December 2022- Movement Discussion Thread

[LifeStyleNORE]

On 11/26/2022 at 2:26 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Well, nobody commented about this but here we go. 

On this thread i listed the possible moveset changes, and i want to bring attention to one change: 
Sableye
- Added Giga Drain
- Added Reflect
- Added Light Screen

Giga drain isn't too big, but i wish to talk about Dual Screens. Now sableye can set screens with Priority. Any chance to it get quickbanned from NU after the Movepool Update?
Electrode gets quickbanned on NU because of setting screens, and with a great speed, pass the entire tier. Now, the situation is worse. 
Sableye's cons is only doesn't have a pivot move/self-ko move to grant a safe switch to a partner, unlike electrode that have Volt Switch and Explosion. But, sableye can set with priority, so speed doesn't matter. The priority apply to taunt, preventing defog users to clean screens, or opponent to set Entry Hazards while setuping. Their Ghost-type grants immunity to all prioritys except Bullet Punch, and Immunity to Brick Break , that could clean the Screens. On top of that, their Dark-type grants 100% Immunity from Whimsicott's Prankster-boosted Taunt, a immunity that Electrode doesn't have.

Defog Skuntank

[SweeTforU]

On 11/26/2022 at 4:08 PM, RysPicz said:

Do it, give Sweet an early xmas gift and drop Salamence, he'll be delighted

❤️

[gbwead]

Is Staraptor getting Quick Banned or not?

[Munya]

33 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Is Staraptor getting Quick Banned or not?

I've implored people to make a thread, nobody has yet.

[caioxlive13]

I just didn't understand the moves in OU. Because an HA that is extremely impactful(Dragonite Multiscale) was released in the middle of the month. Wouldn't that be enough to cancel the moves between OU and UU? Just to reminder, Dragonite Multiscale can't get one shot by everything at +0, that are not named Conkeldurr Ice Punch(Maybe Kingdra Specs + Draco Meteor too? need to calc), assuming normal battle conditions.

Edited November 28, 2022 by caioxlive13

[hannahtaylor]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

I just didn't understand the moves in OU. Because an HA that is extremely impactful(Dragonite Multiscale) was released in the middle of the month. Wouldn't that be enough to cancel the moves between OU and UU? Just to reminder, Dragonite Multiscale can't get one shot by everything at +0, that are not named Conkeldurr Ice Punch(Maybe Kingdra Specs + Draco Meteor too? need to calc), assuming normal battle conditions.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 157-186 (94.5 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 156-184 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

[caioxlive13]

6 minutes ago, hannahtaylor said:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 157-186 (94.5 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 156-184 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

still over 50% chance to OHKO. That's expressive enough. Also, part of players don't use x31 on defenses and HP, breed x25 or even x20 due to economic reasons, making the rolls for a KO even bigger.

Edited November 28, 2022 by caioxlive13

[NiceRNGbro]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

Also, part of players don't use x31 on defenses and HP, breed x25 or even x20 due to economic reasons, making the rolls for a KO even bigger.

this is not a relevant argument, Caio.

[Imperial]

When is the tiering usually locked? There's been some slight changes since the announcement -

 

[Munya]

At the time of the post

[caioxlive13]

I don't even know why there is a movement usage-based going on OU, since an HA that is not weak, on the contrary, is very strong, was released in the middle of the month. This scrumble the usage a bit. Nite HA is very strong, Most part of OU that could KO it directly before, can no longer do it, and are on risk of getting RK'ed by Dragon Claw(that happens with Chomps that don't switch out), Fire Punch, or E-Speed.

Only picking matchups against Two good dragons on OU to get example. Calc with Kingdra is above, just scroll the page up:

vs Regular Chomps
T1 - 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 72-85 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
(Considering 25 HP/Def scenario: 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 75-88 (46 - 53.9%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO)
Dragonite does Dragon Dance.
T2 - +1 252 Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 218-260 (119.1 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, Dual Chop will not solve it. Because it will be only around 76% damage.

vs Hydreigons:
x31 HP/Def - 252 SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 70-84 (42.1 - 50.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
(x25 HP/Def - 252 SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 70-84 (42.9 - 51.5%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO)
If are a Nasty Plot set, unless you have a turn to setup, game over.

best matchups are if you had a Choice Scarf Hydreigon, because if opponent setup, instead of attack, on your second turn's attack:
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 152-182 (93.2 - 111.6%) -- KO because he will are on 50% probablly due to first turn attack.
Also: 
+1 252 Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 77-91 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
E-Speed isn't enough.
You will only lose vs Dragonite, with Choice Scarf Hydrei, if your opponent decide to attack instead of setup.
252 Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 152-182 (91 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (If you survive for some reason you'll take E-Speed on the following turn.)
But: 252 Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haban Berry Hydreigon: 76-91 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO
Haban Berry can help Hydreigon to live a Dragon Claw and fire the second DPulse, getting the kill.

Edited November 30, 2022 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

@caioxlive13What's your point? Are you trying to imply that given more time Staraptor, Salamence and Ludicolo would not fall by usage? Even though I believe Salamence is likely to yoyo back to OU - unless it gets banned first - I'm sorry to inform you that Salamence usage has been decreasing more and more.

 

If you are trying to say that there should be no movements because there was a big change in OU, that's a very bad argument since all the data collected ever since Dnite gained Multiscale seems to indicate that Salamence is played less and less in OU.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

@caioxlive13What's your point? Are you trying to imply that given more time Staraptor, Salamence and Ludicolo would not fall by usage? Even though I believe Salamence is likely to yoyo back to OU - unless it gets banned first - I'm sorry to inform you that Salamence usage has been decreasing more and more.

 

If you are trying to say that there should be no movements because there was a big change in OU, that's a very bad argument since all the data collected ever since Dnite gained Multiscale seems to indicate that Salamence is played less and less in OU.

Salamence fall to UU is a question of time, but Nite Multiscale speed up the process. 
Also, ludicolo is fine to fall, Staraptor not. I'm remember of someone, i don't remember if was you or other people, that asked for Staraptor on OU just because it would be OP to UU.

Edit: October-2022 movement thread, page 4. Check with your own eyes.


Well, i'm finding more comments about Staraptor but yea, this is the base for majority of people - Staraptor isn't viable enough to OU, maybe found their niche on tier(very hard to happen since the top flying-type of OU is Crobat and Togekiss(Also nite but Flying on him is just a Ground immunity, don't have nothing to abuse from it.)), but their movement is because people think that it will get broken on UU, being a boring mon to face but not bannable (Like chansey XD), or just overpowered and bannable, one of both would happen.

My Opinion is simple: Get Staraptor and Salamence banned, or marked on UU as a suspect.

Edited November 30, 2022 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

I'm truly lost for words. There is just no logic to follow.
 

1. You say you don't understand why there are usage movements following the release of a new hidden ability on dnite.
2. You admit that it was only a question of time before Salamence dropped to UU by usage and the hidden ability on dnite only made it happen faster. (when the process is speeded up, that's a good thing btw)
3. You quote me for idk what reason as if you were trying to show some contradiction. I never said Staraptor should be allowed to fall so I don't see your point.
4. Your opinion (banning Staraptor and Salamence) is completly incoherent with #1 where you said there shouldn't be any movements at all. Staraptor and Salamence can't be banned if there is no movements to begin with.

[Munya]

A staraptor thread is on the way, but we may need a little extra time to discuss it, it may not be banned immediately after the tier swaps, but we are open to banning it during the month and it very likely could happen, we've just had some delays and things come up.

[Umbramol]

Nidoking at the moment is also below cut off. Are we still counting? Since it's 30th of the month, is it gonna drop? Or the sample was taken the day you made that post?

[Quinn010]

7 hours ago, Munya said:

At the time of the post

 

21 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

Nidoking at the moment is also below cut off. Are we still counting? Since it's 30th of the month, is it gonna drop? Or the sample was taken the day you made that post?

 

[Umbramol]

37 minutes ago, Quinn010 said:

 

 

Your quote didn't guide me anywhere but yea, I scrolled up and found it.

[caioxlive13]

19 hours ago, gbwead said:

I'm truly lost for words. There is just no logic to follow.
 

1. You say you don't understand why there are usage movements following the release of a new hidden ability on dnite.
2. You admit that it was only a question of time before Salamence dropped to UU by usage and the hidden ability on dnite only made it happen faster. (when the process is speeded up, that's a good thing btw)
3. You quote me for idk what reason as if you were trying to show some contradiction. I never said Staraptor should be allowed to fall so I don't see your point.
4. Your opinion (banning Staraptor and Salamence) is completly incoherent with #1 where you said there shouldn't be any movements at all. Staraptor and Salamence can't be banned if there is no movements to begin with.

1. Yes, because HA on Dnite is a impactant HA, not a trash HA like 4-5 HA Trees that get released. So, it changed metagaming with their presence.
2. is true, but nobody expected that it would happen. That's the point of #4. Ban Salamence would happen, a lot of people is agreeing that they will be very OP on UU. Tier Council will now need to discuss this, and both mons will be allowed and broke UU in the days that they remain allowed. Cancel movements for december is just to delay the fall and give time to TC decide. On january, when both would probally fall again, tier council will already hit the hammer about situation of both.
3. Explaining why cancel OU movements will not be bad at all. Ludicolo would fall to NU and after for Untiered, because he can't do nothing without their rain, while Staraptor will probablly take a Hard Banlist. This month, OU ---> UU movements will not do a great addition to the tier. Also, cancelling the movements will take off the attention for Salamence and Staraptor, and focus on Crawdaunt's Suspect Test to end it as soon as possible.

Edited November 30, 2022 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

I'm still waiting for TC to justify why Dugtrio is banworthy in UU, but not banworthy in OU. Dugtrio is not OU by usage, it is BL. You need to explain why it is banned.

[TohnR]

@gbweadThere was a discussion thread for Dugtrio's ban from UU, you can refer to that to know why it was banned. There was another one for its ban from NU ...
At least as far as I know there was, and it took a whole year to conclude to a ban, so I'm sure there's plenty of material there for you to read.
If you want it to be banned from all tiers you aren't taking the issue from the right angle, if you are just doing that for no purpose other than tiering consistency then you should look around you and realize this is Pokémmo. Yes a mon doesn't have to be proven banworthy in OU for it to be banned in another tier. 
We have proven it banworthy in NU & UU and from that it was banned, it's all that matters

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, TohnR said:

@gbweadThere was a discussion thread for Dugtrio's ban from UU, you can refer to that to know why it was banned. There was another one for its ban from NU ...
At least as far as I know there was, and it took a whole year to conclude to a ban, so I'm sure there's plenty of material there for you to read.
If you want it to be banned from all tiers you aren't taking the issue from the right angle, if you are just doing that for no purpose other than tiering consistency then you should look around you and realize this is Pokémmo. Yes a mon doesn't have to be proven banworthy in OU for it to be banned in another tier. 
We have proven it banworthy in NU & UU and from that it was banned, it's all that matters

I read all of it. The only thing in that thread is PZ being broken and Dugtrio trapping Empoleon. These things no longer apply to UU. 

[AwaXGoku]

I think we have a bad approach to tiering with all the new stuff we've had recently. We had 60 new families of HA which is almost equivalent to a new generation of pokemon if we compare with the official games. In official games, when a new generation comes out the whole tier system is reset to 0.

Here we can see that the tiers are unstable and they are hugely subject to more or less controversial changes from the community.
Why don't we have the idea of starting from 0 and rebuilding entierly the tiers? Whith that we will create a better environnement for lowest tier. The usage are pretty irrellevant actually for UU and NU since the playerbase is really low and in OU some people are still playing team that are outdated because there are plenty of people that just dont care about breeding multiple/new team and just spam "popular" mon because they love it and it makes pokemon such as Jolteon locked in OU forever.

It could be a mess for some month but at the end i think we can benefit from it 
(pls caioxlive dont quote me)

[DoubleJ]

We proposed a reset but it's too great an undertaking, especially with more HA's on the way (assumptively). Working with the system we currently have, I believe we've done a decent job with the exclusion of having some broken stuff for several weeks waiting for possible answers to drop (Contrary for Infiltrator and Assault Gear as an example). It will be interesting to see how the tiers settle over the next few months. Additionally, community members do have a good point on the negative "yo-yo" effect although personally I appreciate the changes because it births creativity rather than optimizing a stale meta. It's why we gravitate to new gens rather than dwell on things like DPP for ages (*glances at PSL15).  The problem comes when common defensive cores are broken up and offensive powerhouses can roam free for a bit. I like the idea of changing cut-offs for lower tiers to prevent things from shooting back up the next month.

[caioxlive13]

5 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

We proposed a reset but it's too great an undertaking, especially with more HA's on the way (assumptively). Working with the system we currently have, I believe we've done a decent job with the exclusion of having some broken stuff for several weeks waiting for possible answers to drop (Contrary for Infiltrator and Assault Gear as an example). It will be interesting to see how the tiers settle over the next few months. Additionally, community members do have a good point on the negative "yo-yo" effect although personally I appreciate the changes because it births creativity rather than optimizing a stale meta. It's why we gravitate to new gens rather than dwell on things like DPP for ages (*glances at PSL15).  The problem comes when common defensive cores are broken up and offensive powerhouses can roam free for a bit. I like the idea of changing cut-offs for lower tiers to prevent things from shooting back up the next month.

Maybe we don't even need to change cut-offs. I'm offering something to reformulate usage system. On first months the chaos would be unavoidable due to several things falling by usage, but after some time we will found the stability and don't have things like OU Cut-off Salamence or UU Cut-off Roserade unless something like Moxie Gyarados or Mold Breaker Excadrill gets released and broke the tier that it is.

Here is the idea:

• 450 or lower Elo matches will not have their usage counted at all.
• 450 - 550 Elo matches will have their usage counted normally.
• 550 - 650 Elo matches will have their usage counted with height 2.
• 650+ Elo matches will have their usage counted with height 3.

Cutoffs:

• Hard Cutoff - Rise: 4,86% Usage - Rise no mattering what.
• Soft Cutoff - Rise: 4,36%-4,86% - Rise with winrate 52%+, otherwise it will not rise.
• Soft Cutoff - Drop: 3,86%-4,36% - Drop with winrate 48%-, otherwise it will not drop.
• Hard Cutoff - Drop: 3,86% - Drop, except if are BL from lower tier.

Maybe not look bigger, but it is. Those cutoffs, for example, will cancel most part of movements, except for mons that lost all their viability for any reason, like a wall going off because their mon that it checked leave tier, like Gligar and Heracross on pre-ha Era, or it was climatic dependent, like Ludicolo, etc... (Drop Movements) or gained something that will make it very good, like Serpertrary, or rising because of other thing making it good, like Torkoal rising because of Venu Chrolophyll, etc...(Rise Movement)

I'm assuming that this happen if the usage follow the system:

• Jolteon, Espeon and Milotic quickly drop to UU.
• Serperior and Dragonite gets a better position on Usage Table
• The usage will reflect more closely the Viability Rankings, since better mons will keep on high usage due to top ranks use it more.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by caioxlive13