Jump to content

[Discussion] Evasion Clause


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Blu3Breath said:

Evasion is always uncompetitive, just ban it outright. For those saying how will you punish defog without this interaction? Well the player using defog in this situation is already being punished for having to use a turn that you could capitalise on, boosting evasion is just a rng fish that promotes sub-optimal play. 

You gain a turn that will only give to you a free turn to switch and nothing else. Also, Rotom cannot be OHKO'ed by 90% of OU and if your mon are slower than him or aren't capable of OHKO it after enter on field, he will use volt switch and regain their advantage.

 

Also, you will have your field clean, so the mon that will enter will enter without take damage or get poisoned by toxic spikes, if possible.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

You gain a turn that will only give to you a free turn to switch and nothing else.

What? This is just wrong you can attack with your current mon or use a crippling status move e.g. taunt or toxic. 

 

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

Also, Rotom cannot be OHKO'ed by 90% of OU and if your mon are slower than him or aren't capable of OHKO it after enter on field, he will use volt switch and regain their advantage.

Well if you knew he would defog the turn before you can switch into a mon with a good matchup, position yourself properly to take advantage. I don't see why you added some random statistic to Rotom being OHKO'd that is not a measurement to what a good mon is, nor is it relevant to the discussion of defog boosting evasion being unfair. 

 

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

Also, you will have your field clean, so the mon that will enter will enter without take damage or get poisoned by toxic spikes, if possible.

Yeah but they will get hit by whatever you had out unless volt switch killed your mon. Most good players can predict the game state in a few turns, surely you can find a way to punish the rotom coming in then defogging then volt switching.

 

This discussion is not based on rotom in ou, it is about if evasion should be allowed in competitive play. Why should evasion steal wins from another player?

Link to comment

Dubs
First off, I could not care less about Dubs. I believe I played a tournament once where I encountered a Togekiss Defog + Serperior team. I was disgusted and mentionned it, that's it.

 

Sand Veil & Snow Cloak

As for Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, these abilities are plain bad and they are usually played only when there are no better options.

 

Garchomp would be an S tier threat even if it had illuminate as an ability. The only reaon why Sand Veil is getting noticed is because Garchomp has very high usage. There is hardly any reason to run Sand Veil anymore unless you are poor and can't afford Rough Skin.

 

Gliscor/Gligar should always run Poison Heal/Immunity or Hyper Cutter over Sand Veil.

Sandshrew/Sandslash is garbage, but given the choice it would choose to run Sand Rush over Sand Veil.

Diglett/Dugtrio would always run AT over Sand Veil.

Geodude/Graveler/Golem would always run Sturdy or Rock Head over Sand Veil.

Phanpy might run Sand Veil over Pickup because both abilities are trash.

Donphan would always run Sturdy over Sand Veil.

Larvitar would run Guts over Sand Veil.

Cacnea/Cacturn could maybe run Sand Veil over Water Absorb, and if they do so it's to avoid sand dmg, the evasion is a minor bonus.

Stunfisk would always run Static over Sand Veil.

 

Swinub/Piloswine/Mamoswine would never run Snow Cloak over Thick Fat or Oblivious.

Glaceon would always run Ice Body over Snow Cloak.

Froslass would definetly play Cursed Body over Snow Cloak.

Vanillite/Vanillish would run Ice Body or Weak Armor over Snow Cloak. 

Cubchoo and Beartic would run Slush Rush over Snow Cloak.

 

There is litteraly no reason to play these trash abilities unless you have no other choice. Should we remove/ban/disable these trash abilities just because we can? They are after all quite uncompetitive. Sure devs can choose to remove these abilities if they want. They are irrelevant in PvP. If devs decide to remove these abilities, it would be a game design decision. They could also disable freeze as a status if they wanted. There are so many uncompetitive aspects to pokemon battling and the only aspects that require the intervention of TC are the ones that are viable enough to ruin a significant portion of games. There is nothing significant about Sand Veil. If I lose because of Sand Veil, shit happens. It's frustrating because Sand Veil is trash and it's annoying to lose to trash, but that's not different from losing to a freeze ice beam.

 

Oh and for the love of god, please don't give me bullshit arguments like "you can play around freeze with scald, fire moves, heal bell and ice pokemon, but you can't play around sand veil evasion" or worse "freeze ice beam is 10%, sand veil is 20%, therefore it is more uncompetitive". Sand Veil is only active very very few turns, there are as many ways if not more to stall out a few sand turns than there are of dealing with a freeze. A constant 10% chance to freeze is way more game breaking than 20% only when sand is active.

 

My point is Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are not a tiering issue. If they need to be discussed, they should be discussed in the general discussion, not the competitive alley.

 

I personally do not want unecessary nerfs or complex bans whenever possible. It makes the game ugly when it's not necessary. On top of that, some mons might not gain a new ability which mean they will be stuck with either Sand Veil or Snow Cloak and I don't want these mons banned either.

 

Moody

Ban Moody. Please no complex nerf that will result in the creation of a new ability.

 

Accupressure

The move is trash. I tested it a lot. It's so bad. If you are facing someone playing Accupressure, you should thank them for giving you higher odds of winning. If they end up haxing you, that's shitty, but tbh there is a very high chance they needed hax to win in the first place because they were playing garbage.

 

Contrary

Here, I can understand the issue and I'm okay with TC asking for a nerf, but I don't feel strongly about this. Contrary Serperior indirectly breaks evasion clause through Defog and there is a very viable way to take advantage of the evasion boost. And I agree disagree with everyone that said it's good to have a way to punish Defog through Evasion.

 

Kind of off-topic and probably very weird idea

In the event Contrary users no longer receive an Evasion Boost from Defog, would it be okay if they received an Accuracy boost instead. I know for sure Serperior would appreciate not missing Leaf Storm or Leech Seed anymore. The people crying about not receiving any boost from switching on evasion would at least would still get something that benefits them and removes a layer of RNG from the game. Tbh, I don't like complex nerfing stuff, so I don't feel super good about this, but I thought I should still suggest it just in case it helps.


Edit: I mistyped. I meant to say: I disagree with everyone that said it's good to have a way to punish Defog through Evasion. You don't need Evasion to punish Defog.

Edited by gbwead
Link to comment
16 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Dubs
First off, I could not care less about Dubs. I believe I played a tournament once where I encountered a Togekiss Defog + Serperior team. I was disgusted and mentionned it, that's it.

 

Sand Veil & Snow Cloak

As for Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, these abilities are plain bad and they are usually played only when there are no better options.

 

Garchomp would be an S tier threat even if it had illuminate as an ability. The only reaon why Sand Veil is getting noticed is because Garchomp has very high usage. There is hardly any reason to run Sand Veil anymore unless you are poor and can't afford Rough Skin.

 

Gliscor/Gligar should always run Poison Heal/Immunity or Hyper Cutter over Sand Veil.

Sandshrew/Sandslash is garbage, but given the choice it would choose to run Sand Rush over Sand Veil.

Diglett/Dugtrio would always run AT over Sand Veil.

Geodude/Graveler/Golem would always run Sturdy or Rock Head over Sand Veil.

Phanpy might run Sand Veil over Pickup because both abilities are trash.

Donphan would always run Sturdy over Sand Veil.

Larvitar would run Guts over Sand Veil.

Cacnea/Cacturn could maybe run Sand Veil over Water Absorb, and if they do so it's to avoid sand dmg, the evasion is a minor bonus.

Stunfisk would always run Static over Sand Veil.

 

Swinub/Piloswine/Mamoswine would never run Snow Cloak over Thick Fat or Oblivious.

Glaceon would always run Ice Body over Snow Cloak.

Froslass would definetly play Cursed Body over Snow Cloak.

Vanillite/Vanillish would run Ice Body or Weak Armor over Snow Cloak. 

Cubchoo and Beartic would run Slush Rush over Snow Cloak.

 

There is litteraly no reason to play these trash abilities unless you have no other choice. Should we remove/ban/disable these trash abilities just because we can? They are after all quite uncompetitive. Sure devs can choose to remove these abilities if they want. They are irrelevant in PvP. If devs decide to remove these abilities, it would be a game design decision. They could also disable freeze as a status if they wanted. There are so many uncompetitive aspects to pokemon battling and the only aspects that require the intervention of TC are the ones that are viable enough to ruin a significant portion of games. There is nothing significant about Sand Veil. If I lose because of Sand Veil, shit happens. It's frustrating because Sand Veil is trash and it's annoying to lose to trash, but that's not different from losing to a freeze ice beam.

 

Oh and for the love of god, please don't give me bullshit arguments like "you can play around freeze with scald, fire moves, heal bell and ice pokemon, but you can't play around sand veil evasion" or worse "freeze ice beam is 10%, sand veil is 20%, therefore it is more uncompetitive". Sand Veil is only active very very few turns, there are as many ways if not more to stall out a few sand turns than there are of dealing with a freeze. A constant 10% chance to freeze is way more game breaking than 20% only when sand is active.

 

My point is Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are not a tiering issue. If they need to be discussed, they should be discussed in the general discussion, not the competitive alley.

 

I personally do not want unecessary nerfs or complex bans whenever possible. It makes the game ugly when it's not necessary. On top of that, some mons might not gain a new ability which mean they will be stuck with either Sand Veil or Snow Cloak and I don't want these mons banned either.

 

Moody

Ban Moody. Please no complex nerf that will result in the creation of a new ability.

 

Accupressure

The move is trash. I tested it a lot. It's so bad. If you are facing someone playing Accupressure, you should thank them for giving you higher odds of winning. If they end up haxing you, that's shitty, but tbh there is a very high chance they needed hax to win in the first place because they were playing garbage.

 

Contrary

Here, I can understand the issue and I'm okay with TC asking for a nerf, but I don't feel strongly about this. Contrary Serperior indirectly breaks evasion clause through Defog and there is a very viable way to take advantage of the evasion boost. And I agree with everyone that said it's good to have a way to punish Defog through Evasion.

 

Kind of off-topic and probably very weird idea

In the event Contrary users no longer receive an Evasion Boost from Defog, would it be okay if they received an Accuracy boost instead. I know for sure Serperior would appreciate not missing Leaf Storm or Leech Seed anymore. The people crying about not receiving any boost from switching on evasion would at least would still get something that benefits them and removes a layer of RNG from the game. Tbh, I don't like complex nerfing stuff, so I don't feel super good about this, but I thought I should still suggest it just in case it helps.

 

I agree on moody. Don't need to nerf it. We see on Gen 8, moody gets changed by game freak, smogon tested it and banned, and we use the same moody abusers(Smeargle/glalie) . Why waste time? Ban it.

Link to comment

Really appreciate the discussion here and that it even looks somewhat chill for the most part. 

 

We agree, removing something all willy nilly is a negative but there has been so much indirect discussion around this already we felt it imperative to open a true thread and answer this question once and for all, and that question being should evasion boosting abilities and moves be banned. 

 

Looking forward to further chat on this. 

Link to comment
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.