
First I don't think Slowbro has any impact on the discussion except for being one of the mons capable of spreading Rocky Helmet cheap to Feraligatr when predicting STABs


In the current way the tier is, Feraligatr has pretty much 3 options : Dragon Dance with Jet, Dragon Dance with Ice Punch and Swords Dance with Jet
Considering that Waterfall and Crunch combo with Life Orb power boost are absolutely mandatory moves and the whole reason why Feraligatr could be discussed as banworthy

3 out of 3 of those sets lose against Poliwrath. It is 100% the best pokemon to counter it and is quite viable in the tier as it also counters Durant, Bisharp, Snorlax, checks Mamoswine and Krookodile, as well as spread Rocky Helmet damage to Uturn users such as Flygon. Main issue with this mon is that it mostly shines as a defensive threat and doesn't accomplish much in balanced/offense.
2 out of 3 of those sets (Both Dragon Dance ones) are checked by Vaporeon, Umbreon, Tangrowth, Gastrodon & Blastoise.
It is also worth noting that those Feraligatr sets have a harder time against  Dusclops (WillOWisp), Druddigon (Multi recoil) Mandibuzz (+1 icepunch is a roll after rocks)
2 out of 3 of those sets (DD Jet and SD Jet) are checked by Mandibuzz, DruddigonTangrowth, Toxicroak, Rotom-Mow, Blastoise
It is worth noting that almost all sets of Feraligatr can get Revenge Killed by a plethora of mons given you don't give them too many free turns : Staraptor benefits from Intimidate to be able to actually take a Jet, Rotom-Mow / Roserade can use a choice scarf set to RK all variants, Sigilyph has recently been trending with a Focus Sash since it has access to coverage cabable of finishing off most setup sweepers available in the tier, Toxicroak has multiple sets that can usually provide solid revenge killing and has access to Fake Out + Sucker Punch combo if you really want to ensure RK. There's also Electrode that naturally outspeeds +1 Feraligatr and is capable of revenge killing if it knows an electric move (lol) and Crobat on a band set that should outspeed all Feraligatr since it is never played with the jolly nature. Ambipom & Pikachu with Double Priority could also be considered for your team

Now that all of that is said, is Feraligatr too strong or overcentralizing ?
I personally don't think so, but I'm looking to hear for more arguments and people's opinion on the subject as I'm currently on the fence myself.
My main concern with the mon is how much work it can do with just 1 coverage move (Crunch) and his STABs without an actual need to setup.
Feraligatr has one of the biggest damage outputs in the tier on the physical side with Waterfall and is hard to really cheap to a priority range. 
Another trait that makes Feraligatr as dangerous is the uncertainty in his EV spreads (Speed vs Bulk, both are viable) and his setup options (DD vs SD), since they might require different countermeasures from the player to effectively punish. It has a bulk that allows him to not only achieve wallbreaking (SD) or sweeping (DD) but also revenge killing against attackers such as Mamoswine, Bisharp, Krookodile, Durant ... 
I do think that it currently has a top tier viability and powerlevel in the tier, is definitely shaping the meta as all other top tier threats (Heatom, Crobat, Mamoswine, Machamp, Feraligatr) but I don't see Feraligatr itself as more restrictive than any of the other threats I named. 

 

Link to comment

I personally believe that Feraligatr fits offensive uber characteristics.

 

Without even considering versatility, I would like to analyze the following Fera set:

Feraligatr @ Life Orb  
Ability: Sheer Force  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 Atk / 156 Def / 100 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
IVs: 29 HP  
- Waterfall  
- Aqua Jet  
- Crunch  
- Swords Dance

 

Here is what happens to the UU mons based on usage when they switch into Feraligatr SD.

Spoiler

Blastoise

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise: 146-172 (94.8 - 111.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Blastoise Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 68-80 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Venomoth

Spoiler

252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 76-91 (47.7 - 57.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 126-149 (86.8 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 328-386 (226.2 - 266.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Arcanine

Spoiler

252+ Atk Choice Band Arcanine Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 130-154 (81.7 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 398-468 (241.2 - 283.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 151-182 (91.5 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Machamp

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 263-309 (159.3 - 187.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 49-58 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 55.3% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 101-121 (61.2 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Tentacruel

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 205-243 (109.6 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Slowbro

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 198-234 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Electrode

Spoiler
0 SpA Electrode Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 78-92 (49 - 57.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Electrode: 286-339 (171.2 - 202.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Electrode: 110-133 (65.8 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vaporeon

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 142-168 (59.9 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 29-34 (18.2 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO

Snorlax

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 308-364 (115.3 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Crobat

(Impish + Haze are mandatory vs SD set)

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Crobat: 181-214 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 103-123 (64.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 101-121 (63.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azumarill

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 175-207 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 175-207 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 92-109 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Umbreon

(Needs to stay healthy) (Needs some chip to kill with Foul Play)

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 148-175 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 132-156 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Wobbuffet

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wobbuffet: 291-343 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Forretress

(Sturdy + Counter can be annoying) (Volt Switch pivot can be nice)

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 125-148 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Forretress Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 42-50 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Heracross

Spoiler
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 127-151 (79.8 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 273-321 (176.1 - 207%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 107-126 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Donphan

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 281-330 (142.6 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 76-91 (47.7 - 57.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

Swampert

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 168-199 (81.1 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 168-199 (81.1 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Medicham

(Can only OHKO as CB HJK) 

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 273-321 (202.2 - 237.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 107-126 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 129-153 (81.1 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 35-42 (22 - 26.4%) -- 4.7% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 97-114 (61 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flygon

(Doesn't OHKO unless highest roll on +SpAtk Nature Draco Meteor Life Orb)

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 263-309 (169.6 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 263-309 (140.6 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 101-121 (65.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 101-121 (54 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 102-120 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Flygon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 134-160 (84.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Dusclops

(Dies even if it lands 85% wil-o-wisp)

Spoiler
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 117-140 (79.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force burned Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 58-70 (39.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Staraptor

(Doesn't OHKO even as CB) (Needs to stay above 53%)

Spoiler

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor: 220-259 (137.5 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor: 86-101 (53.7 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 126-148 (79.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Roserade

(Dies to Crunch + Aqua Jet) (Slower if 0 ev Speed)

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 60-70 (44.4 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Roserade Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 146-174 (91.8 - 109.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Gastrodon

(Needs to win multiple 50/50)

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 133-157 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Gastrodon Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 21-25 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO

Mismagius

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Mismagius: 125-148 (92.5 - 109.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mismagius Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 104-124 (65.4 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bronzong

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 142-169 (81.6 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Bronzong Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 58-70 (36.4 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Spiritomb

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 149-177 (94.9 - 112.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 67-81 (42.1 - 50.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO

Toxicroak

(Tpunch is mandatory, Drain Punch can't win at full hp)

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 101-120 (63.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 91-109 (57.2 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 68-82 (42.7 - 51.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO

Rhyperior

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 398-468 (179.2 - 210.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yanmegga

(comes down what item yanmegga is holding and how much chip yanmegga and fera have taken)

Spoiler

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 138-164 (86.7 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 125-148 (77.6 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 48-58 (29.8 - 36%) -- 38.3% chance to 3HKO

Mamoswine

Spoiler

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 121-144 (76.1 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 198-237 (107 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rotom-Heat

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 159-190 (101.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

8 SpA Rotom-Heat Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 98-116 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 304-359 (194.8 - 230.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rotom-Mow

(Pretty much always win)

Spoiler

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 224-266 (140.8 - 167.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 120-144 (75.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 39-47 (31.2 - 37.6%) -- 91.3% chance to 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 103-121 (82.4 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 138-162 (110.4 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gigalith

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gigalith: 351-413 (182.8 - 215.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Krookodile

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 203-242 (119.4 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scrafty

(Slower even with 252 Speed)

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 195-230 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sigilyph

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 133-159 (83.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 102-122 (64.1 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 351-413 (238.7 - 280.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zoroark

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 126-149 (93.3 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 114-135 (71.6 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Druddigon

(Excellent chip) (Possibility to status or force out with Dragon Tail) (It's for Druddigon to survive the 1v1 after SD)

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 112-133 (60.8 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bisharp

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 220-259 (157.1 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 71-86 (44.6 - 54%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO

Mandibuzz
(Similar situation as umbreon; Mandibuzz less likely to be full hp; Foul Play greater odds of killing thanks to Rocky Helmet)

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 132-156 (83 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Durant

Spoiler

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Durant: 199-235 (149.6 - 176.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 78-93 (49 - 58.4%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO


 

I realise that Fera might not be at full HP when it sets up, but the same could easily be said about the pokemons that Fera will face. Ultimetaly, if Fera is lower HP, there will be more counters/checks, but if the pokemons in front of Fera are lower HP, they will be easier to knock out as well.

 

Based on the calcs listed above, I believe there are very few safe switches versus a Fera SD:

  • Crobat Impish + Haze needs to be above 66% to 86% if Fera is above 58%.
  • Mandibuzz RH needs to be above 70% to 83% if Feraligatr is above 16.7%.
  • Rotom-Mow
  • Toxicroak needs to be above 65% to 75% if Fera is above 68%.
  • Roserade only works if kept healthy and based on predictions.

This is not acceptable. If a single Feraligatr set has so few answers, how can we expect people to prepare for multiple sets, determine what set is in front of them and then predicting what move Feraligatr will use? Fera is clearly overpowered for UU and needs to be banned.

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9 hours ago, gbwead said:

Toxicroak needs to be above 65% to 75% if Fera is above 68%.

Toxicroak needs to be above 30ish or whatever +0 Crunch does as it is capable of OHKOing Feral after rocks

Don't really understand the 68%

You do know Toxicroak has Close Combat and is mainly played Adamant Life Orb with that move right? 

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6 minutes ago, TohnR said:

Toxicroak needs to be above 30ish or whatever +0 Crunch does as it is capable of OHKOing Feral after rocks

Don't really understand the 68%

You do know Toxicroak has Close Combat and is mainly played Adamant Life Orb with that move right? 

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 109-130 (68.1 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 153-181 (96.8 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

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20 minutes ago, TohnR said:

Toxicroak needs to be above 30ish or whatever +0 Crunch does as it is capable of OHKOing Feral after rocks

Don't really understand the 68%

You do know Toxicroak has Close Combat and is mainly played Adamant Life Orb with that move right? 

I didn't really look into Close Combat, but it's not a big deal. It just means Feraligatr needs to stay more healthy while Toxicroak is more likely to be low hp since it will be Life Orb without recovery.

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19 hours ago, Azphiel said:

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 109-130 (68.1 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

156 Def very relevant Calc 

 

And to Gb, sure Toxicroak can be cheaped but it does have ways to recover (wish) and it can always revenge kill Feral worst case even with low HP due to immunity to Jet (also denies the possibility for Feral to SD) 

Edited by TohnR
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4 hours ago, TohnR said:

156 Def very relevant Calc 

 

Oh I only used the spread that gb suggested in the previous post... Feel free to think that using defense is irrelevant (that would be very narrow minded in my opinion), but since you hate defense EVs so much you might put these 156 EVs in HP instead?

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 129-152 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

It still lives even after rocks and your previous point was wrong.

 

Furthermore I believe that most of the pokemons you listed previously are unreliable (for example Mandibuzz needs to be healthy + no rocks, Druddigon only weakens Feraligatr but dies in the process... and is scarf Roserade really viable in a tier dominated by Bronzong and Crobat?) and except Poliwrath, they can only answer one (or at best 2) specific Feraligatr set, and so in a very unconvincing way.

Feraligatr's sheer power and versatility are too much for UU to handle.

Edited by Azphiel
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8 hours ago, TohnR said:

156 Def very relevant Calc 

 

And to Gb, sure Toxicroak can be cheaped but it does have ways to recover (wish) and it can always revenge kill Feral worst case even with low HP due to immunity to Jet (also denies the possibility for Feral to SD) 

I hope you understand that:

  1. I did list Toxicroak as one of the answers vs Fera, so why are you trying to convince me of something I already agreed to? (Look below for the conditions for that answer)
  2. Toxicroak can recover through Wish support, sure. Feraligatr can also recover through Wish support.
  3. I said from the start that I was going to analyze only 1 set of Feraligatr; if that irrelevant set can accomplish so much, imagine how broken Feraligatr would be with a relevant set.

 

If Toxicroak switches into a Feraligatr doing SD, here are the relevant calcs:

Spoiler

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 91-109 (57.2 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 109-130 (68.5 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 68-82 (42.7 - 51.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 101-120 (63.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 153-181 (96.8 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

Scenario 1 (Close Combat set)

If Toxicroak runs Close Combat, this means Feraligatr will die if it has less than (68.5 - 81.7%).

If Toxicroak does Close Combat and Feraligatr survives, this means Toxicroak automatically dies to Crunch from Fera.

 

This means that:

  • If Fera is above 81%, Toxicroak loses with Close Combat.
  • If Fera is between 68% and 81%, Toxicroak is at risk of losing with Close Combat.
  • If Fera is below 68%, Toxicroak wins. (Toxicroak needs more than 10% HP to survive Life Orb Recoil, otherwise it's a tie)
  • If Fera is above 68%, Toxicroak needs to be above 96% in order to survive the max roll from +2 Crunch and the two turns of Life Orb Recoil.

On the Toxicroak CC set vs Fera when Toxicroak switches into a SD, we can conclude that (without considering potential crits):

  • If Toxicroak is above 96%, Toxicroak will always win.
  • If Fera is below 68%, it will always lose.

If Toxicroak is below 96% and Fera is above 68%, Toxicroak can win or lose, Fera can win or lose and sometimes both can lose.

 

Scenario 2 (Drain Punch set)

If Fera is too healthy and can't be taken down with 1 hit, that means Toxicroak will have to hit Fera twice.

Considering Fera inflicts from 64% to 76% with Crunch +2, Toxicroak needs to be healthy as well in order to survive.

 

Turn 1

  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Feraligatr: 68-82 (42.7 - 51.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO 
    (21.5 - 25.9% recovered minus 10% Life Orb recoil = 11.5 to 15.9% recovered)
  • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 101-120 (63.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Turn 2

  • Drain Punch or Thunder Punch depending on how much HP Feraligatr has left
    (Maximum Recovered: 11.5 to 15.9%)
    (Minimum Recovered: -10%)
  • Feraligatr faints

This means that:

  • If Feraligatr is below 57.2%, Toxicroak automatically wins with Thunder Punch. (Toxicroak needs more than 10% HP to survive Life Orb Recoil, otherwise it's a tie)
  • If Feraligatr is between 57.2% and 68.5%, Toxicroak might not OHKO with Thunder Punch.
  • If Feraligatr is above 68%, Toxicroak in order to win will have to:
    • tank a +2 Crunch (63.9 - 75.9%)
    • take two turns of Life Orb Recoil (20%)
    • get back between 21.5% to 51.8% HP thanks to Drain Punch

Best case scenario (Fera is at full HP, max roll on first Drain Punch and low roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 48.5% HP to not lose.

Best case scenario (Fera is at full HP, max roll on first Drain Punch and low roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 58.5% HP to win.
Worst case scenario (Fera is at 58%, low roll on Drain Punch and high roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 73.9% HP to not lose.

Worst case scenario (Fera is at 58%, low roll on Drain Punch and high roll on +2 Crunch): Toxicroak needs to be above 83.9% HP to win.

 

On the Toxicroak Drain Punch set vs Fera when Toxicroak switches into a SD, we can conclude that (without considering potential crits):

  • If Toxicroak is above 83.9%, it will always win with Drain Punch + Thunder Punch.
  • If Feraligatr is below 57.2%, it will always lose.

If Toxicroak is below 83.9% and Fera is above 57.2%, Toxicroak can win or lose, Fera can win or lose and sometimes both can lose.

Edited by gbwead
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12 hours ago, Azphiel said:

Furthermore I believe that most of the pokemons you listed previously are unreliable

They are checks as I mentionned. I've never stated anywhere it was easy to handle Feraligatr unless you run defensive Poli (which is a fairly viable mon in UU and was already used before Feraligatr was even a thing, it's just not highly splashable in every non stall team, that I definitely agree)
I'm just providing more relevant mons to add to the initial list that Poseidon made that's all I was doing tbh
 

12 hours ago, Azphiel said:

is scarf Roserade really viable

I think it's an used item for Roserade in the usages but I agree that it's not the best RK there is. That wasn't what I was trying to prove anyways 😉

And about the 156 def thing, my issue wasn't with the accuracy of your calculations, I know you & gb do those very well, I was just questionning the relevancy of such a high amount of EVs invested in Bulk while using max Attack (also the fact I missed it was the EVs Gb presented so it felt like an "out of nowhere")
After thinking about it a bit more I guess it could be a thing, it's just never/rarely used that slow as far as I've seen but it ain't bad.

Then I gotta agree with Gb's conclusions about this "on paper" set that he presented, my bad !

Edited by TohnR
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