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April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread


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10 hours ago, Imperial said:

Can't wait for TC to announce that they're keeping p2 in UU alongside dropping down Haxorus and Salamence.

 

Why don't you guys also reintroduce PZ, Staraptor and Lucario into the tier? 

If only Lucario had lower usage...

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On 3/28/2023 at 8:05 PM, Imperial said:

My predictions:

 

Salamence - suspect test, eventually getting banned(?)
Haxorus - suspect test, eventually getting banned(?)

Cloyster - suspect test, will probably be fine for the tier or move up to UU

Nidoqueen - quickban

Venomoth - unban

Sharpedo - ban

Porygon2 - ban

I feel that Sharpedo gets a pretty big nerf with the addition of Vaporeon

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于2023/3/29 AM6点13分,VelociRaptorr 说:

Toxicroak is needed in UU in order to stop Crawdaunt. With the release of Toxicroak it is mandatory to have a Poliwrath in the team. And have you thought about nerfing the weather turns? Just like they did with Stall's movements.

This is correct if Shaymin and salamence get banned. We might need croak back if there is any change on those two.

 

Salamence can obviestly wall CB craw, and if later meta change Craw to lo+ice beam then Shaymin can wall it completely.

  This is mix craw and we can tell it imposible to go 252 atk+252 spa, just show the worst situation.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recove

252 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

  And CB craw:

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 

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2 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Esto es correcto si Shaymin y Salamence son baneados. Es posible que necesitemos croar si hay algún cambio en esos dos.

 

Salamence obviamente puede hacer wall a CB Craw, y si luego meta cambia a Craw a Lo+ice Beam, entonces Shaymin puede wallearlo por completo.

  Esta es una combinación de craw y podemos decir que es imposible ir a 252 atk + 252 spa, solo muestra la peor situación.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 3HKO garantizado después de la recuperación de Leftovers

252 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 57.8% de probabilidad de 2HKO después de la recuperación de Leftovers

  Y CB buche:

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 45.7% de probabilidad de 2HKO después de la recuperación de Leftovers 

-1 252+ Atk Choice Banda Adaptabilidad Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- garantizado 3HKO 

you must use salamence with intimidate, bold and lose all offensive potential

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On 3/29/2023 at 5:21 PM, drewq said:

If you've watched high level UU a very common gamestate is the dance trying to remove Poliwrath in order to activate Crawdaunt. I wouldn't go as far as saying it's "broken" but it is as centralizing as it can get. Despite this I see it is as somewhat of a necessary evil given how dominant stall can be in UU. 

 

That used to be true but they dropped Shaymin and Venusaur last month and that completely changed Crawdaunt's situation
This would be relevant 1 month ago

 

20 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

They got completely outclassed by being water resists/immunities that are not a Crawdaunt counter/check.

This is very true but that's the exact reason why we have tiers.
UU exists because all of these mons are heavily outclassed by similar mons in OU.
It is the natural outcome that all these water resists that lose to Crawdaunt, Feral & Sharpedo end up being unviable in UU and drop. At least imo

Tldr; there's no argument for banning Crawdaunt right now. There used to be many in February tho. If any OU dragons end up dropping it'll be even less of an issue

Edited by TohnR
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Sounds like folks in the community would be ok with Salamence being tested in UU then. Moxie doesn't seem to be that big an issue. Only counter argument was not having Mamoswine available, but that might lead to increased usage of Vanilluxe, Sneasel, or even Piloswine as quick checks for an offensive variant. Not sure how realistic that is, but could be seen. 

 

Hippowdon is another option that could see more usage as it's currently bridging NU right now. 

Edited by DoubleJ
To change confusing language
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14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Sounds like folks in the community would be ok with Salamence being tested in UU then.

? I see quite the opposite

14 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Moxie doesn't seem to be that big an issue.

Moxie never was the issue. Mixed set was, and nothing changed in the tier to stop that one set.

 

15 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Only counter argument was not having Mamoswine available

Only? How is it the only, and what have you discussed, if you have discussed at all. Transparency please.

15 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

but that might lead to increased usage of Vanilluxe, Sneasel, or even Piloswine as quick checks for an offensive variant. Not sure how realistic that is, but could be seen. 

If by any chance any of these irrelevant things rise because of Salamence alone, then it goes to show how centralizing this beast is. Plus, Sneasel and Vanilluxe are completely useless in a tier where Empoleon is one of the most common Pokemon used. Lastly, none of those 3 are able to switch against Salamence, no matter what the situation is. 

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24 minutes ago, pachima said:

? I see quite the opposite

Moxie never was the issue. Mixed set was, and nothing changed in the tier to stop that one set.

In this discussion thread? The only counter argument proposed was by @Imperial who stated that Mamoswine going up could be a problem. Otherwise there were three posts saying "quick ban" and a larger number of others saying to suspect test. Our last suspect test was interrupted by the introduction of Moxie and Salamence moving up naturally. As of right now, there is consensus among the TC that we should resume the suspect test and not quick ban it to BL1.

 

24 minutes ago, pachima said:

 

Only? How is it the only, and what have you discussed, if you have discussed at all. Transparency please.

I've been pretty transparent lately.

 

24 minutes ago, pachima said:

If by any chance any of these irrelevant things rise because of Salamence alone, then it goes to show how centralizing this beast is. Plus, Sneasel and Vanilluxe are completely useless in a tier where Empoleon is one of the most common Pokemon used. Lastly, none of those 3 are able to switch against Salamence, no matter what the situation is. 

Salamence will be centralizing and we will need to monitor it. And I agree, they are terrible answers but Ice Shard is an easy option so you might see more usage. I look forward to Donphan being played more readily though.

 

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Is there any chance we can drop Pz to UU ? empo got roost, gigalith still here, bronzong is already played, faster mon are dropping in the tier to revenge kill it, assault vest is now available, UU got a big amount of strong priority. 

Also with the introduction of sinnoh for "spring 2023" will we get another 3 month without movement because of new thing that can come in the game with it ? since i guess we will have a new legendary and a bunch of new HA or even maybe new item who knows

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On 3/29/2023 at 7:05 AM, LeJovi said:

Not true. Defensive shaymin aswell as salamence walls it completely. But is it healthy for a tier if you HAVE to run an specific pokemon/team composition to not get swept by another?

I don't think so. 

You see why i sayed on past that P2 is bannable just because he forces trades? On UU you had to run specific mons to answer certain centralizing things, not only Crawdaunt but also Shaymin is on list and Salamence in 2 days. Your teambuild are restricted as ... and you can't trade your poliwrath on a match, otherwise crawdaunt sweep your team, for example. 

 

Thankfully that duck was banned. Maybe P-Z can be tested now? Their premier check, Empoleon, returned to metagaming. Also, Machamp and Crawdaunt can do something? I didn't calc yet. Both can't really switch but if they come from a slow pivots can use their prioritys since P-Z's bulk is weak.

Edited by caioxlive13
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  • Munya locked this topic
  • Munya unlocked this topic

Re-opened temporarily, lets assume that both the current pending OU and UU bans go through, what are opinions on freezing the seasonal usage movements until next month?

 

Other options being just doing the movement normally or giving TC the option to maybe veto some usage based movements during this change.

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1 minute ago, Munya said:

Re-opened temporarily, lets assume that both the current pending OU and UU bans go through, what are opinions on freezing the seasonal usage movements until next month?

As it stands, this is currently what would be moving up and down respectively:

 

image.png.a0718e1f504712a4051e8fe36a922c21.png

 

Once again, look at the number of Pokemon which will be moving up and down from UU and NU. Once again, look at how Tentacruel rises to UU and Druddigon/Gligar drop down to NU.

 

Freezing the tier changes will only delay the inevitable, may I please ask what is the hold up for the devs implementing the solution to all this - increasing the usage % from 4.36% and potentially considering other factors as well?

 

This may also help with the issue which will come when more HAs and legendaries are implemented in the next update.

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Raising the usage % is just going to change the bar, instead of stuff hovering around 4.36% changing every 3 months, stuff hovering around whatever % we change to will change every 3 months.  Split cutoffs is how you deal with that but I haven't been given a good answer as to what they should be.

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Just now, Munya said:

Raising the usage % is just going to change the bar, instead of stuff hovering around 4.36% changing every 3 months, stuff hovering around whatever % we change to will change every 3 months.  Split cutoffs is how you deal with that but I haven't been given a good answer as to what they should be.

Generally a lot of Pokemon tend to edge around below 5%, the people abusing the system trying to deliberately move a Pokemon out of a certain tier can be caught out and looked into like you do with matchfixing, etc with exceptions being if people want to try a new trend of course (e.g. Introducing Seismitoad into OU).

 

I like the idea of being able to veto certain Pokemon, but then I assume TC will have to create a discussion thread, wait a whole for the process to take in effect etc. 

 

The only Pokemon in that list which seems to be an issue is Venusaur, some people are also saying Gigalith in NU. I just find two things really annoying:

  • The number of Pokemon which keep on rising and dropping between UU and NU, whilst although dealing with Nidoqueen and Vaporeon, not concluding some other Pokemon which are problematic (e.g. Shaymin in UU and Scrafty/Sharpedo in NU).
  • The number of times a Pokemon keeps on yo-yoing between UU and NU - I can confirm that Tentacruel/Gligar/Druddigon have moved up and down between tiers at least four times now.

4.36% used to be a viable percentile when the ladder was a lot more active, but when one of the UU seasonal tournaments didn't even completely fill, the biggest automated tournament in the game, that should tell you about the state of laddering and statistics overall.

 

Please address this as soon as possible, the tiers are already a shitfest and it'll only keep getting worse.

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If they veto something at least in this particular case it won't be a ban, just a temporary stop since I assume Shaymins existence had at least a minimal effect on Venusaur since its another strong grass type in the tier?  To maybe give it time to pick back up some of its momentum or give us time to discuss the eventuality where it might drop.

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2 hours ago, Munya said:

Re-opened temporarily, lets assume that both the current pending OU and UU bans go through, what are opinions on freezing the seasonal usage movements until next month?

 

Other options being just doing the movement normally or giving TC the option to maybe veto some usage based movements during this change.

"Freezing the seasonal usage movements until the next month" there hasn't been a single usage movement in the last 5 years that didn't occur on the third month of each cycle. Freezing usage movements is the most stupid and useless idea ever. Why would you freeze usage movements when there is no movement to begin with? 1.7% and 6.7% cutoff points are so outrageously low and high that nothing ever moves. Then on the third month, everything goes to shit because everything moves up and down freely.

 

You need to bring the 1.7% cutoff point closer to 4.36% and the 6.7% cutoff point closer to 4.36% as well, so we can finally have movements that respond to meta changes and adaptation. Our usage system is garbage and the idea of freezing movements is one of the worst thing that could ever happen. Please stop entertaining such an horrible idea.

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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4 minutes ago, Munya said:

1.7 and 6.7 usage movements don't exist anymore so not sure why you are mentioning those, it would use normal cutoffs next month if it was frozen this month.

1afe53d78b0ffbe8e04a977a859b6089.png

1.7% and 6.7% are mentionned in the tiering policy. I have no clue what you are talking about. 

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

1afe53d78b0ffbe8e04a977a859b6089.png

1.7% and 6.7% are mentionned in the tiering policy. I have no clue what you are talking about. 

Woops, forgot to update it when I made the announcement that that is not how it works anymore.  That said, I am stating, and have stated before that that isn't a thing anymore.

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Just now, Munya said:

 

"Upon request by the Tier Council we will be trying a season where we do not have usage based movements during the first 2 months of a season and the last month will currently have the old cutoff of 4.36% but we are open for discussion on changing the cutoffs for that."

That was an announcement about testing the very stupid idea of freezing. The idea is now tested. It sucked as expected. How exactly did that stupid idea become a permanent change? The announcement clearly states that this would only apply to "a" season, to a singular season. It's over now.

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