December 2022- Movement Discussion Thread

[Ziiiiio]

Whatever you run dragon dance or specs draco mentor, You are likely to pay a huge price when you test other's Salamence sets. Salamence has excellent 100 speeds which got him in UU let him have a lot of chance to start actions....It s like Lucario in UU before, Both the SD and NP solutions exist, but it's hard for the defense side to determine which kind of sets it is. As i mentioned 100 speed gives salamence many chance to start attack, and the defense is always under pressure to defend frequently. This monotonous and unstable way of coping should not exist. 

 

I suggest putting down Milotic, Jolteon and Porygon at the same time. All three are more or less threatening to Salamence, at least increasing our countermeasures.

[ZeknShooter]

Crawdaunt and Salamence should definitely not go in UU, their damage calculations and the "Haxorus was tested before" excuse to drop Salamence to UU is completely wrong for me. in this meta there are no Fairies and there are hidden abilities without legendaries, in what way is Salamence worse than Haxorus in UU? When Haxorus has a 35% chance to win in OU.
Regarding Crawdaunt... It definitely shouldn't be in the UU either.

I strongly encourage TC to UP them (Haxorus to UU, Crawdaunt to OU, Salamence to OU) the next month.

[caioxlive13]

21 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Whatever you run dragon dance or specs draco mentor, You are likely to pay a huge price when you test other's Salamence sets. Salamence has excellent 100 speeds which got him in UU let him have a lot of chance to start actions....It s like Lucario in UU before, Both the SD and NP solutions exist, but it's hard for the defense side to determine which kind of sets it is. As i mentioned 100 speed gives salamence many chance to start attack, and the defense is always under pressure to defend frequently. This monotonous and unstable way of coping should not exist. 

 

I suggest putting down Milotic, Jolteon and Porygon at the same time. All three are more or less threatening to Salamence, at least increasing our countermeasures.

Milotic and Jolteon will not drop due to usage. The only solution is, after next month, start to use the usage system that i suggested. I think that with this, Milotic and Jolteon will drop to UU. After that, it's good idea drop salamence once again, and maybe lucario?

[Munya]

30 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Milotic and Jolteon will not drop due to usage. The only solution is, after next month, start to use the usage system that i suggested. I think that with this, Milotic and Jolteon will drop to UU. After that, it's good idea drop salamence once again, and maybe lucario?

We have all seen your proposal and it is not possible in the current capabilities of the usage system even if we were to consider it.

[caioxlive13]

 

Can we proceed with a suspect test for Haxorus? I can assure you that Haxorus is not better than salamence, and salamence according to some players is being quite acceptable, far less broken than expected, so why not? I think that in order not to break the tier, do it with pre-planned tournaments with haxorus being temporarily unbanned from the UU during test tours, and banned again as soon as it ends. Then the players rate it, based on tournament matches, which is much more accurate than ladder, and there are no problems with the usage getting messed up at the end of the season, because tournament usage has little potential for that.

But the tours need to have the date and time pre-defined and advice for players that will play that this will happen.

Edited December 3, 2022 by caioxlive13

[TohnR]

For the ignorant bunch that are claiming Haxorus would be fine : no it wouldn't
Haxorus has access to the highest base attack in the game (147) as well as Mold Breaker which allows it to anihilate the main Dragon countermeasure available in UU : Bronzong

It may not be as good as Salamence as an overall mon since Salamence is faster, has more versatility, has recovery options (etc) but it fits in the Offensive Uber category much easier than Salamence because the 1 thing that it does, it does it in a broken way for sure.

I agree with Zekn that some mons dropping from OU could ease Salamence issues, but I don't think this should be seen as an argument for keeping Salamence in the tier or unbanning other previously banned mons such as Porygon2. You don't fight a broken mon by another broken mon, if so just remove both.
 

Edited December 4, 2022 by TohnR

[caioxlive13]

So I think Munya is going to have to unarchive the HA Placement thread. Thanks to the Trash Cup discord guys, we calculated and saw that since the alphas release, we have 57 new HAs, excluding Halloween and the ones released prior to Part 3 update.. They promised 60 new HAs. In other words... there are still 3 new alphas to go. The drama is not over, we still have a chance to see Moxiemence.

[Munya]

They can be dealt with individually if there are, they don't need a thread anymore.

[TohnR]

9 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

57 new HAs

Except that Kyu never mentioned 60 new lines of Ha, he mentioned that the part3 contained AROUND (keyword) 60 lines and we got some repeats from part 2 evolutionary lines in the event

For now we can only assume the part3 is over, and new HAs might be introduced for Xmas who knows 

[gitargy]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:56 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Well, we can see the impact of low ladder. Jolteon is 4.83 usage, but if usage from low ladder gets discarded, most likely he drop.

I can suggest reformulate the usage system? Like:

• 450 or lower Elo matches will not have their usage counted at all.
• 450 - 550 Elo matches will have their usage counted normally.
• 550 - 650 Elo matches will have their usage counted with height 2.
• 650+ Elo matches will have their usage counted with height 3.

Maybe not look bigger, but it is.

I'm assuming that this happen if the usage follow the system:

• Jolteon, Espeon and Milotic quickly drop to UU.
• Serperior and Dragonite gets a better position on Usage Table
• The usage will reflect more closely the Viability Rankings, since better mons will keep on high usage due to top ranks use it more.

I support this. Using a viability rating for tiering purposes is probably a more fair way to assign tiers. Tiering isn't even an issue that directly concerns me, as I mostly play OU. But it is simply more useful to me to have such ELO-adjusted information available to me for team-building purposes, rather than having to guess how much I should plan for certain mons based on their usage, tournament usage, and win-rate.

On 12/1/2022 at 5:34 AM, gbwead said:

I'm still waiting for TC to justify why Dugtrio is banworthy in UU, but not banworthy in OU. Dugtrio is not OU by usage, it is BL. You need to explain why it is banned.

I don't know much about UU, but I can say that Dugtrio is a bit gimmicky in OU. Probably a majority of on-meta mons can OHKO it if it's sash is broken, and with so many rockers that can get in so easily, it is easy to do. Given how common hard-hitting priority attackers are in the tier, (Scissor, Conk, D-nite, etc) being fast is no guarantee of safety for dugtrio. Probably the biggest problem with dugtrio, is that the two most common pivots, Chansey and Rotom-W, simply aren't very vulnerable to being trapped and killed (Rotom-W due to levitate, Chansey due to physical bulk, softboiled and teleport.)  The only relevant role it has in OU right now is to clean for dark types on Volc setup teams that depend on Ttar and Weavile being gone so espeon can keep rocks off.

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, gitargy said:

I support this. Using a viability rating for tiering purposes is probably a more fair way to assign tiers. Tiering isn't even an issue that directly concerns me, as I mostly play OU. But it is simply more useful to me to have such ELO-adjusted information available to me for team-building purposes, rather than having to guess how much I should plan for certain mons based on their usage, tournament usage, and win-rate.

Read my thread on Suggestion Box: Improve Matchmaking. I explain with more details on this post.
 

 

3 hours ago, gitargy said:

I don't know much about UU, but I can say that Dugtrio is a bit gimmicky in OU. Probably a majority of on-meta mons can OHKO it if it's sash is broken, and with so many rockers that can get in so easily, it is easy to do. Given how common hard-hitting priority attackers are in the tier, (Scissor, Conk, D-nite, etc) being fast is no guarantee of safety for dugtrio. Probably the biggest problem with dugtrio, is that the two most common pivots, Chansey and Rotom-W, simply aren't very vulnerable to being trapped and killed (Rotom-W due to levitate, Chansey due to physical bulk, softboiled and teleport.)  The only relevant role it has in OU right now is to clean for dark types on Volc setup teams that depend on Ttar and Weavile being gone so espeon can keep rocks off.

Other main role of Dugtrio is, after the mon that are previously on field, get KO'ed, teleport, or do a Slower Pivot, revenge kill the opponent. Is a hard task due to abundance of stealth rock users, but if he enters after Rotom/Starmie gets killed, he can take the opponent off, and do a 1-to-1 trade.

Edited December 11, 2022 by caioxlive13

[NiceRNGbro]

he has a high distance from the cut, about 3000 battles. How would his situation be? 

what do you think?

I can't see it being healthy anyway in UU

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by NiceRNGbro
.

[Thenavarro]

12 hours ago, NiceRNGbro said:

tiene una gran distancia al corte, unas 3000 batallas. ¿Cómo sería su situación? 

¿qué piensas?

No veo que sea saludable de ninguna manera en UU.

 

I don't see it being a big problem in  UU 

[RysPicz]

Hippo is gonna be fine in UU, so many water types out there that it's life is gonna be a living hell

[NiceRNGbro]

On closer inspection, yes he could be fine, there are many water types in the tier that can irritate him In addition to toxics etc. It will irritate the physical offenses a bit but nothing unbeatable 

 

[TohnR]

7 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Hippo is gonna be fine in UU, so many water types out there that it's life is gonna be a living hell

Don't see how the amount of waters in the tier make Hippow any worse ?
Besides the fact that sure, it's possible to actually threaten it out, and thank god because otherwise we wouldn't even take the time to discuss this 😄 
Currently there are 3 ground mons (Mamo, Flygon, Krook) that are all more used than the most used Water (Crawdaunt). There are so many water mons but that doesn't mean that teams run more water mons than they used to, teams are just more flexible on the water slot compared to back then.
Also let me add that mons got complementary roles and Hippowdon can synergize with a large amount of sand abusers in UU. It's the first proper Ground wall that we get since Roost Flygon and Gastrodon weren't that highly viable outside of countering specific threats such as Rotom-H.

It's not like Hippowdon gives free momentum to water mons anyways, most can't easily switch into Earthquake.
The one reason that I see as to why Hippowdon could be suspect tested first, is that we have a large amount of Flying/Levitating mons so Hippowdon gets into a difficult 4mss situation where it'll always give free switches to a few mons whichever the set

Edited December 13, 2022 by TohnR

[Imperial]

It can be difficult to theory at this stage, but even though I agree that Hippowdon is limited to around 4 moves (with the exception of sacrificing toxic to use Stone Edge/Ice Fang which may tickle the levitate/flying mons currently in the tier) making it easier to bypass, can't we use the same argument that people used about Ambipom restricting hyper offense in NU that Hippowdon can highly restrict offense in UU?

 

Just a random calc I produced (guts heracross as this thing hits extremely hard), but if needed I'll produce more calcs as I may be entirely wrong:

 

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 96-114 (44.6 - 53%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 96-114 (44.6 - 53%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (rocks need to be set up)

[kiwi]

3 hours ago, Imperial said:

It can be difficult to theory at this stage, but even though I agree that Hippowdon is limited to around 4 moves (with the exception of sacrificing toxic to use Stone Edge/Ice Fang which may tickle the levitate/flying mons currently in the tier) making it easier to bypass, can't we use the same argument that people used about Ambipom restricting hyper offense in NU that Hippowdon can highly restrict offense in UU?

 

Just a random calc I produced (guts heracross as this thing hits extremely hard), but if needed I'll produce more calcs as I may be entirely wrong:

 

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 96-114 (44.6 - 53%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 96-114 (44.6 - 53%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (rocks need to be set up)

I don't see how Hippowdon barely living cc from hera means the mon restricts offense, also one mon restricting one playstyle doesnt mean the mon should be banned, the playstyle should adapt, otherwise please ban toge and craw, they restrict stall a lot (jk with the ban thing)

[RysPicz]

16 hours ago, TohnR said:

Don't see how the amount of waters in the tier make Hippow any worse ?

It's making Hippo less viable due to the fact, that it cannot switch in comfortably unless it wishes to outright die or get a Scald burn. Pretty much every UU team has a water type nowdays

 

Not to mention other mons which comfortably take it on like Rotom-Mow, Bronzong, Sigilyph or Xatu which pretty much shits on it unless it's an offensive Hippo which I think might be better than defensive.

 

Regardless, I think Hippo does deserve a chance in UU for sure, on paper it has both defensive and offensive answers.

[TohnR]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

It's making Hippo less viable due to the fact, that it cannot switch in comfortably unless it wishes to outright die or get a Scald burn. Pretty much every UU team has a water type nowdays

Yes it can't switch in on every mon from a team, but again that is not an argument. Hippowdon isn't supposed to handle the water mons and every team having 1 or 2 water mons has been a standard for the past multiple years in UU anyways, since Rotom-H was added and the Lanturn metagame all meta teams pretty much has at least a water mon.

 

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

Not to mention other mons which comfortably take it on like Rotom-Mow, Bronzong, Sigilyph or Xatu which pretty much shits on it unless it's an offensive Hippo which I think might be better than defensive.

That is a more reasonable argument imo and I agree. 

[NiceRNGbro]

it will probably go down to NU, what are your opinions on that

[Imperial]

I'd be very surprised if Medicham doesn't get quick banned, even if Sableye drops down...

[pachima]

1- Hippowdon, a defensive Pokemon, is being justified because it allows other Pokemon coming in

2- Hippowdon, again a defensive Pokemon, is being compared to goddamn Ambipom

 

On the other hand, Salamence was considered to be a Crobat replacement, so...

 

XD

 

 

[caioxlive13]

37 minutes ago, pachima said:

1- Hippowdon, a defensive Pokemon, is being justified because it allows other Pokemon coming in

2- Hippowdon, again a defensive Pokemon, is being compared to goddamn Ambipom

 

On the other hand, Salamence was considered to be a Crobat replacement, so...

 

XD

 

 

What you think about Nidoking dropping to UU next month? Also, Mamoswine will raise and Crobat will be back.

[Munya]

49 minutes ago, pachima said:

1- Hippowdon, a defensive Pokemon, is being justified because it allows other Pokemon coming in

2- Hippowdon, again a defensive Pokemon, is being compared to goddamn Ambipom

 

On the other hand, Salamence was considered to be a Crobat replacement, so...

 

XD

 

 

Mind elaborating?