razimove Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) Insults aside, dugtrio shouldn't even be OU to start with, it is problematic, even if it has low usage. Pokemmo usage is completely biased by copycats, like those 2 chinese teams (3 dragons scizor/mamoswine starmie) and stuff like malthuz rain etc, so in my opinion it shouldn't be the only factor that should go into if a mon is healthy to the meta or not (tournament usage for this would be better accurate but likely would require more tournaments for each tier) 2 hours ago, Tawla said: Shouldnt drop shaymin cause of usage because only rich people buy shaymin, the price is so high for a it thats why people didnt use it I struggle to see this as a problem, its a mmo instead of buying it today, farm 2 more days or something, it being limited should be more of a problem, but as of today there's plenty on GTL so it's more of a problem in the future. (yay for terrible implementations) I legit can't understand the reason why scrafty is even considered towards NU, sharpedo is already iffy in my opinion due to how extensive his moveset can be, but scrafty seems like it could pose a problem? And I don't think golbat is a great answer at all: +1 252+ Atk Scrafty Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 68-80 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (no point checking zen headbutt) and assuming he can run Coba Berry which was a common item for DD set in the past, you can't even threaten him that much. Edited February 24, 2023 by razimove AngeloDLZ2 and gbwead 2 Link to comment
gbwead Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 16 minutes ago, TohnR said: What you still don't understand is people want a playable tier and don't care about semantics. This is about logic, not semantics. Semantics would be me arguing that Dugtrio is UBER instead of just uncompetitve. It would be arguing that something should be called X instead of Y. Logic is making sure the reason something got banned still applies. I have no idea how you can possibly think this has anything to do with semantics, but I guess claiming this is about semantics will certainly cast a shadow on the fact that you simply hate Dugtrio (like many others which is fine) and are completly emotional when anyone brings up the subject. 16 minutes ago, TohnR said: Dugtrio is problematic in OU ? Get it banned. In no way dropping it to UU will solve any of the problems it causes in OU, and will create more in UU. That fight is literally scoring against your own goal. There is one tiering policy for all tiers. UU doesn't get to play by different rules just because you play UU. 17 minutes ago, TohnR said: "I would like to point out that you are arguing in very bad faith btw" since I literally mentionned AV Spiritomb as an offensive check to PZ that can also trap it, which complements the return of Roost Empoleon. That changes a lot of things from back then when +1 coverage used to 2HKO. Now if that's not enough to warrant a PZ unban then fine. TC decides that it was just a suggestion. Not gonna fight over it, I don't really care. Oh something changed regarding PZ? That's interesting. Why is it that when something changes regarding Dugtrio (something like the very reason it got banned), you look the other way? I know PZ should be looked at again and I agree. I just think it's very hypocritical of you to make this argument for PZ, but disregard the same argument when it applied to Dugtrio a couple months ago. 20 minutes ago, TohnR said: So I said he's brainwashed and that justifies you saying I'm "a condescending little shit". Only thing that you know is calling out people for doing the exact thing you're doing H24 Dude just stfu. If you're going to throw personal attacks, you better be prepared to take hits back instead of playing the victim. 32 minutes ago, TohnR said: On that note apologies to Awa if he doesn't realize all of SIÂ people's opinions align on Gb's and noone else's do. That's my bad shouldn't have unveiled the truth to him. If a SIA player happens to share the same opinion I do, you label him as brainwashed. If a SIA player doesn't share my opinion, you still label him as brainwashed. I don't know what truth you think you just unveiled, but please ask your psychiatrist for stronger doses. AwaXGoku, Azphiel, Axelgor and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) Well, analyze here... Only commenting movements To UU from OU: Venusaur can be testworthy? Well, he didn't have the support of Torkoal to make him OP in 547 ways, but it can be assisted by prankster users and guess what: Before we had one so the strat would not work too efficiently because it would be easily predictable. Now we had 2 prankster users. Isn't too predictable. However we had Hippowdon to set sand and remove sun. Empoleon even taking the hit on viability with PP nerf, still have some recovery, and still will be the best steel-type of UU Shaymin, we had the market influencing the price. Even if aren't banworthy their movement should be voted. BL1: Lucario, Dugtrio, P2 and Haxorus: For now, better keep them OUT OF UU. Porygon-Z: Got banned because it will be out of control with their best check out of tier. Their main check are back, so the argument to ban it is now invalidated. Unless had other argument, drop it. Edited February 24, 2023 by caioxlive13 Quinn010 and HumongousNoodle 2 Link to comment
hannahtaylor Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 10 hours ago, Taokome said: MAGNETON ISN'T OU ANYMORE?! Magneton was never OU anyway Munya and Quinn010 2 Link to comment
Munya Posted February 24, 2023 Author Share Posted February 24, 2023 Its looking almost certain p2 will be allowed back, a thread should be coming with that hopefully when tier changes go live DoubleJ and Quinn010 2 Link to comment
Imperial Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Munya said: Its looking almost certain p2 will be allowed back, a thread should be coming with that hopefully when tier changes go live Please request TC to have a vote or open a discussion on Shaymin, Venusaur, Sharpedo and Scrafty - it would be good to know how many of them find each of the mons threatening/banworthy for their respective tiers. My biggest concerns as expressed earlier are Sharpedo and Scrafty, I'd rather both were suspect tested if anything. Edited February 24, 2023 by Imperial Link to comment
Munya Posted February 25, 2023 Author Share Posted February 25, 2023 If they wish to mark any of it suspect they can certainly request it DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Munya said: Its looking almost certain p2 will be allowed back, a thread should be coming with that hopefully when tier changes go live DoubleJ opened one 3 months ago, this can't be used? Link to comment
Munya Posted February 25, 2023 Author Share Posted February 25, 2023 22 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said: DoubleJ opened one 3 months ago, this can't be used? Not without edits to be relevant to now. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 As a TC member, I think it's time we do look at the BL1 list and see which mons should be reintroduced. Would you prefer one by one with an attempt to make a decision after one month, or several all at once? Pory2 being the first and most likely. Quinn010 and HumongousNoodle 1 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 The priority should be OU. If the plan is for OU to stay atrocious without any changes, UU should be stable enough and testing threats one at a time seems therefore reasonable. If the plan is for OU to change for the better and UU is expected to be affected by the OU changes, it would be pointless to test threats one by one. If the UU meta is about to be disrupted, you might as well test out everything you want to test at the same time. HumongousNoodle and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, DoubleJ said: As a TC member, I think it's time we do look at the BL1 list and see which mons should be reintroduced. Would you prefer one by one with an attempt to make a decision after one month, or several all at once? Pory2 being the first and most likely. Better not. OU is a chaos right now. I think it's better to wait a bit to get stabilized first. Only thing I belive that deserve a suspect is Porygon but not p2, and yes Porygon Z. Main reason is their main check Empoleon return to UU and with PP nerf making sure that he would not returns to OU Edited February 25, 2023 by caioxlive13 Link to comment
Taokome Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 7 hours ago, hannahtaylor said: Magneton was never OU anyway I'm pretty sure I saw it being listed as OU a few months back in the Pokedex. Link to comment
Eipott Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 13 hours ago, Imperial said: Apologies if I misunderstood but Staraptor is way too strong to be unbanned. I mainly wanted to start a discussion about the banned Pkmn. Moving Stara to UU is prolly not a good idea and tbh I don't want Dugtrio in the tier. About the Porygons: I think there is no reason to keep them banned in the current state of the meta. Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 38 minutes ago, Eipott said: About the Porygons: I think there is no reason to keep them banned in the current state of the meta. Porygon2 even with Assault Gear and new faces on UU, still are a broken defensive uber on tier. However Porygon-Z could be evaluated because the main check of him (aka empoleon) is back to UU. Link to comment
Imperial Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 6 hours ago, DoubleJ said: As a TC member, I think it's time we do look at the BL1 list and see which mons should be reintroduced. Would you prefer one by one with an attempt to make a decision after one month, or several all at once? Pory2 being the first and most likely. It depends which ones TC were thinking of bringing back. I believe that only P2 and PZ should be the main ones looked at. Staraptor/Haxorus/Lucario are likely to still be too strong for the tier despite the new changes so I would keep these banned and Dugtrio as others have commented, is just uncompetitive. Lucario was tested before the HAs came out but from the top of my head not much has changed since then except AV Spiritombs being used more which can't really touch Lucario and Staraptor was recently tested. If we were to only reintroduce P2 and P2, bringing both at once seems reasonable IMO. 3 hours ago, Taokome said: I'm pretty sure I saw it being listed as OU a few months back in the Pokedex. You are thinking about Magnezone, which evolves from Magneton: The left one is rising to UU, the right one is and has always been in OU. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
Offlliner Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 I think Sharpedo deserves a suspect Test but scrafty definitly shouldn't come down to NU. Amazing bulkiness abilities and typing in our current NU which has little to no answers for it. AngeloDLZ2 1 Link to comment
Taokome Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Imperial said: You are thinking about Magnezone, which evolves from Magneton: The left one is rising to UU, the right one is and has always been in OU. Yes! Thank you. Quinn010 1 Link to comment
LeJovi Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 9 hours ago, DoubleJ said: As a TC member, I think it's time we do look at the BL1 list and see which mons should be reintroduced. Would you prefer one by one with an attempt to make a decision after one month, or several all at once? Pory2 being the first and most likely. test all if real RysPicz, DoubleJ and AwaXGoku 3 Link to comment
LifeStyleNORE Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 I might be wrong but didn't Porygon2 get banned because it (Modest set) had very few switches (vs offensive/balanced teams) and forced out a lot of stuff? What changed since then? Let's see some examples of what a Full HP Modest Pory2 can do in the current meta: Machamp: Comes in twice, only forces Pory2 and has to predict Spiritomb switch Spoiler +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Machamp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 59-70 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Nidoking: Loses the 1v1 Spoiler 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 122-146 (63.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 182-216 (116.6 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Blastoise: Loses the 1v1 Spoiler 252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 54-64 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 106-126 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 84-100 (54.1 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Crawdaunt: Loses the 1v1 Spoiler 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 156-184 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 208-246 (149.6 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 156-184 (112.2 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Venomoth: Might win the 1v1 if Sleep Powder doesn't miss and/or doesn't get statused from Tri Attack (Maybe Sub/Disable has a good chance too?) Spoiler 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 82-97 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 55-66 (37.9 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 42-49 (28.9 - 33.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO +2 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO Feraligatr: Loses the 1v1 Spoiler 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 79-95 (41.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 152-180 (94.4 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 170-202 (105.5 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Pory2 can even potentially check/Revenge Kill a +2 Feraligatr...without any Def investment +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-188 (83.3 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Cloyster: Loses the 1v1, even if setup with Sash Spoiler +2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 140-170 (72.9 - 88.5%) -- approx. 2HKO Medicham: wins the 1v1, but can't switch in and same case as Machamp, Spiritomb exists Spoiler +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Medicham: 121-144 (89.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 200-236 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO Trick with Ring Target could mess up Pory2+Spiritomb though if unexpected. Bisharp: Loses the 1v1 Spoiler 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 57-67 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 11% chance to 3HKO 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2 on a critical hit: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO +2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 111-132 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2 on a critical hit: 168-198 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 85-101 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Yanmega: Loses the 1v1 Spoiler 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 76-90 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 202-238 (125.4 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 151-178 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO Also beats Flygon, Ambipom, Krookodile, etc. no need to post more calcs imo. Defensive answers: Snorlax, Umbreon, Dusclops, Gastrodon, Bronzong, Gigalith. Most of these only seen on stall/semi-stall builds. Bronzong and maybe Gigalith on balance builds. My stance on it: Porygon2 against Offense/Balance is still the same annoying threat as before. Either it forces something out with powerful attacks that can RNG, or forces a 1v1 trade. Stall teams could care less about it since it can't break them and gets fucked by Toxic. I don't believe it would be a good idea to drop it to UU. RysPicz, pachima, BlizzardGG and 3 others 6 Link to comment
pachima Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 24 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said: I might be wrong but didn't Porygon2 get banned because it (Modest set) had very few switches (vs offensive/balanced teams) and forced out a lot of stuff? What changed since then? Let's see some examples of what a Full HP Modest Pory2 can do in the current meta: Machamp: Comes in twice, only forces Pory2 and has to predict Spiritomb switch Reveal hidden contents +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Machamp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 59-70 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Nidoking: Loses the 1v1 Reveal hidden contents 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 122-146 (63.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 182-216 (116.6 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Blastoise: Loses the 1v1 Reveal hidden contents 252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 54-64 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO +2 252+ SpA Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 106-126 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 84-100 (54.1 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Crawdaunt: Loses the 1v1 Reveal hidden contents 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 156-184 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 208-246 (149.6 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 156-184 (112.2 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Venomoth: Might win the 1v1 if Sleep Powder doesn't miss and/or doesn't get statused from Tri Attack (Maybe Sub/Disable has a good chance too?) Reveal hidden contents 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 82-97 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 55-66 (37.9 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 42-49 (28.9 - 33.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO +2 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO Feraligatr: Loses the 1v1 Reveal hidden contents 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 79-95 (41.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 152-180 (94.4 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 170-202 (105.5 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Pory2 can even potentially check/Revenge Kill a +2 Feraligatr...without any Def investment +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-188 (83.3 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Cloyster: Loses the 1v1, even if setup with Sash Reveal hidden contents +2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 140-170 (72.9 - 88.5%) -- approx. 2HKO Medicham: wins the 1v1, but can't switch in and same case as Machamp, Spiritomb exists Reveal hidden contents +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Medicham: 121-144 (89.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 200-236 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO Trick with Ring Target could mess up Pory2+Spiritomb though if unexpected. Bisharp: Loses the 1v1 Reveal hidden contents 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 57-67 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 11% chance to 3HKO 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2 on a critical hit: 84-100 (43.7 - 52%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO +2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 111-132 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2 on a critical hit: 168-198 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 85-101 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Yanmega: Loses the 1v1 Reveal hidden contents 252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 76-90 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 202-238 (125.4 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO +1 252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 151-178 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO Also beats Flygon, Ambipom, Krookodile, etc. no need to post more calcs imo. Defensive answers: Snorlax, Umbreon, Dusclops, Gastrodon, Bronzong, Gigalith. Most of these only seen on stall/semi-stall builds. Bronzong and maybe Gigalith on balance builds. My stance on it: Porygon2 against Offense/Balance is still the same annoying threat as before. Either it forces something out with powerful attacks that can RNG, or forces a 1v1 trade. Stall teams could care less about it since it can't break them and gets fucked by Toxic. I don't believe it would be a good idea to drop it to UU. I agree with everything. Just one thing. P2 is naturally faster than Machamp, which means AV machamp cannot be either 252 atk or 252 HP. Also AV machamp cannot outright OHKO P2, which means realistically Machamp will only come once. Link to comment
Eipott Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) You just took a pory 2 with Download proc and argueing that it denies Offensive Teams completely because you can't switch in into it? First of all it doesn't proc download in every scenario. If you take this argument the other way around, Pory2 can't switch into a lot of Offensive Mons. Yanmega can 2HKO P2 with a little bit of chip damage (even rocks are enough with high rolls). Toxicroak straight up OHKos with CC on switch in and 2HKOs with other sets. Bisharp 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed in revenge. Cloyster can setup on switch in and survive with sash and Band cloyster can 2HKO P2 on switch. (Even with Jolly) 252 Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 95-120 (49.4 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO Crawdaunt 2HKOs with every move but aqua jet on switch in. Blastoise 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed after first attack (I mean obviously it will get para, but thats not the point). The Nido and Machamp Calcs are pretty obvious on this one. Of Course Pory2 can cause trouble for offensive Mons if it gets the Download Boost, but it cant recover in the attacking turn which means that it gets chipped by many offensive mons and forced out afterwards. Edited February 25, 2023 by Eipott DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
pachima Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, Eipott said: You just took a pory 2 with Download proc and argueing that it denies Offensive Teams completely because you can switch in into it? First of all it doesn't proc download in every scenario. If you take this argument the other way around, Pory2 can't switch into a lot of Offensive Mons. Yanmega can 2HKO P2 with a little bit of chip damage (even rocks are enough with high rolls). Toxicroak straight up OHKos with CC on switch in and 2HKOs with other sets. Bisharp 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed in revenge. Cloyster can setup on switch in and survive with sash and Band cloyster can 2HKO P2 on switch. (Even with Jolly) 252 Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 95-120 (49.4 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO Crawdaunt 2HKOs with every move but aqua jet on switch in. Blastoise 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed after first attack (I mean obviously it will get para, but thats not the point). The Nido and Machamp Calcs are pretty obvious on this one. Of Course Pory2 can cause trouble for offensive Mons if it gets the Download Boost, but it cant recover in the attacking turn which means that it gets chipped by many offensive mons and forced out afterwards. That's not how it works. Porygon2 can usually afford being on the field on stall teams because stall teams are, by definition, meant to keep switching. This means that eventually p2 will be on field. What happens when P2 is on the field? Offense is forced to lose a mon. What happens next? Stall will just keep switching over and over again until P2 is on the field again. Is this valid the other way around? No. Because offense isnt meant to keep switching. It is meant to keep exerting pressure. Offense is meant to keep shifting momentum. Usually, against stall, this is very possible, since most Pokemon there are very passive, thus balancing the two styles. However, P2 just ignores all this and says: No, you won't have momentum, and you will lose a Pokemon. It doesn't matter if you can then revenge kill me because my team is meant to switch into whatever you send again, and yours is not. TLDR; Shifting momentum offensively is the only way Offense can deal with more defensive playstyles, and P2 completely denies them of all that. Link to comment
GodobitoFF Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 On 24/2/2023 at 8:30, gbwead said: ¿Podemos obtener una respuesta clara del personal sobre sus intenciones con respecto a OU? Hemos esperado durante meses y no estamos cerca de tener una mínima pista de lo que está pasando. Regenerador PP Nerf Quieres que metan de nuevo los pp de recuperacion ext ?. Por que eso no va a volver a pasar es muy poca la posibilidad y este meta se adapta al de la 8 Generacion hay que adaptarse a cambios bro. LeJovi 1 Link to comment
NiceRNGbro Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 despite being written March in the topic, I still have the doubt... Excuse my stupidity, but will these changes be implemented at the end of this month or only at the end of March after the seasonals? Sorry 😣 Link to comment
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