March 2023 Movement Discussion

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, NiceRNGbro said:

despite being written March in the topic, I still have the doubt...

 

Excuse my stupidity, but will these changes be implemented at the end of this month or only at the end of March after the seasonals?

 

Sorry 😣

march 1st

[caioxlive13]

Well, Gbwead on the Porygon2 post showed that we don't have decent switches to Porygon2 on november. And from there, we don't have any offensive mon's ha that got released and become relevant. The few relevant offensive HA are all in OU. Only new face was Shaymin and Venusaur. Even with PP nerf limiting their durability, still can force a trade. So, better remain p2 banned.

 

P-Z i've specified. Now their main check are back so it can be tested(and most likely allowed)

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, caioxlive13 said:

Well, Gbwead on the Porygon2 post showed that we don't have decent switches to Porygon2 on november. And from there, we don't have any offensive mon's ha that got released and become relevant. The few relevant offensive HA are all in OU. Only new face was Shaymin and Venusaur. Even with PP nerf limiting their durability, still can force a trade. So, better remain p2 banned.

 

P-Z i've specified. Now their main check are back so it can be tested(and most likely allowed)

November was prior to the pp nerf. P2 could be pressured more now, it's hard to tell.

[LifeStyleNORE]

1 hour ago, Eipott said:

You just took a pory 2 with Download proc and argueing that it denies Offensive Teams completely because you can't switch in into it?

 

First of all it doesn't proc download in every scenario.

 

If you take this argument the other way around, Pory2 can't switch into a lot of Offensive Mons.

Yanmega can 2HKO P2 with a little bit of chip damage (even rocks are enough with high rolls).

 

Toxicroak straight up OHKos with CC on switch in and 2HKOs with other sets.

 

Bisharp 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed in revenge.

 

Cloyster can setup on switch in and survive with sash and Band cloyster can 2HKO P2 on switch. (Even with Jolly)
252 Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 95-120 (49.4 - 62.5%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO

 

Crawdaunt 2HKOs with every move but aqua jet on switch in.

 

Blastoise 2HKOs after setup and cant be killed after first attack (I mean obviously it will get para, but thats not the point).

The Nido and Machamp Calcs are pretty obvious on this one.

Of Course Pory2 can cause trouble for offensive Mons if it gets the Download Boost, but it cant recover in the attacking turn which means that it gets chipped by many offensive mons and forced out afterwards.

Pachima already answered most of your points, but also yes the download boost will proc against most of the mons I mentioned. 

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

November was prior to the pp nerf. P2 could be pressured more now, it's hard to tell.

Like i sayed, even if had durability halved, can still force a 1 for 1 trade. And with UU overcentralized on some mons, that's a huge problem because you need to have mons for each of them and we can't lose it easily. We have Crawdaunt. We will see Shaymin, and Porygon-Z are a candidate to suspect test. Forcing one mon of opponent to be knocked out in order to break p2, can remove one of, if not the only, answer that team had for one of those threats.

Edited February 25, 2023 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

P2 was banned as Defensive Uber. P2 has now been significantly nerfed because of the PP reduction. The reason P2 got banned is therefore in question. Considering UU is about to be a shit show anyways, P2 is not going to cause any unecessary disruptions.

 

Talking about overcentralization is irrelevant in this case. P2 was not banned for being overcentralizing, it was banned for being defensive uber, aka being broken. It's also absurd to justify a P2 ban based on speculative overcentralization. 

[caioxlive13]

23 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Talking about overcentralization is irrelevant in this case. P2 was not banned for being overcentralizing, it was banned for being defensive uber, aka being broken. It's also absurd to justify a P2 ban based on speculative overcentralization. 

I've talked that we have a ton of other mons overcentralizing the meta. Before craw, now shaymin and possibly P-Z since their suspect now is considered by the people. Our teams need to have somethings specifically for they and we couldn't easily trade down one of our mons. Porygon2 don't do any choice to you, you must trade down one of your mons to break it. I think that it are more Unhealty than Defensive-Uber because you had a way to knock it down. But it will force you to do a thing that you most likely can't do that are trading a mon for it,  is almost impossible on UU due to some centralizing mons have a few answers, you can't lose they for free.

Edited February 25, 2023 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

@Munya Please ask devs to create the PokeMMO Orb. When a pokemon has the PokeMMO Orb equipped as an held item, it will allow this pokemon to use 16 PP of Recover, Rest, Slack Off, etc. and will also block Regenerator from working for the opponent.

 

The PokeMMO Orb would give players a way to still use 16 PP of recovery moves at the high cost of an held item and would also create a counter measure versus Regenerator Pokemons.

[PoseidonWrath]

18 hours ago, Imperial said:

Please request TC to have a vote or open a discussion on Shaymin, Venusaur, Sharpedo and Scrafty - it would be good to know how many of them find each of the mons threatening/banworthy for their respective tiers.

 

My biggest concerns as expressed earlier are Sharpedo and Scrafty, I'd rather both were suspect tested if anything.

My opinion about Scrafty is i think it wouldnt be that great especially when theres a Quaksire in the tier. Bold Mantine/ Golbat also can shut scrafty down. 

 

About Sharpedo i believe it was in the tier before and i think it should be suspected but I think the tier is in good shape. Physical/Special/Mixed is a deadly combo and not many can switch into it. Would love some other TC input about this one.

 

Shaymin i already gave my opinion that i support it to move it down.

 

Venusaur might be also a really tricky. Yes torkoal isnt in the tier which means the player has to setup sun for Venusaur. RotomH might be seen more Calm to help vs Venu but i dont think that will be enough. We have seen more AV users in the tier so maybe that will backfire Venu`s chance to sweep.

Also about this one i got mixed feelings. Would love some other TC`s input.

[Imperial]

23 minutes ago, PoseidonWrath said:

My opinion about Scrafty is i think it wouldnt be that great especially when theres a Quaksire in the tier. Bold Mantine/ Golbat also can shut scrafty down. 

 

About Sharpedo i believe it was in the tier before and i think it should be suspected but I think the tier is in good shape. Physical/Special/Mixed is a deadly combo and not many can switch into it. Would love some other TC input about this one.

 

Shaymin i already gave my opinion that i support it to move it down.

 

Venusaur might be also a really tricky. Yes torkoal isnt in the tier which means the player has to setup sun for Venusaur. RotomH might be seen more Calm to help vs Venu but i dont think that will be enough. We have seen more AV users in the tier so maybe that will backfire Venu`s chance to sweep.

Also about this one i got mixed feelings. Would love some other TC`s input.

I appreciate your input and I'm looking forward to hearing more views from TC.

 

Scrafty - I completely agree and I overlooked some of its checks in my previous post. However, I don't think Bold Mantine will be used very often if at all when you have Golbat and Slowbro to reliably check physical Blazikens and Azumarill which opens up for Scrafty (Golbat checks Scrafty pretty well at +1 but it depends on how much it's been chipped beforehand especially with its rocks weakness).

 

+1 252 Atk Scrafty Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 66-78 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 

 

Bear in mind that several Scrafty's will be running coba berry and if it kills Scrafty then it opens itself up to being revenge killed by something else, especially if it can't safely switch back in with rocks on the field.

 

Quagsire will be used a lot, of course, but I think the most common core will be Piloswine/Steelix, Slowbro, Golbat. 

 

Sharpedo - This was in the tier before and it's very fragile but it's very threatening as a late sweeper, especially against offense-based teams which is what I'm most concerned about as it potentially restricts a playstyle.

 

If the opposing team's mons are chipped enough, this thing can pretty much clean the game, with only Ninjask outspeeding it. Yes it relies on wasting a move to set up against scarfers/faster mons (unless the opponent switches out) and more defensive teams can handle this, but it should definitely be suspect tested at the minimum. If I need to provide relevant calcs for this I'll look into it when I have more time.

 

I expect to see AV Hitmonchans being used a lot more if Sharpedo is reintroduced in the tier.

 

Shaymin - I saw people discussing this and I haven't tried it yet to have a personal view, but from what I've seen its movepool coverage is insane alongside it having pretty good bulk. With how UU currently is, I can see it being fine, but against more offensive teams this could be an issue, but not enough for a quickban. It may be safe to suspect test this and see what happens?

 

Venusaur - Agreed, as mentioned in my previous post it doesn't require someone to braindead switch in Torkoal to set up sun but this can still pose offensive pressure in teams. The main checks I can think of are Snorlax, Gigalith (although it gets hit quite hard by giga drain) and potentially Umbreon/Empoleon.

 

I'm mixed on this one as well, last time we had Torkoal and UU was basically a weather war between sand and sun.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Imperial

[LifeStyleNORE]

17 minutes ago, PoseidonWrath said:

My opinion about Scrafty is i think it wouldnt be that great especially when theres a Quaksire in the tier. Bold Mantine/ Golbat also can shut scrafty down. 

im not too sold on Mantine being a counter. Scrafty can learn Thunderpunch and Stone Edge. Golbat most likely loses to DD Coba.

 

Quagsire is legit keeping NU from being a clusterfuck by handling most setup behemoths.

[KaynineXL]

Yeh I think testing all and scraping back those that you deem ban worthy is probably the best route. I don’t think you can get the best understanding of how they would be without doing that.

[Imperial]

1 minute ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

im not too sold on Mantine being a counter. Scrafty can learn Thunderpunch and Stone Edge. Golbat most likely loses to DD Coba.

 

Quagsire is legit keeping NU from being a clusterfuck by handling most setup behemoths.

If Quagsire has to be spammed in the tier then in my opinion it's no different than everyone having to spam Poliwrath/Toxicroak to keep Crawdaunt in check in UU, plus I believe Slowbro overshines Quagsire and may be used more in the meta.

 

1 minute ago, KaynineXL said:

Yeh I think testing all and scraping back those that you deem ban worthy is probably the best route. I don’t think you can get the best understanding of how they would be without doing that.

Agreed - everyone knew that Staraptor was broken but a suspect test took place to confirm everybody's view as you can't always theorymon, the suspect test only lasted a few days which tells you everything about this mon.

 

My point is suspect test all of the Pokemon I mentioned. If a Pokemon is deemed too strong, quickban it after a few days, if it needs more time, extend the duration or remove the test completely if there were no issues. By not suspect testing in the first place, it means the Pokemon is completely okay and then a new thread has to be opened, etc when it turns out that there are actually problems.

[caioxlive13]

6 minutes ago, Imperial said:

 

Agreed - everyone knew that Staraptor was broken but a suspect test took place to confirm everybody's view as you can't always theorymon, the suspect test only lasted a few days which tells you everything about this mon.

 

Fixing a information: the suspect test last in fact only a few hours. Before movement happens we had theorymon but Staraptor gets allowed only for a few hours before gets banned. Quickest ban that aren't quickban, on MMO history.

Edited February 25, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Umbramol]

First of all. we need to monitor shaymin and its capabilities in the tier. there is a good chance that it might be too much for UU to handle.

excellent wallbreaking capabilities with seed flare and great stats which allow it to survive many hits and tough to be revenge killed.

So i advise to focus into that. 

Venusaur and empoleon are ok additions. no discussion needed there.

About porygon2, the problematic part about it was that except being a defensive powerhouse, it was also very capable offensively. the bulky modest set was insane against offense

and still remains like that. the recovery nerf has hit its longevity but assault vest didnt change to how it oppresses offense as shown before in the thread. 

But i believe that the tier being much wider than before might ease this issue a bit by applying more pressure to it than before and making it generally more difficult to keep freely coming in. the tier now has more strong hard hitters and wallbreakers that can pressure the modest variant a lot. 

So in my opinion a test can be justified. though i believe porygonZ makes much more sense to re-appear on the tier than porygon2. it seems that it can be handled much better than before with the introduction of AV.

[GodobitoFF]

22 hours ago, NiceRNGbro said:

a pesar de estar escrito marzo en el tema, sigo con la duda...

 

Disculpe mi estupidez, pero ¿se implementarán estos cambios a fines de este mes o solo a fines de marzo después de las temporadas?

 

Lo siento 😣

El nerfeo ya esta hecho bro los pp de curacion ya estan nerfeados

[Ziiiiio]

let Torkoal go to UU plzzzzzzzzz

[NiceRNGbro]

changes are considered "done" at what point? from this post? or can we consider using now for teambuilding?

 

Like Jolteon UU (4,26% usage atm)

Or toxicroak OU (4,36% usage atm) 🤡🤡

Nidoqueen and Rhyperior 4,25%- for example

 

Should this be considered by us players or will only those in the post move? 

[drewq]

On 2/25/2023 at 11:47 AM, PoseidonWrath said:

My opinion about Scrafty is i think it wouldnt be that great especially when theres a Quaksire in the tier. Bold Mantine/ Golbat also can shut scrafty down. 

Quagsire trades at best versus Bulk Up/Rest Scrafty, and Mantine is forced to run Air Slash/Hurricane over the ever-valuable Toxic. 

 

Golbat does not love coming in on DD variants as shown by calcs previously posted.

 

Phenomenal bulk with a pair of potentially devastating setup options will prove to be too much for the tier, it is clear as day.

Edited February 27, 2023 by drewq

[Imperial]

@Munya

Going forwards please can we have more transparency regarding when the usage movement is locked? Sometimes it's on the day and sometimes it happens 1-2 days before the end of the month.

 

Since the date this thread opened, there have already been some notable changes:

 

 

Scrafty - Would remain in UU

Ninjask - Would rise to UU

Nidoqueen - Would drop down to NU (surely this is too strong for the tier so deserves a BL?)

 

Also at long last Jolteon would drop from OU to UU...

 

 

Another issue which would be good to address is whether 4.36% is enough for UU and NU, as the ladder is hardly active compared to previous seasons (which was addressed before) that it's so easy to manipulate so many Pokemon - look at the amount of changes which have happened over the weekend for example.

 

I would propose rising it to between 4.75-5%, depending on new HAs added etc. I know other people have proposed factoring in tournament usage which is also a great idea especially for the lower tiers.

[Munya]

Its locked the moment I post the thread, its whenever I am available to do it a few days before changes actually go live to allow for discussion, we do not say a specific time for when it locks for a reason though so beyond that, that is all you will get.  Its not something that will change.

[gbwead]

15 minutes ago, Munya said:

Its locked the moment I post the thread, its whenever I am available to do it a few days before changes actually go live to allow for discussion, we do not say a specific time for when it locks for a reason though so beyond that, that is all you will get.  Its not something that will change.

I'm assuming the reason is because you don't want players to deliberately manipulate usage statistics by spamming certain mons at the end of each month. This concern is valid when it comes to UU usage because there aren't that many duels and someone could easily manipulate the data. However, when it comes to OU, the amount of duels played each month is so huge that anyone that tries to manipulate usage would cause as much disruption as a drop of water in the ocean.

This thread was posted when 15% of the month was not played yet. Every month is just like this one where a big chunk of usage data is disregarded and that's a shame. The reason for that is outdated and it makes little sense for OU usage to not be taken entirely into account when making usage movements.

[DoubleJ]

But also like, Munya has a life. We'd need Devs support to capture a usage snapshot at a specific time every month which I'm def in support of. We then make the changes based on that. 

 

This comment is in reply to gbwead and has nothing to do with ciaox and any response by ciaox may be disregarded. 

[gbwead]

4 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

But also like, Munya has a life. We'd need Devs support to capture a usage snapshot at a specific time every month which I'm def in support of. We then make the changes based on that. 

I don't think Devs involvement is required. Instead of announcing what is above/below a specific cutoff point, what should be announced instead is what is close to that specific cutoff point, what could end up above or below. Munya need to allow any TC members to open these threads, it really doesn't have to be him.

[Ziiiiio]

Yes, please let p2 down to UU, It will be a hard check of sun team venus, then drop torkoal to UU makes sense.