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April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread


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40 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I thought I'd make one final comment here alongside on Discord, I would propose the following solutions:

  • Increase the usage % to around 4.8-5% - even increasing it slightly will see a massive difference in the number of mons yo-yo-ing from UU and NU
  • Consider tournament usage from quarterfinals onwards

UU

  • Salamence - quickban (offensive uber)
  • Porygon2 - ban (offensive/defensive uber)
  • Milotic - nothing but this thing will be a huge pain in the ass
  • Jolteon - pressures offensive teams a lot but let's give this a chance

NU

  • Nidoqueen - quickban (offensive uber)
  • Cloyster - suspect test
  • Zoroark - this will be strong but I think we have the tools to cope with it and we had it in NU before (I think without Gigalith in the tier) - this is fine

I think a thread should be created for Cloyster and a vote placed on Nidoqueen and Salamence as soon as possible.

 

Shoutout to @PoseidonWrath for being the most transparent TC member, I'm sure you all do a great job but it would be nice to have more members be transparent about their discussions with us so we can help deliver our input if needed.

Well, about the suggestions: 

40 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I thought I'd make one final comment here alongside on Discord, I would propose the following solutions:

  • Increase the usage % to around 4.8-5% - even increasing it slightly will see a massive difference in the number of mons yo-yo-ing from UU and NU
  • Consider tournament usage from quarterfinals onwards

Cutoffs changes aren't really needed if we would only consider tournament usage. The reason is: From this round onwards, there is no Mememaker team anymore except if on finals both players agree on playing Metronome, LC, UT...

 

Discard Ladder usage and only consider tour usage would be a good solution. First months we can expect some chaos but it would stabilize quickly with a 4,36% usage for only one more season.

 

40 minutes ago, Imperial said:

UU

  • Salamence - quickban (offensive uber)
  • Porygon2 - ban (offensive/defensive uber)
  • Milotic - nothing but this thing will be a huge pain in the ass
  • Jolteon - pressures offensive teams a lot but let's give this a chance

 

Mence: No discussion. Ban

P2: I repeat if are necessary. Porygon2 is not a offensive uber. It wasn't in the past and no changes make it stronger offensively. PP nerf on Recovery weaken it defensively but the main problem is force you to trade mons and lose your main answer to a certain centralizing mon such as Shaymin or Crawdaunt.

Milotic: Not bannable and a good addition to metagaming as one extra answer to Crawdaunt. Not a counter, maybe a check?

Jolteon: Speed and Sp. Atk decent but poor bulk. A Glass cannon. 

 

NU i will not comment, only thing is if Vaporeon gets metagaing worse but don't get banned, NU players will need to tolerate it because with Milotic on UU, it will block Vaporeon to have usage enough to rise.

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I still believe we should once again return to our power-based tiering which we had in the past. It would surely give TC more work until all tiers are formed, but that way we would have stable tiers which we could shape the way we wish without usage yoyo-ing some mons.

1 hour ago, Imperial said:

I thought I'd make one final comment here alongside on Discord, I would propose the following solutions:

  • Increase the usage % to around 4.8-5% - even increasing it slightly will see a massive difference in the number of mons yo-yo-ing from UU and NU
  • Consider tournament usage from quarterfinals onwards

UU

  • Salamence - quickban (offensive uber)
  • Porygon2 - ban (offensive/defensive uber)
  • Milotic - nothing but this thing will be a huge pain in the ass
  • Jolteon - pressures offensive teams a lot but let's give this a chance

NU

  • Nidoqueen - quickban (offensive uber)
  • Cloyster - suspect test
  • Zoroark - this will be strong but I think we have the tools to cope with it and we had it in NU before (I think without Gigalith in the tier) - this is fine

I think a thread should be created for Cloyster and a vote placed on Nidoqueen and Salamence as soon as possible.

 

Edit - I believe that Sharpedo should be banned or at the minimum a thread be created. I think there is enough evidence that every set poses a huge threat to a large number of mons in the tier. I was wrong about Scrafty, this is fine.

 

Shoutout to @PoseidonWrath for being the most transparent TC member, I'm sure you all do a great job but it would be nice to have more members be transparent about their discussions with us so we can help deliver our input if needed.

+1 to this, so much. Agreed with everything said in that post.

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14 hours ago, Munya said:

Toxicroak - 6.01% usage in OU

I speak out of ignorance, I'm just getting into the UU... Does this make it debatable whether he remains crawdaunt or with poliwrath + mence (Defensive Set, bruh) he stays controlled in the tier?

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Well, sorry for some inactivity in these months, right now I will try to give a quick personal opinion of everything that goes down or up:

Toxicroak: I'm going to assume it goes up by rain spam with toxicroak and seismitoad, nothing to argue with this really

Seismitoad: Same as with Toxicroak

UU:

Ditto: I hope it goes down to NU even

Jolteon: 

Outside of the happiness that it gives me to know that this is finally the place where he belongs.

I really don't even consider it a problem, it's very hp reliant to hit ground types and in some matches you won't be able to do much if you choose the wrong hp, grass for swampert, ice for flygon, grass for gastrodon, ice for shaymin etc. Both are resisted by rotom heat, other than that we have very strong defensive stuff on the special side to support it (Snorlax, umbreon, gigalith) and things like lanturn or umbreon that can increase their usage because of that.
On the offensive side, we also have a way to revenge him while we have a krooko scarf to eliminate him without problems.

Milotic:

Empoleon is one of the most used and simply makes fun of him, shaymin in the same way, roserade can pressure him or configure spikes on him, jellicent is immune to scald and if he doesn't have toxic he can't touch him, we will have jolteon to pressure him offensively like rotom mow or defensive venusaur,  can also encourage the use of gastrodon, tentacruel or lanturn again it has the nerf pp as data.

Also to say that the flame orb set can eat a lot of chip damage when played and therefore is a bad idea

Salamence:

This is probably the biggest problem with the changes, but let's just say we never actually banned it, it went up automatically upon receipt of its hidden days before we made a decision on it.
We now have empoleon for a more responsive pick spec set, hippowdon for a mixed set or dd depending on the set, umbreon is still available to stop him on first impulse or count mixed salamence, swampert can take a hit from the dd and remove him from the move I would like to mention P2, but really his tenure in the tier is still uncertain, although Moxie can cause him to break salamence, I for one prefer to wait and see how it goes, I'm not a fan of quickban unless I want to feels really necessary so at least for now my decision is probably that this one stays until we see how it goes, maybe it's like staraptor it only took us a couple of days to decide it didn't belong in the UU. Probably the biggest problem is waiting for the set which will execute

Btw: I want to mention things like rhyperior/mandibuzz/ donphan that can hold up to the dragon dance set

NU:

Cloyster

I think that with this the truth I have more doubts than with Salamence, we have electrode and scrafty so a game of screens is really scary, the issue of their movements seems to me a disadvantage, but with the specific game you can eliminate a lot of things, I was trying to search for a specific account but its really tricky i only found quagsire but you may lose against some chosen raid set.
These are the ones that can sustain their hits at +2 normally

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 85-105 (42 - 51.9%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now remember this learns Missile Pin
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 170-210 (84.1 - 103.9%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

Bronzor:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 60-70 (36.5 - 42.6%) -- approx. 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 80-95 (48.7 - 57.9%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 2HKO
As long as I can only play it with psywave

 

qwilfish:
+1 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 85-105 (49.7 - 61.4%) -- approx. 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

In the same way, you can only do thunder wave or try to use toxic, casting mist alone would be a waste of time since it would boost the next turn in the same way.

hitmontop:
+1 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 110-135 (70 - 85.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers Recovery

But this one can't get a KO in return.

0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 80-96 (64 - 76.8%) -- 2HKO guaranteed

 

Finally, vaporeon needs a scalding burn to win, while alomomola if it lasts longer but can only pray a burn or throw a toxic at it and try to stall

 Its high defense allows it to take sucker punches from the likes of Absol Honchkrow, and even Hitmon's mach punches, only being taken out by Blaziken's vacuum wave

252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster on a critical hit: 69-82 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster on a critical hit: 67-81 (53.6 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 65-78 (52 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 73-88 (58.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

0 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 120-143 (96 - 114.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 

 

Btw can use ice shard in +2 

 

Vaporeon: This has been seen before

 

Nidoqueen: 

This one has the moveset to take out the entire level if he wanted to, he can even run a bulky set with moonlight to heal negligible damage, but offensive teams can push him a certain way, I'm very doubtful, I want to see. . him in action, my mind tells me that "Ban is too much for the tier", but I want to see at least a little bit of him.

 

In the same way, I am aware that we have many changes currently that are too chaotic, but it is normal that it happens when new things are added, we are still looking at how to handle the issue of uses. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Huargensy
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Now UU has Mandibuzz+hippowdon+milotic, also ditto. I think Haxorus is fine in this tier. I mean it's just a trash please let haxorus go to a tier which players can have a chance to use that mon xd

 

and Torkoal maybe go down as well? with Mandibuzz+porygon2+Empoleon it's enough to check Sunteam venusuar.

 

On 3/26/2023 at 4:44 AM, Justa102 said:

can crawdaunt go ou if toxicroak is going ou?

Bold salamence and shaymin can check it.

 

Even with ice beam craw, it will be still counter by bold shaymin.

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I will only give my personal point of view.

 

I don't find it necessary to upgrade Toxicroak and Seismitoad to OU.

 

The use of a pokemon in a tier depending on many factors, I don't believe it makes sense to only consider the percentage of use of these.

 

Currently, for sure, if there's one Pokemon to raise from UU to OU, it's Porygon2.

 

Regarding the pokemons that go down from OU to UU, I think the list is correct even if I have a slight doubt on Salamence. Also, I think it would be nice to give Haxorus a try in UU.

 

Regarding pokemon going down to NU, I find these changes interesting.

 

Defensive teams will recover some support, which will probably allow us to see some more diverse teams than at present.

 

 

Edited by Godhelll
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6 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Now UU has Mandibuzz+hippowdon+milotic, also ditto. I think Haxorus is fine in this tier. I mean it's just a trash please let haxorus go to a tier which players can have a chance to use that mon xd

 

and Torkoal maybe go down as well? with Mandibuzz+porygon2+Empoleon it's enough to check Sunteam venusuar.

 

we asked for it some time ago, nothing was even said. Drop haxorus, let's have fun. 

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Venomoth and Haxorus should both be retested. The metagame in NU and UU has changed so much that the reasoning behind those bans no longer applies. 

 

In NU, Venomoth now has to deal with Mantine Haze, Altaria Haze, Golbat Infiltrator, Unaware Clefable, Assault Vest mons, etc. We didn't even have Blaziken in NU when Venomoth got banned. In UU, Haxorus has to deal with all the new threats that dropped in the past years. Tbh, with some exceptions of course, the UU tier has so many mons from the pre-sinnoh OU meta and in that old OU meta, Haxorus was not viable. For instance, Milotic, Hippo, Cloyster, Jolteon and Salamence were all OU pre-sinnoh and participated in making Haxorus unviable. We also have new threats that would not be kind to Haxorus like Ditto.

 

The only reason I can see why they would not be retested is that the timing just sucks with all the movements already happening. Lower tiers are overwhelmed. 

 

Back in 2016, usage movements were happening every month. Every month, all the mons over 4.36% would go up and all the mons under 4.36% would go down. There was a lot of changes each month and a lot of yoyoing. The 3 months cycle system was put in place to reduce the amount of yoyoing, but by doing so the amount of changes on the third month are completly absurd. The cut-off points for the first and second months of the cycle are just way too high and way too low. In the past 7 years, there has been 0 movements during the 1st and 2nd month. The 3 months cycle system was never designed to prevent movements during the first and second month, it was designed to make movements more difficult for these months, but not impossible. Because those movements are impossible for the first months, when the third month arrives, players have to deal with all the movements that have been prevented all at once.

 

Most of the movements could have happened gradually from January to March and players would have been able to adapt more easily this way. Dropping everything at once every 3 months is very bad design. Do something @Munya. I have suggested to you so many solutions for this problem over the years, just pick one already. And if the solutions I suggested don't work, at least put in the effort of coming up with your own solutions.

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Since everyone does it I'll give my 2 cents about the tier shift too :


Quote

 

To OU from UU:

Toxicroak - 6.01% usage in OU

Seismitoad - 5.76% usage in OU

 

 

Nothing to say here.

Quote

 

To UU from OU:

Ditto - 4.23% usage in OU 
Jolteon - 3.69% Usage in OU
Milotic - 3.75% Usage in OU
Salamence - 4.08% Usage in OU

 

 

Additionally a vote has been requested for the Porygon2 test so we should see a conclusion that that this month whichever way the vote ends up.

Ditto is whatever, Jolteon Milotic and Salamence are good additions to the UU tier, lets just try that and see how it goes.

 

Quote

 

To NU from UU:

Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU
Gastrodon - 3.90% Usage in UU
Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU
Tentacruel - 3.63% Usage in UU
Vaporeon - 2.89% Usage in UU
Zoroark - 4.02% Usage in UU

 

 

Cloyster is probably too good offensively as well as Nidoqueen. Zoroark looks scary. The rest seems fine. I don't think any quickban is needed, too many changes at the same time, let's just wait a month and see what happens, if stuff are too good they can still be banned.

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On 3/26/2023 at 10:08 AM, Munya said:

 

To OU from UU:

Toxicroak - 6.01% usage in OU

Seismitoad - 5.76% usage in OU

No comment

 

On 3/26/2023 at 10:08 AM, Munya said:

 

To UU from OU:

Ditto - 4.23% usage in OU

Jolteon - 3.69% Usage in OU

Milotic - 3.75% Usage in OU

Salamence - 4.08% Usage in OU

 

Jolteon/Milotic finally dropped after many years, so its deserved to see how they will do.

Ditto can be good in every tier so thats interesting for him to drop, thought he will be popular in OU

Salamence is something im not sure about. We got a milotic/empoleon now to pressure it, and ofc the usual mons that handled it before like umbreon. so imo it can be tested

 

On 3/26/2023 at 10:08 AM, Munya said:

To NU from UU:

Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU

Gastrodon - 3.90% Usage in UU

Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU

Tentacruel - 3.63% Usage in UU

Vaporeon - 2.89% Usage in UU

Zoroark - 4.02% Usage in UU

 

 

Nido should be instantly banned and not considerd to drop. Its movepool +sheer force is to insane and it will completly nuke the meta


Some examples:

 

Quote

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 95-113 (47 - 55.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 95-113 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 161-190 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 91-109 (45 - 53.9%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 91-109 (45 - 53.9%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 151-182 (78.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 86-101 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 86-101 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 73-86 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 73-86 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 78-94 (43 - 51.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 78-94 (43 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

As u guys can see with stealth rocks it can legit destroy anything on his path

As far as i can see only a fully special defensive Dusknoir can wall it. if i missed some calcs let me know tho, did these really quick.

Feel free to defend Nido and provide me calcs, but how i am seeing it rn, it wont touch NU for a while

 

Gastro/Tenta/Zoro i dont mind.

 

Vaporeon should be a interesting one, i see people complaining about him being a really uber defensive wall. Well i disagree. we have mantine for example completly denying it. Clefable. AV eelektross. Slowking, Lanturn, Sceptile, Ludicolo Altaria etc etc etc i can continue all day.

Its forced to run Toxic to win vs such matchups, but then it wont have Haze/Healbell which is kinda a core moveslot for Vaporeon.

 

Cloyster imo should get tested, we have alot of mons that dropped that can wall it, and ofc certain mons like Slowbro/Quak denying Cloyster to set up. I do believe it will be played Choicebanded which can be a good set on him.

Edited by PoseidonWrath
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Damn. A wallbreaker beats walls. Who would have thought? In other news, water is wet. (Except Volcanion. It's a gas)

What are these calcs supposed to show? That Nidoqueen, a wallbreaker, indeed breaks walls? How does it do against Offense? How easily can it actually shift momentum versus those walls? How easily can it exert pressure on offensive threats?

Maybe Nidoqueen is indeed busted, but these calcs tell me absolutely nothing except that a wallbreak is really able to break walls.

 

Next. Why are you obliged to follow the usage, at all, when the tiers are a mess, when UU is in such a chaotic place that it lost 10 different Pokemon to NU in the span of 2 months? Why are you dropping anything at all, independently of how busted or not it is? What about let the tiers stabilize even in the slightest before just collapse everything at once, for no reason other than to further kill these lower tiers? 

 

Will you fix it? No, you won't. Otherwise, you'd start now, which is fairly obvious you aren't doing. You keep pushing responsibilities for the next month. It has been almost half an year where NU and UU are at their lowest points ever, only second to when Dugtrio was allowed in NU. Are you expecting to accomplish, by just nuking 5-6 different things at the same time, that by some divine miracle, it fixes the tier? 

Even worse than that. Half of these things that are about to potentially drop, please take a closer look at what they are, are all a direct influence to the sudden rise of Toxicroak in UU, mostly due to both Feraligatr and Crawdaunt gaining access to their HA. 

 

Finally, why are people in this game consistently mentioning defensive answers to potentially uber defensive walls? What in hell is this argument? A Pokemon cannot be uber defensive, because it is walled ???????????????????????? Excuse me, what? I don't care what defensive answers deny a defensive threat, not even in the slightest. I care how many offensive Pokemon that defensive thread handles, how many it doesn't, in what circumstances it does and does not. Unfortunately it is not the first time a defensive behemoth that completely centralizes the tier is deemed fine just because other defensive pokemon handle it. 

 

Is Vaporeon indeed uber defensive? I don't know, and after reading your justification, I know the exact jackass nothing, except that another defensive Pokemon handles it??? Justifying a defensive threat by not even speaking about offense is, by itself, laughable in way too many ways. (Oh, and I can't wait for the : B-but Sceptile and Eel handle it. Nice. 2 out of how many?)

 

Note I am not necessarily against or for some specific decisions. I am against the fact people are unable to actually come up with their decisions, and think it is wiser to just come up with random nonsense facts that have nothing to do with their arguments, just to show they are clueless to whatever they talk about. 

 

Tierings aside. Can we really just ignore usage for the time being and stop murdering NU for no reason other than to feel obliged to follow a policy that has been outdated ever since 1535?

 

End of rant. Thanks for putting up with my bs.

Edited by pachima
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A wallbreaker like Nidoqueen is exactly what NU needs right now. The tier is just a borefest with people spamming the same stall core Quagsire Clefable Bronzor Sableye Altaria Filler. And Vaporeon the Uber Defensive is dropping too :')

 

It's worth testing something that might make this tier more enjoyable to play. If it ends up being broken against every other playstyle, it gets banned. 

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Let me make it clear for both of you:
 

4 hours ago, pachima said:

Damn. A wallbreaker beats walls. Who would have thought?

Maybe Nidoqueen is indeed busted, but these calcs tell me absolutely nothing except that a wallbreak is really able to break walls.

This post is extremely wrong and stupid. When a mon is suspected to have OFFENSIVE UBER characteristics, you should look at the walls it breaks. 

 

6 hours ago, PoseidonWrath said:

Vaporeon should be a interesting one, i see people complaining about him being a really uber defensive wall. Well i disagree. we have mantine for example completly denying it. Clefable. AV eelektross. Slowking, Lanturn, Sceptile, Ludicolo Altaria etc etc etc i can continue all day.

Its forced to run Toxic to win vs such matchups, but then it wont have Haze/Healbell which is kinda a core moveslot for Vaporeon.

This post is mostly wrong. When a mon is suspected to have DEFENSIVE UBER characteristics, you should look at the offensive threats it denies. Clefable, Slowking, Lanturn and Altaria are hardly relevant when analysing the defensive characteristics of a pokemon.

 

 

 

 

With that being said, @pachima, you can't really complain that Wrath is wrong to look at defensive mons as counters to a potential defensive uber pokemon because 
1) you did the exact same thing in your previous paragraph when an offensive pokemon was being looked at

2) you fucked up royally when you were TC and banned P2 as offensive uber instead of simply defensive uber

You can't cast stones at people when you are showing the worst example of what should not be done. You can't blame new TC members for not understanding our tiering terms correctly when you have set an awful precedent when using them in the past.

Edited by gbwead
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On 3/26/2023 at 11:36 AM, Imperial said:

Shoutout to @PoseidonWrath for being the most transparent TC member, I'm sure you all do a great job but it would be nice to have more members be transparent about their discussions with us so we can help deliver our input if needed.

Hey you nerd, I post a lot too.

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On 3/26/2023 at 2:44 PM, Munya said:

 

 

BL1            
Darmanitan Dugtrio Haxorus Lucario Porygon-Z Staraptor  

 

 

BL2

         
Durant Feraligatr Machamp Rhyperior Roserade Venomoth

Fera and Machamp are not BL2. They got moved up when Fera gained Sheer Force and Machamp learned Mach/Drain Punch. The same thing happened with Salamence, it got moved up. It's not on the BL1 list.

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Just now, Munya said:

You are correct about machamp from the looks of it will have to dig more to find out but gatr was actually quickbanned.

There is no reason for Gatr to be quickbanned and for Salamence to be moved up. It's the exact same situation. 

 

Now if Gatr were too drop to NU, I think TC could absolutely quick ban Gatr, but no reason to make the BL2 list longer for no reason in the meantime.

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6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What's the protocol for a mon to be removed from the BL list?


Venomoth was banned from NU on the 29th of July, 2018.

Kingdra was banned from UU on the 26th of August, 2018.

 

It doesn't make sense for Kingdra to have been removed from the BL list while Venomoth has remained there.

I don't think there's a written protocol, but there likely should be. I think we would first agree that a vote should take place after discussing internally and reviewing public forum discussion, vote, and then if released, open a suspect test for the newly released mon.

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6 hours ago, gbwead said:

With that being said, @pachima, you can't really complain that Wrath is wrong to look at defensive mons as counters to a potential defensive uber pokemon because 
1) you did the exact same thing in your previous paragraph when an offensive pokemon was being looked at

2) you fucked up royally when you were TC and banned P2 as offensive uber instead of simply defensive uber

You can't cast stones at people when you are showing the worst example of what should not be done. You can't blame new TC members for not understanding our tiering terms correctly when you have set an awful precedent when using them in the past.

This is weird. I usually really like your posts but you kind of deviated at the end here. No need to go after Pachi's character or whatever decisions they made as TC. Not relevant to any productive discussion. 

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5 hours ago, drewq said:

This is weird. I usually really like your posts but you kind of deviated at the end here. No need to go after Pachi's character or whatever decisions they made as TC. Not relevant to any productive discussion. 

I apologize, this was not my primary intent.

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