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January 2023- Movement Discussion


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5 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

 

Firstly, looking at jj's calculations, yes, I don't think Shaymin would be healthy in our current metagame unfortunately, I'd really like to test him out but whatever.

 

I'm not for or against him falling, but I agree with what DJ said, whatever it is, do something 🙂

 

 

 

Now, Caio, why when you find something are you so fixated on that idea? I see you repeat the same words over and over, whenever you think something is fixed that this is the absolute truth, you really Do you think we have insufficient resources and this affects the usage? This is another one of the antics uttered by your profane mouth, We have a lot of players, PvE and PvP, shaymin comes back in a year, which goes fast, I saw many degenerates captured Shaymin in more than one character, many sold it, many kept it, many don't want to use it and many won't, I think "not having enough shaymin" "the use of serperior has been affected because the players are poor" is a huge joke yes, it affects in the first 2-3 days or at most in the first week, but again, this is not a strong enough argument to say that shaymin is going to fall to NU because of this, or that serperior was UU due to lack of resources, when in fact it was because it was moved there and then climbed regularly by use (or by banishment, I don't remember).

Stop repeating the same things, they won't listen to you about it, because it's not true. Have a good time my aut... friend

 

Also, is it possible to discuss unbanning Draco Meteor Hydreigon? Or is it still out of the question? Now we have new toys, please argue.

 

(I know there are more important things than that right now, but hearing about this case too... )

Edited by NiceRNGbro
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27 minutes ago, NiceRNGbro said:

Also, is it possible to discuss unbanning Draco Meteor Hydreigon? Or is it still out of the question? Now we have new toys, please argue.

 

(I know there are more important things than that right now, but hearing about this case too... )

list some new toy that resists Draco Meteor Hydreigon 

 

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Imo i dont see why ppl are scared about shaymin being dropped, it maybe has a very high chance that it will get banned, but still deserves to be tested like Alakazam (where many people have provided me calcs it will destroy NU, but its completely fine rn)

 

Yes maybe its a bit to much for UU, but thats why we will test it. If it ends up being to broken we simply will ban it. 

It can also help vs the most restrictive mon currently in the tier (crawdaunt) and we might see more new creative variation of new mons being used to handle shaymin.

 

With that in mind my opinion would be to let it test it, i appreciate JJ`s opinion about it and would love other TC members to give me their input 

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4 hours ago, PoseidonWrath said:

Imo i dont see why ppl are scared about shaymin being dropped, it maybe has a very high chance that it will get banned, but still deserves to be tested like Alakazam (where many people have provided me calcs it will destroy NU, but its completely fine rn)

Not only fine but with bad numbers and very close to UT. The mon that before was treated as broken to NU now are almost doomed to get on UT and totally forgotted.

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I pretty much agree with most of what Wrath said.

 

I'm fine giving Shaymin a shot in UU. I like his Alakazam example, lots of people thought Zam would be NUBL worthy yet it turned out Zam is a low usage/very low winrate mon in this tier. Why not test Shaymin if all we have are speculations ? Let's see it on the field. Right now, the top 3 usage Pokemons in UU are 3 potential Shaymin checks; people could also adapt (use more Calm Rotom-H for example so you can check it more comfortably).

I would also like to see the UU meta evolve since I believe the tier is tainted by Crawdaunt's centralization, and surely Shaymin will help with that. Yes, Shaymin is a big threat for sure, however seed flare is not always free to click. You usually don't want to seed flare in a Crobat or a Durant switch for instance. A bulky Shaymin set should be pretty easy to play around, and we could also have new sets being explored to check an offensive Shaymin (Assault vest Nidoqueen? Assault vest Druddigon? Assault vest Snorlax? Heatproof Bronzong if Shaymin rarely uses earth power?!)

 

If it ends up being UUBL worthy, so be it. It would be a shame not to test it.

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On 2/7/2023 at 12:10 AM, caioxlive13 said:

list some new toy that resists Draco Meteor Hydreigon 

 

Empoleon, now that it has roost.

Assault Vest helps too.

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 87-103 (56.8 - 67.3%)

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 39-47 (21.3 - 25.6%)

Edited by HumongousNoodle
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Thanks to TC members for voicing your opinions publicly, it is appreciated.

 

However, I disagree with letting shaymin drop to UU. You don't fix a broken mon by adding another broken mon (or do you?). Like, yeah, there will be less restriction for crawdaunt, but that will create another restricted tier, this time by shaymin. 

 

Honestly don't think it's a good idea, since in the end, it will likely be banned anyways.

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5 hours ago, HumongousNoodle said:

Empoleon, now that it has roost.

Assault Vest helps too.

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 87-103 (56.8 - 67.3%)

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 39-47 (21.3 - 25.6%)

The issue with Draco Meteor Hydreigon is how its bulk allows it to trade damage against most of the stuff, at the same time as it prevents the enemy from switching comfortably. If you slap a Choice Specs in those calcs you'll realize Assault Vest doesn't really matter. 

Offense doesn't switch on it. Balance doesn't really switch on it, or needs dedicated answers. Even stall needs to gamble with whatever move Hydreigon clicks. Bulky Offense just dies because they don't have the speed or the bulk to handle it.

Things become much much worse when you can't even know what set Hydreigon is using beforehand, and thus you have to potentially lose something just to scout it.

By removing Draco Meteor, most sets lose their main power, thus it can be handled much easier.

Simple.

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gotta love the shaymin calcs just assuming everything will be -2 spdef

 

did we forget how awful grass is as an offensive type and shaymin can use its only (85% accurate) real move 8 times?? 

 

I expect it to be a noob trap akin to togekiss that will be annoying but a far cry from broken. drop the hedgehog 

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5 minutes ago, Munya said:

Do you want to elaborate?

Oh I would love to elaborate, but that would mean you no longer have to go back and read what was already posted on the matter. That's no fun; revealing the spoilers without watching the movie, I would never do that to you Munya. Don't you worry, I'll wait for you to catch up and then we can discuss.

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Oh I would love to elaborate, but that would mean you no longer have to go back and read what was already posted on the matter. That's no fun; revealing the spoilers without watching the movie, I would never do that to you Munya. Don't you worry, I'll wait for you to catch up and then we can discuss.

"image.png.83b02525899cce4f67018eda78e29b87.png"
Gbwead 2023

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Is the ability Regenerator being abused, or just simply used? It is certainly one of the best abilities in the game (if not the best) and thus will get usage regardless. Stall is certainly a viable tactic and one that benefited from the PP nerf and also hurt by it. We now see stall rely more heavily on Regenerator which can seem certainly centralizing.

 

Is this a bad thing though? Are matches truly all lasting upwards of one hour? Are offenses truly unable to break this core? Are we seeing every single effective team built solely around Regenerator?

 

If so, then we should do something about it.

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42 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

the ability Regenerator being abused, or just simply used? It is certainly one of the best abilities in the game (if not the best) and thus will get usage regardless. Stall is certainly a viable tactic and one that benefited from the PP nerf and also hurt by it. We now see stall rely more heavily on Regenerator which can seem certainly centralizing.

 

People only focusing on OU and not really thinking what the reduction of pps did to UU which was bad already with the centralizing mons now even worse cuz you can’t use something else other than offense or stall with wish 💀.

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1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Is the ability Regenerator being abused, or just simply used? It is certainly one of the best abilities in the game (if not the best) and thus will get usage regardless. Stall is certainly a viable tactic and one that benefited from the PP nerf and also hurt by it. We now see stall rely more heavily on Regenerator which can seem certainly centralizing.

 

Is this a bad thing though? Are matches truly all lasting upwards of one hour? Are offenses truly unable to break this core? Are we seeing every single effective team built solely around Regenerator?

 

If so, then we should do something about it.

The thing is that it's not only stall. Balance runs Regen cores a lot. The problem is that when a regen core faces another we often end up in a deadlock situation where it's difficult to make progress. Amoongus will be able to switch into the opposing Mienshao/Amoongus with little risk involved. It's not the same situation as having Garchomp switch into Rotom or Rotom switching into Garchomp. Both these mons check each other and can break each other. Amoongus doesn't break Amoongus, they just look at each other and do nothing.

 

On top of that, very few pokemons can switch in Amoongus since very few mons are capable to switch into Spore. Mandibuzz can, but hardly threathen Amoongus. Grass types can switch into Spore, but are instantly forced out because Amoongus coverage (poison/fire). Conkeldurr can switch into Amoongus if Flame Orb is already activated, but Amoongus will most likely win the encounter. The main answers are really Amoongus itself and Gliscor. This shows imo a serious degree of centralization.

 

I'm singling out Amoongus here, but that mon is not the only one responsible for the lack of versatility we see in OU. We have other mons that are currently "too good not to use" and it's very concerning to see. 

 

Sure, you can run a team designed to break Regen cores, that's feasible, but that's not what people are doing, that's not the optimal strategy. People don't bring teams that break regen cores and why would they when they can simply stall out the opponents Regen Core with their own. Why would they deprive themselves of one of the strongest archetype when that archetype already has all the tools to wall itself?

 

I was kind of indifferent about the PP nerf at first, but now it's more than clear imo that Regen cores are benefitting way too much from this. Not only did they gain value since their recovery mechanic remained intact, but they also gained a lot from the downfall of Reuniclus and Togekiss which were arguably the best mons to run vs Regen cores. Espeon, a very good mon vs regen cores was also massively hit by the recent addition of Mold Breaker Excadrill. 

 

After spectating tournaments, ladder duels and PSL matches, I believe there is nothing healthy about our metagame and it's not going to get better. Something must be done, but the issue is so much needs to be undone before we can even tackle this issue. We have the PP nerf to deal with, the timer exploit to deal with and the regen cores to deal with. We can't deal with everything at once and yet we can still expect more issues to arise with the upcoming Johto update. 

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23 hours ago, gbwead said:

The thing is that it's not only stall. Balance runs Regen cores a lot. The problem is that when a regen core faces another we often end up in a deadlock situation where it's difficult to make progress. Amoongus will be able to switch into the opposing Mienshao/Amoongus with little risk involved. It's not the same situation as having Garchomp switch into Rotom or Rotom switching into Garchomp. Both these mons check each other and can break each other. Amoongus doesn't break Amoongus, they just look at each other and do nothing.

 

On top of that, very few pokemons can switch in Amoongus since very few mons are capable to switch into Spore. Mandibuzz can, but hardly threathen Amoongus. Grass types can switch into Spore, but are instantly forced out because Amoongus coverage (poison/fire). Conkeldurr can switch into Amoongus if Flame Orb is already activated, but Amoongus will most likely win the encounter. The main answers are really Amoongus itself and Gliscor. This shows imo a serious degree of centralization.

 

I'm singling out Amoongus here, but that mon is not the only one responsible for the lack of versatility we see in OU. We have other mons that are currently "too good not to use" and it's very concerning to see. 

 

Sure, you can run a team designed to break Regen cores, that's feasible, but that's not what people are doing, that's not the optimal strategy. People don't bring teams that break regen cores and why would they when they can simply stall out the opponents Regen Core with their own. Why would they deprive themselves of one of the strongest archetype when that archetype already has all the tools to wall itself?

 

I was kind of indifferent about the PP nerf at first, but now it's more than clear imo that Regen cores are benefitting way too much from this. Not only did they gain value since their recovery mechanic remained intact, but they also gained a lot from the downfall of Reuniclus and Togekiss which were arguably the best mons to run vs Regen cores. Espeon, a very good mon vs regen cores was also massively hit by the recent addition of Mold Breaker Excadrill. 

 

After spectating tournaments, ladder duels and PSL matches, I believe there is nothing healthy about our metagame and it's not going to get better. Something must be done, but the issue is so much needs to be undone before we can even tackle this issue. We have the PP nerf to deal with, the timer exploit to deal with and the regen cores to deal with. We can't deal with everything at once and yet we can still expect more issues to arise with the upcoming Johto update. 

"yet we can still expect more issues to arise with the upcoming Johto update. " IF they release HA with Johto(and i'm fearing the Slowbro Regen that would be the worst possible case) because Johto don't add any new mon. We will be safe with that.

Only a few mons can really switch into amoongus. Open more doors if one are already sleeping?(example: going to volcarona after scizor take a sleep) Yes. But this is extremelly risky, and the main problem is the fact that you will be negating your mon for a while, and he could be important. Example, on my team, if the mushroom put Scizor to sleep, then i couldn't simply break blissey/chansey until Scizor woke up. Maximum i could do is switch to Scizor onto it and attempt to waste sleep turns. Against Chansey, no problem. Blissey, if she had Flamethrower is game over.

About some answers. Mandibuzz get hurted a lot by nerf PP, and can't threaten amoongus. Except ferrothorn, all OU grass types must be careful to switch on amoongus predicting a spore, to not take a Sludge Bomb as a answer. And amoongus can run HP Fire to scare ferrothorn and since all amoongus are Bold full def full HP, their speed is low, yea, Gyro ball will be weak. Espeon before could be a good answer since amoongus can't really attack, if you run the rarest variant calm mind that overall are bad. Don't tested Bold variant but could work too. And yea, got hurted by Exca Mold Breaker. About Reuniclus, it died complety by PP nerf. Togekiss not really. Sure, part of sets died, but at least choice scarf variant still get unaffected. Need to be careful about spore.

Edited by caioxlive13
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