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January 2023- Movement Discussion


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10 minutes ago, Munya said:

If you think its a bad idea you could just say so

I am not talking about Shaymin. When I ask to speak to your manager, it's because you have been ignoring me everytime I mention the 1h time limit, desynchronization, cut-off points and other matters.

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7 hours ago, Munya said:

Thoughts on Shaymin?  Would it be alright in UU if it comes to that?

Sure. Once you explain to me what deals with it without overcentralizing the tier with the same Crobat-Bronzong-Rotom cores.

 

Unless, of course, you want a tier where you instantly lose if you don't bring them all.

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I'm not here to make arguments for why something should and shouldn't move, I do usage movements.  If you think something shouldn't, that's on you to make an argument for it, not come at me to make one for allowing it to, cause mine is as simple as usage dictates it.  If shaymin continues on its current trajectory it will be dropping unless that argument is made.

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First of all, using usage for a Pokemon that can only obtained once, imediately after it was available, is kek. (But whatever. Not here to discuss the system)

Second, did you even bother to read what I said? If you did, why are you disregarding the argument given? If you didn't, why respond at all?

 

Do I need to quote my own post to highlight the key words for you to understand where to look at?

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First. That's not how it works. 

I asked you what stops Shaymin in UU from being overcentralizing. If you, or the TC, are ready to move it down, you should be able to answer that. Since you haven't, the argument was given.

But I'll bite it.

How many offensive Pokemon switch reliably on Shaymin? 

Answer: 0
How many offensive Pokemon reliably revenge kill Shaymin? 
Answer: 2 (Durant and Sigilyph) (And Offensive Crobat, since its gradually rising). Also durant isn't that reliable, since it can lose against both scarf and bold versions.

Let's bear in mind Porygon-Z was banned despite having lots of revenge killers, and although shaymin doesn't hit as hard against stall, it completely renders more offensive builds useless.
Having a dedicated wall for it in offensive teams doesn't work either because Shaymin is able to handle every single wall in the tier individually besides Mandibuzz, which is quite bad nowadays, and just got nerfed. You are forced to have multiple switches to this thing, which invalidates virtually every offensive team and basically forces everyone to either play Balance or stall or something in between.

Is this enough of an argument?

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3 hours ago, pachima said:

First. That's not how it works. 

I asked you what stops Shaymin in UU from being overcentralizing. If you, or the TC, are ready to move it down, you should be able to answer that. Since you haven't, the argument was given.

But I'll bite it.

How many offensive Pokemon switch reliably on Shaymin? 

Answer: 0
How many offensive Pokemon reliably revenge kill Shaymin? 
Answer: 2 (Durant and Sigilyph) (And Offensive Crobat, since its gradually rising). Also durant isn't that reliable, since it can lose against both scarf and bold versions.

Let's bear in mind Porygon-Z was banned despite having lots of revenge killers, and although shaymin doesn't hit as hard against stall, it completely renders more offensive builds useless.
Having a dedicated wall for it in offensive teams doesn't work either because Shaymin is able to handle every single wall in the tier individually besides Mandibuzz, which is quite bad nowadays, and just got nerfed. You are forced to have multiple switches to this thing, which invalidates virtually every offensive team and basically forces everyone to either play Balance or stall or something in between.

Is this enough of an argument?

You forgot some two important facts about the types of teams that could handle shaymin:

  1. Stall and Balanced got huge nerfed on UU due to PP nerfs and they couldn't reverse it because unlike OU(that have regen cores to compensate the less Recovery PP), UU doesn't have any regenerator and even if they give slowtwins regen, it would be insta-banned to OU, if not force TC to approve the removal of Future Sight or teleport of their moveset because will be broken, and will be this or ban Slowtwins to Ubers.
  2. Stall got destroyed in hundreds of different ways to Crawdaunt, and he are popular a lot. I'm not sure about balanceds but if Craw destroys balance(what i presume that do because Balanceds on Lower tiers are filled of slow and bulky mons) it will be a deadlock.

So basically all UU teams will be deadlocked(Lose to Shaymin or lose to Crawdaunt, if not lose to both.), or in better scenario, locked to Balanceds.

Edited by caioxlive13
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1 minute ago, NiceRNGbro said:

not exactly 

Yes, it's real. On a stall vs stall/balanced/semistall the difference isn't big because PP are less spended on those type of matches. You will not click Soft-boiled every time with a blissey if opposing mon is another blissey, or a special attacker that barely deals 15% dmg on your blissey. The biggest difference is a Stall/Semistall/Balanced vs a Bulky/Hyper Offense, since part of walls could wall one mon and then couldn't wall other. Nowadays you could drain Blissey's Soft-boiled PP with a starmie clicking Psyshocks. Even if starmie dies, your opponent will have none or 1 Soft-boiled left. next mon comes in and it's GG unless you had certain counter for it still alive.

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We used to have so much versatility in teams and playstyles in OU. This era is over. We see the same regen cores getting spammed over and over. Seriously booring stuff. But hey, who cares since it seems the solution to everything these days is not to address the problems we are facing. No, why bother take the time to make the game better when you can simply add 20 new hidden abilities, new legendary species and heavy duty boots? If the plan is to discourage us from complaining by distracting us with constant new things to grind, well it's working. Great game design. 

 

Serious question. What's the state for usage movements? I'm not talking about my suggestions to reform it since it has been apparent that I'm being ignored on that matter (what's even the point of this discussion thread if you don't even care to reply?). I'm talking about the fact that we get new pvp content all the time. Sometimes usage goes out the window. Sometimes we still get usage movements. Who is deciding these things? Are we even in the 3 months cycle anymore? Every month since July has been an exception or something new. What's the new normal? Can we get a detailed schedule for movements and what to expect for 2023?

 

January: 

February:

March:

April:
May:
June:
July:

August:

September:

October:

November:

December:

 

Please be transparent with us and tell us what are the plans for the usage movements in 2023.

Edited by gbwead
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January was disregarded due to several mid-late additions.  February we haven't discussed what cutoffs we will be using yet.  Assuming nothing is added to disrupt things we will be back to normal completely by the spring season.

 

Again you haven't been ignored, its an extremely complicated subject with very differing views on it.  Some people don't think anything should be done, some people are open to the discussion but don't necessarily see an issue with the current system. ATM there is no consensus on changing anything.

 

Unrelated but we are likely going to be adding in a way to see usage based on top % ranking of players.  When we will actually get that and how it will be used is not set in stone yet.

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3 minutes ago, Munya said:

January was disregarded due to several mid-late additions.  February we haven't discussed what cutoffs we will be using yet.  Assuming nothing is added to disrupt things we will be back to normal completely by the spring season.

Who made the decision for January? Who is "we"? The point of my question is that things to get added all the time these days. Disruptions are no longer exceptionals. They are to be expected. We know Johto is coming for instance and there will likely be disruptions when that happens. It just doesn't seem like we are returning back to normal in the near future, so that's why I would like to know what's the new normal. With all the disruptions to be expected, how is TC planning to navigate these disruptions when it comes to usage movements?

 

4 minutes ago, Munya said:

Again you haven't been ignored, its an extremely complicated subject with very differing views on it.  Some people don't think anything should be done, some people are open to the discussion but don't necessarily see an issue with the current system. ATM there is no consensus on changing anything.

If that's true, that discussion should be public so people can bounce off ideas to figure out problems and how to fix them. That's what discussions threads are for after all. I understand you might want a consensus on the matter with other TC members, but shouldn't you guys engage with us instead of discussing these things behind closed doors?

 

5 minutes ago, Munya said:

Unrelated but we are likely going to be adding in a way to see usage based on top % ranking of players.  When we will actually get that and how it will be used is not set in stone yet.

I hope my grand children will get to see that day xD That's great news on so many front.

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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

We used to have so much versatility in teams and playstyles in OU. This is era is over. We see the same regen cores getting spammed over and over. Seriously booring stuff. But hey, who cares since it seems the solution to everything these days is not to address the problems we are facing. No, why bother take the time to make the game better when you can simply add 20 new hidden abilities, new legendary species and heavy duty boots? If the plan is to discourage us from complaining by distracting us with constant new things to grind, well it's working. Great game design. 

 

Serious question. What's the state for usage movements? I'm not talking about my suggestions to reform it since it has been apparent that I'm being ignored on that matter (what's even the point of this discussion thread if you don't even care to reply?). I'm talking about the fact that we get new pvp content all the time. Sometimes usage goes out the window. Sometimes we still get usage movements. Who is deciding these things? Are we even in the 3 months cycle anymore? Every month since July has been an exception or something new. What's the new normal? Can we get a detailed schedule for movements and what to expect for 2023?

 

January: 

February:

March:

April:
May:
June:
July:

August:

September:

October:

November:

December:

 

Please be transparent with us and tell us what are the plans for the usage movements in 2023.

I think that will not be even possible to use Usage to do tier movements anymore. Because now we will have cases of mons with HA that will be avaliable on certain dates of year only. Examples are Excadrill Mold Breaker and Regen Amoongus. And they couldn't include this mons on alpha rotation because this mons have no overworld sprite, and they couldn't appear as a alpha to we get HAs of them constantly. Isn't all, but a part of them fall on this situation. Serperior when got released, showed that a mon expensive, even if are good or overpowered as ... , will not have high numbers. Devs and TC will need to search other solutions.

Edited by caioxlive13
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19 hours ago, Munya said:

Unrelated but we are likely going to be adding in a way to see usage based on top % ranking of players.  When we will actually get that and how it will be used is not set in stone yet.

That's great news thank you ! Even sorting by elo would work (less complicated to implement on the dev side for sure) like 500-, 500-600, 600-700, 700+
That would maybe cause some issues in early season where noone is above 700 elo in lower tiers (besides OU) but that'd be it

Edited by TohnR
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Pachismo has a point that Shaymin would worsen the reliance on an already over relied upon defensive trio of Crobat, Bronzong, and Rotom-Heat. Unfortunately though, all three are simply checks and do not counter the flowery hedgehog, and just Crobat can outspeed and deal any real damage in return.

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 135-161 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 36-43 (20.6 - 24.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 99-117 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 53-62 (33.7 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 107-126 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Other checks include:
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 44-55 (29.9 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 90-107 (61.2 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Xatu: 74-87 (43 - 50.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 70-83 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 87-103 (43 - 50.9%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 19-23 (10.4 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 78-92 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
 
 
This means the only reliable counter to Shaymin would be Mandibuzz, which in my opinion is quite good in UU and despite having half as much PP for Roost, can still do a good job.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 42-49 (19.3 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 83-99 (38.2 - 45.6%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 49-58 (28 - 33.1%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mandibuzz U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 38-46 (21.7 - 26.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 98-116 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
 
With that in mind, my recommendation would be to not let Shaymin drop to UU and ban it to BL if usage warrants this. I know a lot of these calcs rely on an 85% accuracy move with just a 40% chance of sharply reducing Special Defense (-2 stages), but 40% is quite considerable and would prompt frequently enough to be a problem. Regardless, very few of the mons listed above can reliable hit Shaymin back for any considerable damage and thus that creates a dilemma in and of itself as well.
 
 
 
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As much as I am usually happy to get stuff dropped even if it's just for testing, I really do not think Shaymin should be allowed to UU in our current metagame, JJ gave reasonable and adequate calcs above. At least for the current stage with more HAs to come out and more legendaries (Zapdos and Heatran pls) to be implemented, I don't think it should visit UU anytime soon.

 

(defensive Moltres would be so good against it)

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1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Pachismo has a point that Shaymin would worsen the reliance on an already over relied upon defensive trio of Crobat, Bronzong, and Rotom-Heat. Unfortunately though, all three are simply checks and do not counter the flowery hedgehog, and just Crobat can outspeed and deal any real damage in return.

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 135-161 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 36-43 (20.6 - 24.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 99-117 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 53-62 (33.7 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 107-126 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Other checks include:
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 44-55 (29.9 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 90-107 (61.2 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Xatu: 74-87 (43 - 50.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 70-83 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 87-103 (43 - 50.9%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 19-23 (10.4 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 78-92 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
 
 
This means the only reliable counter to Shaymin would be Mandibuzz, which in my opinion is quite good in UU and despite having half as much PP for Roost, can still do a good job.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 42-49 (19.3 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 83-99 (38.2 - 45.6%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 49-58 (28 - 33.1%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mandibuzz U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 38-46 (21.7 - 26.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 98-116 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
 
With that in mind, my recommendation would be to not let Shaymin drop to UU and ban it to BL if usage warrants this. I know a lot of these calcs rely on an 85% accuracy move with just a 40% chance of sharply reducing Special Defense (-2 stages), but 40% is quite considerable and would prompt frequently enough to be a problem. Regardless, very few of the mons listed above can reliable hit Shaymin back for any considerable damage and thus that creates a dilemma in and of itself as well.
 
 
 

You could say to me if following mons could do a thing vs Shaymin? A player have listed me as a possible answer to they.
Nidoqueen Venomoth Snorlax Crobat Xatu Forretress Heracross Flygon Roserade Ambipom Mismagius Spiritomb Yanmega Rotom-H Rotom-M Scrafty Sigilyph Zoroark Bisharp

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