[Discussion] Evasion Clause

[DoubleJ]

Evasion Clause: Moves which raise Evasion will have no effect. BrightPowder and Lax Incense cannot be used.

 

Why should a move be banned, when an ability (or multiple abilities) exist which do the very same thing? Should we consider unbanning Lax Incense and BrightPowder, and nerfing Minimize and other similar moves to cap at one evasion boost? Or, does it make more sense to simply ban all evasion, such as Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, to make for a much more competitive and enjoyable game?

 

What would this involve?

• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Sand Veil (ability)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Snow Cloak (ability)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Moody (ability, future)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Accupressure (move)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Contrary (ability)

 

How would this benefit the game? For one, evasion is not a guarantee and is an RNG-reliant mechanic. With that in mind, it is not competitive and using this can create an unfair advantage. Some abilities (Snow Cloak on Froslass) are even more dangerous because they have no negative implication on the user, unlike an item or move which takes away the opportunity to use better items or other moves.

 

What are the negatives of expanding evasion clause? This would be against "vanilla" gaming mechanics, which means we are altering the game and it is becoming less "canon."

 

 

What are you thoughts? Please discuss.

Edited October 23, 2022 by DoubleJ

[Knightee]

sand veil banned = good 

[TohnR]

14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

• Disable the evasion lowering effect of Defog (move)

 

You can't do that, otherwise Defog can no longer be punished through Defiant and that would be extremely unfair

[OrangeManiac]

 

26 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

 

• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Sand Veil (ability)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Snow Cloak (ability)

What's kind of important in this discussion are the Pokemon that have the ability. While Pokemon like Sand Veil Garchomp and Gliscor have potential to be very annoying, most Pokemon with these abilities are quite awful and aren't saved even with Evasion boosting ability. Only reason to ban everything at once is to avoid complex bans I guess (by flat banning/nullifying these abilities), which I think is an okay idea because the game doesn't really improve either by having these Evasion boosting abilities. So the main point of this discussion is if Sand Veil Garchomp and Gliscor are cancerous. (To be honest, I don't think so. Using these abilities is often just giving away far more reliable ability for them)

 

So yeah, they are annoying but are they really overpowering and do they even have a positive opportunity cost by using them? Not really.

 

26 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Moody (ability, future)

You should never release Moody to begin with. Absolutely uncompetitive ability, even in its nerfed form.

 

26 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

• Disable the evasion lowering effect of Defog (move)

This makes no other sense to me besides preventing Serperior to gain Evasion boosts, which could be fixed by just preventing Contrary to give Evasion boosts (like, idk program that all +1-6 evasion to have same effect as 0). But why would you need to prevent lowering opposing evasion, seems like an unnecessary nerf when you could legitimately use that as a strategy to improve your chance of hitting low accuracy moves.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by OrangeManiac

[Sargeste]

Yeah, disable the Evasion boost on Contrary rather than eliminating the Evasiveness drop with Defog.

[Munya]

I think disabling the boost was the idea but it got worded in an improper way, perhaps my fault for not catching it before it being posted.

[TohnR]

3 minutes ago, Munya said:

I think disabling the boost was the idea but it got worded in an improper way, perhaps my fault for not catching it before it being posted.

Then this is a great idea 🙂 

[RysPicz]

 

37 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

What would this involve?

• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Sand Veil (ability)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Snow Cloak (ability)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Moody (ability, future)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Accupressure (move)
• Disable the evasion lowering effect of Defog (move)

There isn't really much to add or discuss from my side, I just had a concern about Defiant but it was already cleared. I'm literally just making a post saying I fully support that approach and decision

 

38 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

What are you thoughts? Please discuss.

The sooner the better

[DoubleJ]

Edited for Contrary

[suigin]

Leave Defog interactions alone. Ban everything else. We need more ways to punish mindless Defog spam and this is one, however small, it's all in the agency of both players involved in the match and not caused due to teambuilding.

I feel like this probably comes without saying but Moody should not be implemented for players even if it no longer boosts evasion. I know this seems random but I can see where the ball is headed once you listed it among the other things.

[caioxlive13]

44 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Evasion Clause: Moves which raise Evasion will have no effect. BrightPowder and Lax Incense cannot be used.

 

Why should a move be banned, when an ability (or multiple abilities) exist which do the very same thing? Should we consider unbanning Lax Incense and BrightPowder, and nerfing Minimize and other similar moves to cap at one evasion boost? Or, does it make more sense to simply ban all evasion, such as Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, to make for a much more competitive and enjoyable game?

 

What would this involve?

• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Sand Veil (ability)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Snow Cloak (ability)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Moody (ability, future)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Accupressure (move)
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Contrary (ability)

 

How would this benefit the game? For one, evasion is not a guarantee and is an RNG-reliant mechanic. With that in mind, it is not competitive and using this can create an unfair advantage. Some abilities (Snow Cloak on Froslass) are even more dangerous because they have no negative implication on the user, unlike an item or move which takes away the opportunity to use better items or other moves.

 

What are the negatives of expanding evasion clause? This would be against "vanilla" gaming mechanics, which means we are altering the game and it is becoming less "canon."

 

 

What are you thoughts? Please discuss.

My opinion about those topics: 

• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Sand Veil (ability) - Yes
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Snow Cloak (ability) - Yes
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Moody (ability, future) - Yes
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Accupressure (move) - Yes
• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Contrary (ability) - No

I don't consider evasion of Contrary something anticompetitive on singles due to same reason that suigin mentioned:

5 minutes ago, suigin said:

Leave Defog interactions alone. Ban everything else. We need more ways to punish mindless Defog spam and this is one, however small, it's all in the agency of both players involved in the match and not caused due to teambuilding.

I feel like this probably comes without saying but Moody should not be implemented for players even if it no longer boosts evasion. I know this seems random but I can see where the ball is headed once you listed it among the other things.

But in doubles we have the problem of people spam defog against their own serperior. But we don't need to disable the interaction, we can simply make defog unable to defog allies, only enemies. After all, for why reason a people will defog against their own mon if aren't for this strat?

 

[LifeStyleNORE]

47 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

• Disable the evasion boosting effect of Moody (ability, future) 

This is already a thing in gen8. 

 

Also I support disabling the effect of evasion-boosting abilities. 

[PatoSempai]

Opino lo mismo

 

 

[AwaXGoku]

Real question here , why we dont just ban sand vail and snow cloak from pvp ? We dont have Moody yet (and i hope we never get moody ), accupressure isnt a big deal imo ( and idk if im unlucky or not but when i played accupressure my evasion boost came when all the other were at +6) and disable the boost on contrary isnt the key to make serp more healthy 
so this is a serious question

[PatoSempai]

Verdad la acupresión no es un problema lo mismo me pasó :v

 

El aumento de evasión para mi propio si me afecta ya q hab q suban la evasion no sé si es por mi mala suerte pero perdí varios pvp por esas tipos de habilidades opino lo mismo 

[Munya]

7 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

Real question here , why we dont just ban sand vail and snow cloak from pvp ? We dont have Moody yet (and i hope we never get moody ), accupressure isnt a big deal imo ( and idk if im unlucky or not but when i played accupressure my evasion boost came when all the other were at +6) and disable the boost on contrary isnt the key to make serp more healthy 
so this is a serious question

Well for one you'd have to make the argument that any of those mons are broken, and the general consensus when asking that question has always been, they aren't.

 

 

4 minutes ago, PatoSempai said:

Verdad la acupresión no es un problema lo mismo me pasó :v

 

El aumento de evasión para mi propio si me afecta ya q hab q suban la evasion no sé si es por mi mala suerte pero perdí varios pvp por esas tipos de habilidades opino lo mismo 

Please provide an English translation with posts.

[Bertolfoso]

Just now, Munya said:

Well for one you'd have to make the argument that any of those mons are broken, and the general consensus when asking that question has always been, they aren't.

It's not the mons that are broken, it's the ability. And I've seen a lot of people agree with this statement, so I don't know how you can so confidently say that it isn't.

 

Anyways leave the Contrary + Defog interaction untouched, everything else is fine.

[PatoSempai]

el aumento de evasion me ha afectado ya que hay movs que aumentan la evasion no se si es por mi mala suerte pero perdi varios pvp por that and I agree to disable evasion 

Edited October 23, 2022 by PatoSempai
Xd

[razimove]

since most already said what I would say, disabling would be fine for me, I'd also put a limit to how much evasion boosts can happen to serp with defog, due to it potentially being problematic in doubles? Although it's also not that easy to pull off I guess. I also don't think serp needs it to punish defog granted that most defoggers on the meta won't really enjoy a boosted serp, nor enjoy the glare rng either, but I'd be fine with it not nerfed vs defog

[HumongousNoodle]

Don't forget Tangled Feet.

I'm not saying this ability is good or whatever, but Axe all evasion hax abilities equally.

[suigin]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

But in doubles we have the problem of people spam defog against their own serperior. But we don't need to disable the interaction, we can simply make defog unable to defog allies, only enemies. After all, for why reason a people will defog against their own mon if aren't for this strat?

Can you show me several examples of this being done in tours and winning? It sounds incredibly unviable.

Can anyone more keen with doubles confirm if this is the case?

[caioxlive13]

 

17 minutes ago, suigin said:

Can you show me several examples of this being done in tours and winning? It sounds incredibly unviable.

Can anyone more keen with doubles confirm if this is the case?

Check this comment of Gbwead on October-Movement Discussion thread:
 

On 9/27/2022 at 12:10 PM, gbwead said:

On that note, I noticed dubs players starting to run defog more often to give their own serp an evasion boost. I believe removing the evasion boost would be a good step forward.

 

[suigin]

16 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

 

Check this comment of Gbwead on October-Movement Discussion thread:
 

 

Ok Can you show me several examples of this being done in tours and winning? It sounds incredibly unviable.

[JeanMarc]

Defog to raise evasion in doubles isn't an issue at all, even if people use it (which they really don't) a shaky strat that can be shut down by clicking Follow Me is really not an issue worth discussing. I would get it if counterplay would be extremely niche, but when such a fundamental aspect of doubles like redirection completely shuts it down, having issues against it is really a skill issue.

[Blu3Breath]

Evasion is always uncompetitive, just ban it outright. For those saying how will you punish defog without this interaction? Well the player using defog in this situation is already being punished for having to use a turn that you could capitalise on, boosting evasion is just a rng fish that promotes sub-optimal play.