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[UU Discussion] Porygon2


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image.png.73b64cf13ca24a1bf27824a93768effe.png

 

In October 2021, Porygon2 was quick-banned to Borderline 1 for the following reasons:

 

Quick Banned to BL1 from UU;

Porygon2: Banned for a mix of Offensive and Defensive uber characteristics. We chose not to do a thread for it as this thing has been discussed to death every month for the past year.  In a tier without Metagross and Heracross, Porygon2 cannot be countered in any consistent form by any of the offensive Pokemon the tier provides. This coupled with the fact Porygon2 is able to repeatedly exert pressure in the field by safely switching against large part of the tier as well makes it way too good for the current tier.

 

With considerable changes to the UU meta since this, the tier council is reconsidering this ban and are entertaining the idea of reintroducing Porygon2 to UU, so long as its usage warrants this.

 

With the introduction of a hidden abilities and Assault Gear (+50% to SpDef), Porygon2 may no longer have the offensive presence it once had. In addition to this, new checks have risen such as Machamp, Crawdaunt, Toxicroak, Poliwrath, and now possibly Salamence and Staraptor, that can pressure this once defensive juggernaut. Old threats like Heracross and Medicham still exist. Increased usage of Sableye can check Porygon2 with an immunity to STAB Tri-Attack and Taunt using Prankster. Xatu with Magic Bounce can reflect any Toxic spam, although fears a boosted attack. 

 

With its decent bulk, Porygon2 may also be used as a check itself for offensive threats like Feraligatr and Crawdaunt which currently pressure the tier greatly. 

 

We believe these changes may warrant a suspect test to reintroduce Porygon2 that could benefit UU overall.

 

 

Please discuss.

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17 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

image.png.73b64cf13ca24a1bf27824a93768effe.png

 

In October 2021, Porygon2 was quick-banned to Borderline 1 for the following reasons:

 

Quick Banned to BL1 from UU;

Porygon2: Banned for a mix of Offensive and Defensive uber characteristics. We chose not to do a thread for it as this thing has been discussed to death every month for the past year.  In a tier without Metagross and Heracross, Porygon2 cannot be countered in any consistent form by any of the offensive Pokemon the tier provides. This coupled with the fact Porygon2 is able to repeatedly exert pressure in the field by safely switching against large part of the tier as well makes it way too good for the current tier.

 

With considerable changes to the UU meta since this, the tier council is reconsidering this ban and are entertaining the idea of reintroducing Porygon2 to UU, so long as its usage warrants this.

 

With the introduction of a hidden abilities and Assault Gear (+50% to SpDef), Porygon2 may no longer have the offensive presence it once had. In addition to this, new checks have risen such as Machamp, Crawdaunt, Toxicroak, Poliwrath, and now possibly Salamence and Staraptor, that can pressure this once defensive juggernaut. Old threats like Heracross and Medicham still exist. Increased usage of Sableye can check Porygon2 with an immunity to STAB Tri-Attack and Taunt using Prankster. Xatu with Magic Bounce can reflect any Toxic spam, although fears a boosted attack. 

 

With its decent bulk, Porygon2 may also be used as a check itself for offensive threats like Feraligatr and Crawdaunt which currently pressure the tier greatly. 

 

We believe these changes may warrant a suspect test to reintroduce Porygon2 that could benefit UU overall.

 

 

Please discuss.

Myself and a few others ran Modest with fully invested special attack back when it was in UU, because with Eviolite it was still bulky enough to take some hits from a lot of the offensive threats at the time. 

 

I agree with your examples except for Crawdaunt and potentially Salamence (assuming p2 runs ice beam)

 

Porygon2 - Modest, 252 special attack, Discharge and Tri Attack

 

Crawdaunt

252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 138-164 (99.2 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 103-123 (74.1 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Salamence (unlikely it runs ice beam and discharge, but just in case)

252+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 248-292 (122.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 78-93 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Of course, the majority will likely run a more defensive set so these calcs are unlikely to be used often. 

 

Personally, as much as I loved using this thing I'm mixed as to whether this thing should be reintroduced as it can still cause pressure to offensive teams alongside being fantastic defensively.

 

I would rather wait until a decision on Salamence, Staraptor and Crawdaunt have been made first before making a decision on Porygon2 and other future mons - the tier is already as unstable as it is.

Edited by Imperial
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Well, calc the dmg of some new faces vs Porygon.
- Guts Machamp:
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 174-206 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
- Crawdaunt:
 - Choice Band Variant:
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 110-130 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 92-110 (47.9 - 57.2%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO
 - Swords Dance Variant:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 190-226 (98.9 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 161-190 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 - Dragon Dance Variant:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 143-169 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 133-156 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 120-143 (62.5 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 109-130 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Feraligatr
 - Dragon Dance Variant:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 75-91 (39 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 - Swords Dance Variant:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 103-122 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fine to have? Maybe Yes. I'm not even including Mence or Staraptor because it's most likely that they will got banned in a few days. Don't even know why they allowed mence to drop, like, it's very good even from OU, as a DD sweeper or Wall, on UU the impact will be bigger.

Edited by caioxlive13
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I don't believe that porygon2, especially at this moment of big changes, warrants any discussion.

The things that changed don't obstruct porygon into doing its job. Assault vest users might have an easier switch in but except Machamp none is able to force porygon2 out nor have the ability to really pressure it. 

And the crippling factor for those is still a big thing. All the listed potential checks don't really check porygon2 except maybe Machamp again that due to guts, doesn't care much for the status that might occur. 

 

Crawdaunt, salamence, toxicroak,poliwrath staraptor while able to maybe force it out do not check porygon2 in any way. So the argument is flawed to begin with. These Pokemons don't check it. 

 

On the contrary, the existence of these pokemon allow porygon2 to become an even more versatile threat in the form of a physical defender because p2 also has the ability as listed above to check crawdaunt or feraligatr if equipped with a physical defensive kit.

So while circumstances and new additions might pressure porygon2 a bit and render it unable to act as a mixed wall with ease ( a thing that p2 was able to do), the problem that it oppresses offense by existence still remains. There still are very very limited switches to it.

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I would love to know which mons available in Under Used could use the assault vest effectively as I believe this item isn't used on any Pokémon currently.

To me it doesn't help against P2 in any way, all the more since with AV you lose access to Toxic which is the main way for beating P2, so only mons that would work are fight type. 

Knowing that the main special threats in the tier are Yanmega and Sigilyph I'm not sure Machamp would ever be a good holder... 

 

Out of all the mons you named, Machamp is the only one that can actually check P2 offensively (and to some extent Heracross but it doesn't have access to Drain Punch for sustain). All the others are just hard hitters but they still lose to P2 as they won't be able to OHKO while getting OHKO'd back (Salamence Staraptor Crawdaunt). Btw they are also suspect tested to leave the tier soon, so I'm not sure using them as an argument for reintroducing a defensive Uber is any good. 

 

To be honest if you really wanted to test all BL mons because you're lazy to think about their real power level by yourself go ahead and just drop them all and we see how it goes, if anyone still plays UU... 💀

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10 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Quick Banned to BL1 from UU;

Porygon2: Banned for a mix of Offensive and Defensive uber characteristics. We chose not to do a thread for it as this thing has been discussed to death every month for the past year.  In a tier without Metagross and Heracross, Porygon2 cannot be countered in any consistent form by any of the offensive Pokemon the tier provides. 

Let's get the facts right:

  1. P2 was not quick banned.
  2. P2 never came remotely close to fitting Offensive Uber Characteristics. I asked multiple times for Munya to remove that misguided statement in the ban announcement. 
  3. Metagross and Heracross never countered P2. Heracross did check it to some degree, but it was pressured more by P2 than P2 was getting pressured by Heracross.
10 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

This coupled with the fact Porygon2 is able to repeatedly exert pressure in the field by safely switching against large part of the tier as well makes it way too good for the current tier.

This is the real reason why P2 got banned. This is what makes P2 fit Defensive Uber Characteristics.

 

 

With that being said, even though a lot changed in UU, what has changed regarding P2? Which offensive pokemon can switch on P2 at a relative low cost or low risk and threathen P2 out? 

 

Let's look at the UU list switching against the following P2 set:

 

Porygon2 @ Eviolite  
Ability: Download  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA  
Bold Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Tri Attack  
- Discharge  
- Recover  
- Filler

 

 

Spoiler
  • Blastoise: Bad Answer 
    • takes 44% to 53% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • takes 59%to 71% from Discharge when switching in (no torrent)
    • inflicts at best 23% to 28% with Surf
       
  • Nidoqueen: Bad Answer 
    • takes 45% to 54% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts at best 39% to 47% with Sludge Wave
    • inflicts at best 65% to 77% with Focus Blast
       
  • Golbat: Not an Offensive answer so irrelevant when analyzing the defensive uber characteristics of P2
     
  • Venomoth: Bad Answer takes 56% to 66% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 24% to 29% with Bug Buzz +0
    • Venomoth is still in range of dying after 1 Quiver Dance and remains in no position to threathen Venomoth
       
  • Arcanine: Bad Answer
    • takes 51% to 61% with Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 54% to 65% with CB Close Combat
       
  • Poliwrath: Bad Answer 
    • takes at least 39% to 46% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • takes at least 52% to 62% from Discharge when switching in
    • inflicts at best 73% to 88% with Locked Close Combat
    • inflicts at best 44% to 54% with Locked Drain Punch

      We can look at multiple variations of offensive Poliwrath with different items, but all of them can't afford switching into a Tri Attack or a Discharge.
       
  • Machamp: Good Answer
    • takes 28% to 34% from Tri Attack when switching in (Assault Vest)
    • inflicts 60% to 73% with Close Combat
    • inflicts 39% to 47% with Drain Punch
    • has guts to compensate/benefit from the high likelyhood of getting statused by either Tri Attack or Discharge
    • has access to knock off for the assault vest set
       
  • Tentacruel: Not an Offensive answer so irrelevant when analyzing the defensive uber characteristics of P2
     
  • Slowbro: Not an Offensive answer so irrelevant when analyzing the defensive uber characteristics of P2
     
  • Cloyster: P2 should be the one switching into Cloyster (not the other way around)
     
  • Electrode: Irrelevant
     
  • Vaporeon: Bad Answer
    • takes 32% to 37% from Tri Attack when switching in (full hp vapo)
    • takes 42% to 50% from Discharge when switching in (full hp vapo)
    • inflicts 41% to 49% with Surf Spec
    • inflicts 51% to60% with Hydro Pump Spec (low pp, low accuracy, p2 wins with recover spam)
       
  • Snorlax: Bad Answer
    • takes 23% to 27% from Tri Attack when switching in (full spdef lax)
    • inflicts at best 41% to 48% with Locked Double-Edge
    • reminder that lax can easily stall P2 with Rest, but that's irrelevant since we are looking at ways to pressure P2 offensively, not defensively
       
  • Feraligatr: Bad Answer
    • takes 44% to 52% from Tri Attack when switching in (full hp fera)
    • takes 58% to 69% from Discharge when switching in (full hp fera)
    • inflicts 29% to 35% with Waterfall (life orb full atk)
    • inflicts 46% to 54% with Superpower (life orb full atk)
       
  • Xatu: Bad Answer
    • Takes a shit ton of dmg
    • Doesn't inflict any dmg in return
    • Calm Mind may work when P2 switching into Xatu, but not the other way around
       
  • Azumarill: Bad Answer
    • Gets 2HKO by Tri Attack or Discharge
    • Doesn't OHKO with Locked Superpower or Waterfall 
       
  • Umbreon: Irrelevant
     
  • Forretress: Irrelevant
     
  • Gligar: Irrelevant
     
  • Heracross: Acceptable Answer 
    • takes 48% to 57% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 88% to 104% with Close Combat (flame orb)
    • takes 27% to 32% from Tri Attack when switching in (Assault Vest full hp hera)
    • inflicts 59% to 70% with Close Combat (assault vest)
    • has guts to compensate/benefit from the high likelyhood of getting statused by either Tri Attack or Discharge
    • has access to Knock Off for the Assault Vest set
    • no Drain Punch
       
  • Donphan: Bad Answer
     
  • Ludicolo: Bad Answer
     
  • Sableye: Irrelevant
     
  • Medicham: Bad Answer 
    • takes 67% to 76% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • OHKO with HJK life orb
    • inflicts 61% to 73% with Drain Punch Life Orb
    • Even though Medicham can force out P2, it still has a hard time switching in given the absurd amount of dmg it takes.
       
  • Sharpedo: Bad Answer
    • Dies
    • 50% to 59% with Close Combat Life Orb
       
  • Flygon: Bad Answer
    • takes 55% to 66% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 51%to 60% with locked Superpower
       
  • Crawdaunt: Bad Answer
    • takes 83% to 98% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • dies from Discharge
    • inflicts 57% to 68% from locked Close Combat 
       
  • Dusclops: Irrelevant
     
  • Salamence: P2 should be the one switching into Salamence (not the other way around)
     
  • Staraptor: Irrelevant bc Uber
     
  • Roserade: Bad Answer
    • takes 51% to 61% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 52% to 61% with Leaf Storm Life Orb
    • There are tons of variations of Roserade that could be played, but most of them - if not all - should not be able to break through P2 Offensively.
       
  • Gastrodon: Irrelevant
     
  • Mismagius: Bad Answer 
    • Immunity to Tri Attack
    • takes 32% to 38% from Discharge when switching in
    • takes 22% to 26% from Discharge after 1 CM
    • inflicts 33% to 40% with HP Fighting after 1 CM
    • inflicts 44% to 52% with HP Fighting after 1 Nasty Plot
    • inflicts 66% to 78%with HP Fighting after 1 Nasty Plot + Fighting Gem
    • Requires Timid Nature + 180 evs in order to outspeed after getting paralysed
       
  • Bronzong: Irrelevant
     
  • Spiritomb: Bad Answer
    • takes 29% to 34% from Discharge when switching in
    • inflicts 30% to 39% with Locked Payback
       
  • Toxicroak: Bad Answer
    • takes 65% to 76% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 45% to 53% with Drain Punch Life Orb
    • inflicts 69% o 83% with Close Combat Life Orb
    • takes 32% to 38% from Tri Attack when switching in (assault vest + full spdef)
    • inflicts 34% to 41% with Drain Punch 
    • inflicts 53% o 64% with Close Combat
    • has access to knock off on the assault vest set
       
  • Yanmegga: Bad Answer
    • takes 69% to 82% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • takes 92% to 109% from Discharge when switching in
    • inflicts 40% to 47% from Bug Buzz Spec
       
  • Mamoswine: Bad Answer
    • takes 58% to 67% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 60%to 72% with locked Superpower
    • takes 28% to 33% from Tri Attack when switching in (assault vest + full spdef)
    • has access to knock off
    • inflicts 38% to 45% with EQ after removing Eviolite
    • inflicts 60% to 72% with Superpower after removing Eviolite

      CB set has 0 chance of breaking through P2. Assault Vest Knock Off set has very very very bad odds of breaking through P2, but at least it will almost certainly cripple it for sure.
       
  • Rotom-H: Bad Answer
     
  • Rotom-M: Bad Answer
     
  • Gigalith: Irrelevant
     
  • Krookodile: Bad Answer
    • takes 55% to 66% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 56% to 67% with locked Close Combat
    • takes 28% to 34% from Tri Attack when switching in (assault vest + full spdef)
    • has access to Knock Off
    • inflicts 35% to 42% with EQ after removing Eviolite
    • inflicts 56% to 66% with Close Combat after removing Eviolite

      Same situation as Mamoswine, but with less dmg output, Close Combat instead of Superpower and higher chance of getting a statused because Freeze wasn't a possibility for Mamoswine.
       
  • Scrafty: Acceptable Answer
    • has Shed Skin to compensate from the high likelyhood of getting statused by either Tri Attack or Discharge
    • takes 46% to 54% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 45% to 54% with Locked Drain Punch
    • inflicts 70% to 84% with Locked Close Combat
    • has access to Knock Off
    • takes 24% to 30% from Tri Attack when switching in (assault vest + full spdef)
    • inflicts 45% to 54% with Drain Punch after removing Eviolite

      AV Scrafty doesn't take too much dmg from P2, can handle getting statused and should win vs P2 after removing Eviolite. Since it takes multiple turns for Scrafty to beat P2, Scrafty is very reliant on Shed Skin RNG and there isn't much difference between AV and leftovers. 
       
  • Sigilyph: Bad Answer + Idem to Xatu when it comes to Calm Mind
     
  • Zoroark: Bad Answer
    • takes 79% to 93% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • inflicts 71% to 84% with Focus Blast Spec
       
  • Jellicent: Irrelevant
     
  • Druddigon: Irrelevant
     
  • Bisharp: Bad Answer
    • takes 34% to 40% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • takes 45% to 54% from Discharge when switching in
    • inflicts 38% to 45% from locked Brick Break
    • has access to Knock Off

      Bisharp is vulnerable to status and, even if it runs AV + Knock Off, it still loses vs P2 Bold because of lack of dmg.
       
  • Mandibuzz: Irrelevant
     
  • Durant: Bad Answer
    • takes 47% to 55% from Tri Attack when switching in
    • takes 62% to 74% from Discharge when switching in
    • inflicts 73% to 86% from locked Superpower

 

Aside from Machamp, there is no decent switch vs porygon2. Heracross and Scrafty with Assault Vest can somewhat work if they run Knock Off. 

 

Imo, even though UU changed a lot, not much has changed when it comes to P2. If we are going to retest every threat every time there is a small change, we are not going to go anywhere.

 

Also, keep in mind that I only analyzed 1 set with 3 moves. It gets very ugly if I use the last moveslot to screw with the few answers people can find. For instance, Psyshock from P2 deals 69% to 84% to Assault Vest Machamp which is more than enough to beat Machamp if it dares to switch in.

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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12 hours ago, gbwead said:

Aside from Machamp, there is no decent switch vs porygon2. Heracross and Scrafty with Assault Vest can somewhat work if they run Knock Off. 

Staraptor is decent no? Forgot, he get banned around 30 minutes ago from UU. Maybe dugtrio if drop can do something, but i doubt that it will be allowed.

Edited by caioxlive13
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4 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Staraptor is decent no? Forgot, he get banned around 30 minutes ago from UU. Maybe dugtrio if drop can do something, but i doubt that it will be allowed.

Explain please how tf is Staraptor and dugtrio good switches to p2?

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41 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Staraptor is decent no? Forgot, he get banned around 30 minutes ago from UU. Maybe dugtrio if drop can do something, but i doubt that it will be allowed.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 162-192 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

Prove them wrong Caiox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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5 minutes ago, Imperial said:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 162-192 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

Prove them wrong Caiox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dugtrio maybe not... Maximum is trapping and cutting 50-60% of HP. But will be the same case from Chansey on OU. Will switch(on that case, after Dugtrio faint) and return later to recover. But we need to take one thing onto consideration: if people runs bold, he kept a bit more susceptible to Special attacks. It can't wall both sides. Will wall one side and kept susceptible on another.

Edited by caioxlive13
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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 months later...

As y'all have seen, Porygon2 was reintroduced as a test given the nerf to recovery moves (8 PP) and new hidden abilities, moves, and pokemon which opened the door to stronger attackers within the tier.

 

Thus far, we are seeing that Porgyon2 continues to have a large impact on the tier. Namely, it quickly rose to the top three in usage and has one of the highest win rates among the tier (Empoleon OP today). Most players are using a +SpAtt set, leveraging Download boosts to apply pressure on a tier that does not resist the combo of Tri-Attack + Discharge (outside of Magneton). As we saw previously, Porygon2 also has substantial bulk with Eviolite and can withstand a large onslaught from our common attackers, relying simply on Fighting-types like Machamp to be able to OHKO or RK it. Without investment, P2 can outpace Machamp and there really aren't any other fighting types in the tier that can apply the same amount of pressure (Medicham and Heracross, but usage is bleh). Toxicroak and Poliwrath hit pretty soft and are weaker on the SpDef side, meaning they cannot switch in reliably, forcing you to run a bulky SpDef mon to pivot off of, which just opens the door to losing momentum to Teleport.

 

All in all, this is the premium pokemon in the tier and certainly S-class. Players are already calling for it to be banned, and I might have to agree. The recovery nerf just doesn't seem to be enough to keep the duck under control.

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1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

As y'all have seen, Porygon2 was reintroduced as a test given the nerf to recovery moves (8 PP) and new hidden abilities, moves, and pokemon which opened the door to stronger attackers within the tier.

 

Thus far, we are seeing that Porgyon2 continues to have a large impact on the tier. Namely, it quickly rose to the top three in usage and has one of the highest win rates among the tier (Empoleon OP today). Most players are using a +SpAtt set, leveraging Download boosts to apply pressure on a tier that does not resist the combo of Tri-Attack + Discharge (outside of Magneton). As we saw previously, Porygon2 also has substantial bulk with Eviolite and can withstand a large onslaught from our common attackers, relying simply on Fighting-types like Machamp to be able to OHKO or RK it. Without investment, P2 can outpace Machamp and there really aren't any other fighting types in the tier that can apply the same amount of pressure (Medicham and Heracross, but usage is bleh). Toxicroak and Poliwrath hit pretty soft and are weaker on the SpDef side, meaning they cannot switch in reliably, forcing you to run a bulky SpDef mon to pivot off of, which just opens the door to losing momentum to Teleport.

 

All in all, this is the premium pokemon in the tier and certainly S-class. Players are already calling for it to be banned, and I might have to agree. The recovery nerf just doesn't seem to be enough to keep the duck under control.

  

On 3/16/2023 at 5:10 PM, RysPicz said:

Please take pory2 back to OU where it belongs, I don't wanna make another long post about how it can switch in on half of the tier and then hit really fukn hard with hax attack/ coverage or w/e, all that has been said about it during previous discussion still applies

Gonna answer with my quote from a different thread, because I have pretty much nothing more to add

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Problem of Porygon2 is one: It forces you to trade a mon to knockout it. If we don't had Craw/Shaymin it would be fine... But having they already force you to run some specific mons to beat it. You can't safety trade down mons but p2 force you to do that.

 

Also, please don't say that p2 brings 60-minute matches back because UU is a Slow Play Playground even before they unban it... Tier are the one with longest match time average. P2 maybe worse the situation but isn't the main cause.

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12 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Problem of Porygon2 is one: It forces you to trade a mon to knockout it. If we don't had Craw/Shaymin it would be fine... But having they already force you to run some specific mons to beat it. You can't safety trade down mons but p2 force you to do that.

 

Also, please don't say that p2 brings 60-minute matches back because UU is a Slow Play Playground even before they unban it... Tier are the one with longest match time average. P2 maybe worse the situation but isn't the main cause.

Unless I misunderstood your comment, removing Crawdaunt and Shaymin does not solve the underlying issue with Porygon2 - it can switch into almost any offensive Pokemon which isn't a fighting type, most offensive mons are unable to freely switch into porygon2 without taking serious damage/risk of RNG. It can pivot out to regain momentum if needed and it's incredibly bulky overall so it fits into most/every teambuild. 

 

When Porygon2 was first introduced, most people were forced to run Gigalith/Empoleon/Dusclops in their teams. Defensive teams can handle p2, but for what it was initially designed to do defensively it's incredibly restricting for offensive gameplay, and that should not be the case for a 'defensive' mon.

 

I will emphasise my above comment in response to what you said here:

Quote

Also, please don't say that p2 brings 60-minute matches back because UU is a Slow Play Playground even before they unban it... Tier are the one with longest match time average. P2 maybe worse the situation but isn't the main cause.

Porygon2 is not affecting how long matches are, it's restricting offensive gameplay and should be banned as an offensive uber as unlike Porygon-Z, it carries incredible bulk and can be utilised defensively and offensively.

 

Anyway the duck will likely be rebanned so this conversation is pointless.

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2 hours ago, Imperial said:

Unless I misunderstood your comment, removing Crawdaunt and Shaymin does not solve the underlying issue with Porygon2 - it can switch into almost any offensive Pokemon which isn't a fighting type, most offensive mons are unable to freely switch into porygon2 without taking serious damage/risk of RNG. It can pivot out to regain momentum if needed and it's incredibly bulky overall so it fits into most/every teambuild. 

I'm sayed that before and i repeat: PP nerf affected it making not only him but every wall limited to wall one mon and can't wall another because can no longer heal. But the main thing is that Porygon2 can force out a trade. You need to lose a mon to chip it enough to other mon enter and finish the job. However you had Crawdaunt and Shaymin. They force you to use some very.... VERY specific mons to counter it. Your team must have a coverage with only 4 slots left so you can't confortable trade mons and P2 force you to do it.

 

Also:

2 hours ago, Imperial said:

I will emphasise my above comment in response to what you said here:

Porygon2 is not affecting how long matches are, it's restricting offensive gameplay and should be banned as an offensive uber as unlike Porygon-Z, it carries incredible bulk and can be utilised defensively and offensively.

Let's order the facts:

 

1 - I never sayed that Porygon2 impacted on match duration, i'm countering this argument:

On 12/1/2022 at 8:01 AM, SweeTforU said:

plz dont bring it to uu

unless you wanna bring back the 60 mins matches 

Saying that UU has already 60-min matches with frequence much higher compared to other tiers. P2 maybe get situation worse but isn't because of him that we had those type of situation.

 

2 - Gbwead already sayed:

On 12/1/2022 at 8:32 AM, gbwead said:

 

  1. P2 never came remotely close to fitting Offensive Uber Characteristics. I asked multiple times for Munya to remove that misguided statement in the ban announcement. 

Same situation now. P2 is more Unhealty right now. Not a offensive uber because it never become close to be this in past, isn't now that he didn't get benefited by any change. Not a Defensive-Uber because of what i've sayed: "PP nerf affected it making not only him but every wall limited to wall one mon and can't wall another because can no longer heal." However, it are unhealty because of what he forces to you do, that are a problem giving the situation of UU right now.

Edited by caioxlive13
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