Debate: PokeMMO become Pay to Win or No

[CanadaSorry]

 Imo a paywall is something that you obtain that gives a statistical bonus that literally CAN NOT be achieved by a free-to-play player.

 

For example. If i spent 1,000 RP for a bulbasaur that has 32 IVs in every stat. Not a typo. 

Lets pretend you pay 1000 RP and get an item that puts 1 extra IV on all stats, and unless you pay 1000 RP there is no possible way to get that extra IV.

 

This is what i would personally think of as something that grants statistical significance. (This is just my opinion. but i mean. They are stats. 30 is better than 31 and therefore 32 should be better than 31)

 

Immediately we run into an "issue". Because in pokemmo you can just do gym runs for 5-7 days, or even trainer rematches, and just buy 1000 RP and get your 32x6 IV pokemon.

 

So to provide a "pay wall" the devs would then need to implement a currency, only obtained through USD that cannot be traded. This of course is not yet implemented.

 

And so, the only thing (in my opinion) that is a legitimate argument for a pay wall at this point, would be "insert credit card+sell RP=bye bye pokeyen but now i have a full team of 5x31 pokemon"

 

This is literally what is happening right now. People just dump their wallets into 1 of 3 things.

 

1) breed comp pokemon immediately without farming for breeders "community accepted as lazy" and just get their stuff now. Instead of later. 

 

2) they invest in vanities and items. Maybe snipe pokemon in GTL and immediately have the money to "spend money to make money" without needing to farm

*again we hit a minor dispute here. Because you can easily gym run for a few weeks and make the same stash to snipe with*

 

3) you go full unknown shiny OT comp pokemon and just are oil prince rich and nothing is yours but its all shiny and youre proud but hats off to ya bud. 

 

You can be 1 or all 3 of these things. Or none of the above. 

 

And thats basically as simple as i can put it. Since we do not have an exclusive "IRL $ currency" that gives anything statistically signifcant, that a free player cannot obtain, our definition of a pay wall is different for each player, based on their end game goals.

 

If you want to be oil prince rich with yen and see billions as your retirement. Of course. Youre going to see an edge to players that just buy millions of dollars to make millions more. Instead of inserting your credit card, you could just play the game for a little while...maybe you make 2m and turn it into 4m. Then you can make that jump to 6...8...etc...i know...i know... Its not as fast as "the guy who just bought 5000 rp" but the point im trying to make is, the investment opportunities are the same. The statistical signifance of pokemon are idenrical. The free to play player just has to plan more than the wallet warrior.

 

If you dont care about OT and just want shinies. Of course. Those unknown OT tyrannitars are going to look expensive and unobtainable. But again. Investments over time....your effort is still rewarded.

 

The thing with pokemmo is....its all fair game. Sure it might take you longer if you dont throw money at it. Thats literally called life. If you want something done faster. Throw money at it...however getting it done "now" or "tomorrow" doesnt do anything here. Theres no extra pat on the back for completing a breed ahead of schedule and under budget. 

 

[FinnTheMember]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:09 PM, MukutsixLisana said:

Lure system

Features

•  Lures
  • Lures are special items which attract more foes in the overworld. They're effective up to 250 steps and are available in all Marts after Badge 2 of your character's region.

 

I bought today with spending 1,500 pokeyen (not RP). Are you talking about this lure? 

 

 

Edit: Oops. Sorry, just realised there is also premium lures. Hmmmm slightly more effective 🤔

Edited December 29, 2022 by FinnTheMember

[YumiJerza]

I can see that on this forum, there are a lot of dishonest people either because they can afford to pay what they want or very old players.
If PokeMMO is not pay to win, explain an important point.
How is it that on PokeMMO real trading is prohibited when they themselves allow it by selling items in a shop for real money?
Before setting rules, it is better to apply them yourself first.
The reason why it is prohibited?
Quite simply because by buying with real money between players, it will not benefit the PokeMMO team so this game is clearly intended to take your money.
And those who say on PokeMMO you can get everything without paying anything are either naive or liars because the time invested in PokeMMO can still be much more expensive than if you paid it in real money.

[Poufilou]

10 hours ago, SacredDiver said:

I feel like it's important to specify what's meant by "hunting", because your initial point was "it's a paywall that makes you pay for something that should be free" which isn't exclusive to the very specific case of shiny hunting. What you're essentially saying is "I'm willing to possibly do 600,000 (30k*20) encounters for my shiny Lure-exclusive" but I'm entitled to this microscopic fraction of that time and effort that I'm not willing to invest in grinding money for Lures". 600,000 Pokéyen is gonna grant you 100,000 steps of lure, I'm not saying that you're gonna get an encounter at every step but it's still a relatively insignificant price for the value you're getting from it.
So yes, I still stand by my point that it's a paypebble, an insignificant price either way, because it takes a fraction of a minute to gain 600$, and this has nothing to do with my personal feelings which I'm honestly not sure why you would bring up all of a sudden lol.
I'm not saying that you're not allowed to be entitled to that microscopic fraction, I just think that it's a weak and bizarre argument that doesn't apply to the exclusivity of those Pokémon as a whole. Agree to disagree.

I honestly have trouble understanding your summary that's a lot of words, what I'm essentially saying is "Players should have choice to hunt freely or costly pokemon" depending on  preferences/wealth. Exclusivity is the very and only thing I regret in these Lures. Even if we're not talking about actively hunting, I still think it's pretty dumb to unlock a pokemon by paying, no matter the price, but it's not a big deal ultimately if you just need it for dex. It is however more annoying when it comes to single shiny hunting, which isn't free anymore. 600k isn't insignificant, maybe you are ready to pay for this activity but I'm just annoyed that it became another thing that will take money from my daily grinds. I would be less annoyed if I had the choice or not to invest this money for this activity with the lure perks it brings (increased encounters and new spots). 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Poufilou

[razimove]

36 minutes ago, YumiJerza said:

Quite simply because by buying with real money between players, it will not benefit the PokeMMO team so this game is clearly intended to take your money.

yeah you should research more on this subject and why it's not a thing for most online games, or why most removed ways of doing this like Diablo 2 AH where you could buy with real money for example, aside from stuff like thode hideous NFT games. 

 

8 hours ago, CanadaSorry said:

you go full unknown shiny OT comp pokemon and just are oil prince rich and nothing is yours but its all shiny and youre proud but hats off to ya bud. 

whats the difference between this or using 6 OT shiny comp pokemons? The cost of breeding are similiar, and the cost of obtaining them is likely bigger, especially if considering rare single encounters that are egg hatched mostly. 
 

[EricRasp]

I'm sorry ... but what are you winning? 

For what I can see, the only thing you can win at is pvp and pvp is not pay to win at all. 1 day of gyms alone can get you enough money to breed a perfect. 

Any other part of the game has no connection to winning. Getting a pricey vanity is not "winning". It's vanity. It's inconsequential. 

 

[SacredDiver]

1 hour ago, Poufilou said:

I honestly have trouble understanding your summary that's a lot of words, what I'm essentially saying is "Players should have choice to hunt freely or costly pokemon" depending on  preferences/wealth. Exclusivity is the very and only thing I regret in these Lures. Even if we're not talking about actively hunting, I still think it's pretty dumb to unlock a pokemon by paying, no matter the price, but it's not a big deal ultimately if you just need it for dex. It is however more annoying when it comes to single shiny hunting, which isn't free anymore. 600k isn't insignificant, maybe you are ready to pay for this activity but I'm just annoyed that it became another thing that will take money from my daily grinds. I would be less annoyed if I had the choice or not to invest this money for this activity with the lure perks it brings (increased encounters and new spots). 

You think it's dumb to unlock Pokémon by paying for Lure. You don't think it's dumb to unlock Pokémon by paying for Pokéball. Therefore bad argument.
You think 600k$ is a lot. You don't think 600k encounters is a lot. Therefore bad argument.

I hope this helped you understand, have a nice day.

[KaynineXL]

5 hours ago, YumiJerza said:

I can see that on this forum, there are a lot of dishonest people either because they can afford to pay what they want or very old players.
If PokeMMO is not pay to win, explain an important point.
How is it that on PokeMMO real trading is prohibited when they themselves allow it by selling items in a shop for real money?
Before setting rules, it is better to apply them yourself first.
The reason why it is prohibited?
Quite simply because by buying with real money between players, it will not benefit the PokeMMO team so this game is clearly intended to take your money.
And those who say on PokeMMO you can get everything without paying anything are either naive or liars because the time invested in PokeMMO can still be much more expensive than if you paid it in real money.

The idea of RMT being against a games code of conduct is nothing new and for good reason.

 

Firstly, RMT deals are are riddled with scams which cannot be reimbursed and the scammer cannot be punished.

 

Additionally, being able to earn IRL money would in no doubt encourage automation which could have devastating effects to a games economy.

 

We are very strict on this and it’s mostly to protect the player base.

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, FinnTheMember said:

Features

•  Lures
  • Lures are special items which attract more foes in the overworld. They're effective up to 250 steps and are available in all Marts after Badge 2 of your character's region.

 

I bought today with spending 1,500 pokeyen (not RP). Are you talking about this lure? 

 

 

Edit: Oops. Sorry, just realised there is also premium lures. Hmmmm slightly more effective 🤔

slighty more effective, however 60x more expensive.

 

10 hours ago, CanadaSorry said:

 Imo a paywall is something that you obtain that gives a statistical bonus that literally CAN NOT be achieved by a free-to-play player.

 

For example. If i spent 1,000 RP for a bulbasaur that has 32 IVs in every stat. Not a typo. 

Lets pretend you pay 1000 RP and get an item that puts 1 extra IV on all stats, and unless you pay 1000 RP there is no possible way to get that extra IV.

 

This is what i would personally think of as something that grants statistical significance. (This is just my opinion. but i mean. They are stats. 30 is better than 31 and therefore 32 should be better than 31)

 

Immediately we run into an "issue". Because in pokemmo you can just do gym runs for 5-7 days, or even trainer rematches, and just buy 1000 RP and get your 32x6 IV pokemon.

 

So to provide a "pay wall" the devs would then need to implement a currency, only obtained through USD that cannot be traded. This of course is not yet implemented.

 

And so, the only thing (in my opinion) that is a legitimate argument for a pay wall at this point, would be "insert credit card+sell RP=bye bye pokeyen but now i have a full team of 5x31 pokemon"

 

This is literally what is happening right now. People just dump their wallets into 1 of 3 things.

 

1) breed comp pokemon immediately without farming for breeders "community accepted as lazy" and just get their stuff now. Instead of later. 

 

2) they invest in vanities and items. Maybe snipe pokemon in GTL and immediately have the money to "spend money to make money" without needing to farm

*again we hit a minor dispute here. Because you can easily gym run for a few weeks and make the same stash to snipe with*

 

3) you go full unknown shiny OT comp pokemon and just are oil prince rich and nothing is yours but its all shiny and youre proud but hats off to ya bud. 

 

You can be 1 or all 3 of these things. Or none of the above. 

 

And thats basically as simple as i can put it. Since we do not have an exclusive "IRL $ currency" that gives anything statistically signifcant, that a free player cannot obtain, our definition of a pay wall is different for each player, based on their end game goals.

 

If you want to be oil prince rich with yen and see billions as your retirement. Of course. Youre going to see an edge to players that just buy millions of dollars to make millions more. Instead of inserting your credit card, you could just play the game for a little while...maybe you make 2m and turn it into 4m. Then you can make that jump to 6...8...etc...i know...i know... Its not as fast as "the guy who just bought 5000 rp" but the point im trying to make is, the investment opportunities are the same. The statistical signifance of pokemon are idenrical. The free to play player just has to plan more than the wallet warrior.

 

If you dont care about OT and just want shinies. Of course. Those unknown OT tyrannitars are going to look expensive and unobtainable. But again. Investments over time....your effort is still rewarded.

 

The thing with pokemmo is....its all fair game. Sure it might take you longer if you dont throw money at it. Thats literally called life. If you want something done faster. Throw money at it...however getting it done "now" or "tomorrow" doesnt do anything here. Theres no extra pat on the back for completing a breed ahead of schedule and under budget. 

 

Well, that's why i say that PokéMMO is partially p2w. On full p2w games, you only win paying. On MMO, you pay to speed up your process of being rich with a ful comp team. But this give a advantage to they? Not. Having a full shiny 5x31 natured comp team don't give to you a significant advantage than players with regular comps 2x31 4x25+. Point is, on MMO you don't buy your sucess, you only speed up the process to reach on them, but anyone can reach there, spending 0 dollars in game. 

[Ryukaai]

I wouldn't agree that lures are outright pay to win but I can understand that POV because while you can indeed buy the premium ones with in game money... It creates a sizeable pokeyen sink if you're shunting certain Pokemon which would be able to be better nullified if using real money rather than the various methods of grinding. So again... I understand that POV 

 

[Ayzakk]

On 12/28/2022 at 12:20 AM, Deliburd said:

In my opinion, if being rich is winning then if it is pay to win but to win as some say you need skill, you can charge a lot of RP but if you don't know how to manage it you will still have much less than someone who spends his time farming gyms but manages his resources well . If your question is whether by farming you can get to what someone who loads RP gets, the answer is yes. It will take you years but you can get even much further by doing things right, now, someone who carries RP has a different growth rate, don't compare yourself, just find your way and be patient, my motto is that patience is the key to success in PokeMMO. Unfortunately or not, the world works like this, the one with the most money is the most powerful but not the one who always wins, maybe you can never have an electrical storm in your life, a kyu hat, etc. but you can have your little things that also help you They will make you happy, it is not equal, but you can still have fun and go far, add luck, anything can happen. Something that I think is very difficult to start, for someone new if they want to go far they must investigate, learn a lot and think a lot, even so it will be very difficult, but... without fear of success, patience is the key to success and have a lot of faith. Success in your Pokemon adventure, I know you will go far since I see that you are interested in it!

💨💨💨💨💨💨💨💨

[YumiJerza]

4 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

The idea of RMT being against a games code of conduct is nothing new and for good reason.

 

Firstly, RMT deals are are riddled with scams which cannot be reimbursed and the scammer cannot be punished.

 

Additionally, being able to earn IRL money would in no doubt encourage automation which could have devastating effects to a games economy.

 

We are very strict on this and it’s mostly to protect the player base.

I understand the logic but it's really a shame that there isn't a black market system in the game that allows you to acquire old objects or vanities that you can no longer have in order to leave a chance for newcomers to obtain them.
We haven't all had the chance to know PokeMMO before, "the vanities are only optional" this is not a reason for us to deprive ourselves of it.
It's totally stupid to say that kind of thing.
We play above all to have fun otherwise there is no interest.
Obviously you can't have everything like in life but letting players raise the prices of certain vanities to more than 5000 dollars without a ceiling is really disgusting.
In my opinion a rare vanity should not cost more than 600-1000 dollars.
This will greatly reduce illegal PokeMMO transactions.

[CanadaSorry]

8 hours ago, razimove said:

whats the difference between this or using 6 OT shiny comp pokemons? The cost of breeding are similiar, and the cost of obtaining them is likely bigger, especially if considering rare single encounters that are egg hatched mostly. 
 

 

 

1)the flex for sure. Ot>unknownOT all day

 

2) speed. The topic is "pay to win" and there are a hell of a lot more unknownOT comp shinies on the gtl than there are OT. Thats because of factor 3

 

3)reality. 

 

Reality factor is important here. Because even when youre "pay to win" and throwing money at earning your own OT shinies.......it takes faaaawwwkkin forever. And costs a fortune. And so, in many cases the default is  "whatever. To hell with OT."

 

We have that deadly base rate of 1/30k no matter how much money you have. No matter who you are. Even with charms and dono, thats still 1/24k.

24k is a lot of damn button pushin.

I disagree that hunting your own shinies is cheaper or even relatively close to the same cost. Thats all luck dependant. Its very easy to get screwed by RNG and need to go 60-70k encounters before you even hit a shiny. The cost of leppas can easily exceed the cost of just buying one on the gtl, and breed it up. Especially when you dont get your target shiny the 1st..4th...7th time in a row. You just want the damn arcanine but pokemon mansion says no. You get 4 ponytas instead.  Even the cost of breeding can be difficult. If you end uo finally getting your target shiny ands its a male.....well damn. Hopefully its not rare or youre going to need a shiny ditto lol 

 

 

[Doctor]

7 hours ago, SacredDiver said:

You think it's dumb to unlock Pokémon by paying for Lure. You don't think it's dumb to unlock Pokémon by paying for Pokéball. Therefore bad argument.
You think 600k$ is a lot. You don't think 600k encounters is a lot. Therefore bad argument.

I hope this helped you understand, have a nice day.

This has to be the worst take in this thread and the crown was really disputed

[SacredDiver]

15 minutes ago, Doctor said:

This has to be the worst take in this thread and the crown was really disputed

This is nothing but a literal oversimplification of my comment before it to a person who claims there's a word limit to the things they don't have trouble understanding (which I think explains a lot). I suggest you go back to your popcorn if you think there's ever been a "crown dispute" in the first place.

[Poufilou]

If you make it simple and it sounds dumb, its probably because it is, just do that in the first place instead of wasting time with big sentences that say nothing but assumptions (and useless things like these). 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Poufilou

[SacredDiver]

6 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

If you make it simple and it sounds dumb, its probably because it is, just do that in the first place instead of wasting time with big sentences that say nothing but assumptions (and useless things like these). 

I haven't seen you point out the assumptions on those big sentences through anything other than logical fallacies, "I have trouble understanding" or dramatic "no u" statements. Maybe the word limit was smaller than I thought.

[ProfessorBlue]

I think it'll be more clear in future like after a few more events. The lures and exp amplifier is surely saying something.

 

The only good thing is once you have good team, making yens in fast enough to obtain most of the RP stuff.

[Raichuforyou]

At least from my American perspective, Pokemmo kind of has a problem where an hour of minimum wage gets you more in-game versus an hour of actual in-game grinding.

[Poufilou]

8 hours ago, SacredDiver said:

I haven't seen you point out the assumptions on those big sentences through anything other than logical fallacies, "I have trouble understanding" or dramatic "no u" statements. Maybe the word limit was smaller than I thought.

 Not playing your rhetorical game, don't have enough ego for it (or energy to veil insults like you do). My point has already been made. Pokemon exclusivity was unnecessary. It's a valid opinion. Loving to pay for stuff that should be free is also a valid opinion you can have. That's pretty much it.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Poufilou

[SacredDiver]

57 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

 Not playing your rhetorical game, don't have enough ego for it (or energy to veil insults like you do). My point has already been made. Pokemon exclusivity was unnecessary. It's a valid opinion. Loving to pay for stuff that should be free is also a valid opinion you can have. That's pretty much it.

I don't know what rhetorical game you're speaking of and I don't feel concerned by your ego/energy or lack thereof. I'm assuming that what you're referring to as an insult was the part where I quoted this statement of yours:

18 hours ago, Poufilou said:

I honestly have trouble understanding your summary that's a lot of words

I sincerely apologize if that came off to you as an insult, though if you're gonna get offended by your own words, I would recommend picking them more carefully in the future.

I thought we had already established that you were entitled to your bizarre opinion and I don't know why you're establishing that once more. I feel like you're just hiding behind a straw man as a way to backtrack from your previous comment, and avoid elaborating on those supposed "assumptions" that you were speaking of before and aren't speaking of anymore, and as a way to once more divert the discussion away from the flawed reasoning that I have pointed out repeatedly, which is fine by me.

[razimove]

12 hours ago, CanadaSorry said:

1)the flex for sure. Ot>unknownOT all day

its the exact same, you don't see OTs in a match, and a shiny is still a shiny. Thats just some personal value, no real one.

 

 

12 hours ago, CanadaSorry said:

2) speed. The topic is "pay to win" and there are a hell of a lot more unknownOT comp shinies on the gtl than there are OT.

Ofc, lots like me, can afford p much anything in the game, and we don't give 2 cents about OT shinies. Not relevant. It's not speed, it's not it taking forever, it's the activity being boring to the point of it feeling more like a chore than any job you may have.


That aside, the game is by the definition p2w and nobody can deny it. Did it become p2w now? No it already was, since a long time ago and especially since vouchers introduction where it became a lot worst.

[NiceRNGbro]

Nerds

[CanadaSorry]

2 hours ago, razimove said:

its the exact same, you don't see OTs in a match, and a shiny is still a shiny. Thats just some personal value, no real one.

 

 

Ofc, lots like me, can afford p much anything in the game, and we don't give 2 cents about OT shinies. Not relevant. It's not speed, it's not it taking forever, it's the activity being boring to the point of it feeling more like a chore than any job you may have.


That aside, the game is by the definition p2w and nobody can deny it. Did it become p2w now? No it already was, since a long time ago and especially since vouchers introduction where it became a lot worst.

 

 

Ummm.....no....they are not the same. I am sorry that after so many years playing as a "rich guy" you still cant find a value for OT but i guess thats just anoter thing we disagree on. 

 

And no...Pokemmo does not match the definiton of a pay to win...just stating, "nobody can deny it", simply suggests how full of yourself you are, as all around you there are people arguing on both sides. To dismiss anyones argument that goes against yous as "nobody" is a clear indicator for how this conversation will carry out. 

 

If youve already made up your mind and are unwilling to budge with anything said, why are you even arguing still? 

[LeZenor]

17 hours ago, razimove said:

its the exact same, you don't see OTs in a match, and a shiny is still a shiny. Thats just some personal value, no real one.

 

 

Ofc, lots like me, can afford p much anything in the game, and we don't give 2 cents about OT shinies. Not relevant. It's not speed, it's not it taking forever, it's the activity being boring to the point of it feeling more like a chore than any job you may have.


That aside, the game is by the definition p2w and nobody can deny it. Did it become p2w now? No it already was, since a long time ago and especially since vouchers introduction where it became a lot worst.

As long as there is no clear explanation of how shinies and vanities give advantages to players, I will have to disagree, at least for pve. It's purely cosmetic and seems to me like a personnal win rather than anything or maybe an ego thing for some. Their value is mostly based on rarity and demand over supply, by the players and not set by default by the game (except their base RP price when first introduced, but then again it depends on how players are willing to pay with pokeyens at release). I would think differently if for instance shinies were stronger than their normal counterpart but that's currently not the case here. I can understand how one can feel this way if their sole purpose in the game was to collect them but to claim that everything is p2w based on this very limited and non-competitive part of the game is disingenuous, when the rest of the game is very accessible without investing any real money. 

 

Again, nobody is winning anything in an unfair manner over anyone when we talk about shinies and vanities, because there's nothing to win and no clear winners other than some personnal satisfaction. There's nothing competitive in flexing your wealth in Vermilion City.

Edited December 31, 2022 by LeZenor