[UU Discussion] Salamence

[DoubleJ]

  

  

 

What is this?

 

This thread is being opened to discuss Salamence being added to the UU tier by usage. Salamence has once again fallen below the 4.36% cut-off allowed. Salamence will be considered for a possible ban to Borderline 1 using a suspect test.

 

What to know?

 

As with any pseudo-legendary, Salamence has significantly high stats which automatically positions it as a threat. Its typing and ability (Intimidate) allow for relatively easy defensive switches that allow it to take advantage of its impressive offensive stats and movepool. Now with access to Moxie, it can more readily function as a sweeper (Choice Scarf, Dragon Dance), as well as a classic wallbreaker (MixMence, Choice Band) or a defensive pivot (Defog). Its movepool creates nearly unopposed coverage and it can even heal with Roost. It has very few flaws, although notably a 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks and a weakness to Stealth Rocks.

 

Downsides include a reliance on powerful Special Attacks with mediocre accuracy like STAB Draco Meteor and Hurricane, as well as underpowered Physical Attacks like Dragon Claw, Brick Break, and Rock Slide. Unfortunately, Mamoswine recently moved up to OU by usage and now the tier is left with few viable Ice Shard users. Fortunately, there are still faster threats that could revenge kill and strong defensive mons that can slow it down.

 

In OU, Salamence was largely displaced by a faster and more versatile Garchomp. In UU, its speed would be less a problem and more an advantage. It's versatility would be unrivaled and would be considered very dangerous for the tier.

 

Noteworthy sets?

 

Choice Scarf/Choice Band: Dragon Claw, Rock Slide, Brick Break, EQ/Flamethrower/Fire Blast (Jolly or Naive Nature)

MixMence: Draco Meteor, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Brick Break, Roost/Rock Slide/EQ (Naive Nature with Life Orb or Dragon Gem)

Defensive: Dragon Pulse, Flamethrower, Roost, Defog (Timid or Bold Nature with Leftovers or Rocky Helmet)

 

Notable Checks or Counters?

 

Empoleon

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 172-203 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 130-153 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 180-212 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Spiritomb

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 64-75 (40.7 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 121-142 (77 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 102-120 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (with attack investment)

4 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 84-100 (49.4 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (without attack investment)

Donphan

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 192-227 (97.4 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 58-70 (29.4 - 35.5%) -- 16% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 88-104 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 112-136 (65.8 - 80%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Swampert

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 99-118 (47.8 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 99-118 (47.8 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Swampert Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Salamence: 160-192 (94.1 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Swampert Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Salamence: 100-120 (58.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Bronzong

Spoiler

0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (79 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 49-58 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 43-51 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 78-94 (44.8 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Gigalith

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 122-146 (63.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 74-87 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 71-86 (36.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gigalith Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 144-168 (84.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Hippowdon

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Hippowdon: 133-156 (61.8 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Hippowdon: 71-86 (33 - 40%) -- 80.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 132-156 (77.6 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Umbreon

Spoiler

252 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 102-120 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 84-99 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 78-94 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 88-107 (43.5 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 86-101 (42.5 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Crobat

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 153-183 (79.6 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Crobat: 99-117 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 76-90 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Slowbro

Spoiler

0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 164-196 (96.4 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 61-73 (35.8 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 62-74 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 153-183 (75.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Tentacruel

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Tentacruel: 113-134 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 136-164 (80 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252- SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tentacruel: 91-109 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 179-213 (95.7 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

Gligar

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 107-126 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 47-56 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 120-143 (69.7 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Dusclops

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 52-62 (35.3 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 51-60 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Vaporeon

Spoiler

0 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 176-208 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 133-157 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 90-107 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Jellicent

Spoiler

0 SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 144-172 (84.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 125-148 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 83-99 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Rhyperior

Spoiler

4 Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 182-216 (107 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 144-168 (84.7 - 98.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rhyperior: 133-157 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 74-87 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- 15% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 70-84 (31.5 - 37.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 226-269 (101.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

*Life Orb was used most commonly in calcs, although may not be representative of what will be most commonly used. EV spreads were made to show the extremes and likely do not represent actual usage. Life Orb damage represents a medium for non-boosted attacks and attacks boosted with a Gem or Choice Band/Moxie-Boost/Choice Specs.

 

 

Please discuss.

[Umbramol]

Good to have you back. We will enjoy your stay 

[DoubleJ]

3 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

Good to have you back. We will enjoy your stay 

Defensive 'mence smiles

[Umbramol]

5 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Defensive 'mence smiles

Every mence set will be useful in the tier, versatile threat,we have proven in the past that it is able to be managed by a handful of walls. Solid defensive cores have ways of dealing with it while it has the ability to outmaneuver them with the many possible sets it can run. It is mostly problematic against offense as it was before. Dd set can sweep offensive cores while special set is difficult to switch into. But it being an offensive threat on its own gives the opportunity to offense to have this threat on its side aswell. 

[VelociRaptorr]

With Toxicroak in OU, it forces mostly salamence with intimidate and a defensive set.

[RysPicz]

Last time it was UU, surprisingly, I found specs Mence being most useful in UU. Hurricane, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor- all got high base power and if there is no Umbreon (only mon which comes to my mind), it can easily start blasting everything away, while finding lots of opportunities to switch in thanks to Intimidate. I guess Moxie can change things a lot in here and the tier isn't in the same shape it was few months ago, but I believe it still might be a very decent set (which I feel was not mentioned enough in this thread).

Just food for thoughts, I'm curious how it will turn out myself

[TohnR]

15 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Last time it was UU, surprisingly, I found specs Mence being most useful in UU. Hurricane, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor- all got high base power and if there is no Umbreon (only mon which comes to my mind), it can easily start blasting everything away, while finding lots of opportunities to switch in thanks to Intimidate. I guess Moxie can change things a lot in here and the tier isn't in the same shape it was few months ago, but I believe it still might be a very decent set (which I feel was not mentioned enough in this thread).

Just food for thoughts, I'm curious how it will turn out myself

I believe the reason why people aren't bringing Specs mence up too much is because it wasn't necessarily broken back then (except for the fact it was actually too hard to revenge kill but that's about all Salamences sets) and it has even less chances of being problematic in this new metagame (Empo). 
To be fair, I believe the best set used to be Life Orb Mence with the 3 moves you mentionned and Roost. Still Timid Mence most of the time.

While it had great damages, there were a few mons that are able to switch in (Jellicent, Umbreon, Snorlax, Vapo, Gigalith & more) without fearing too much from a possible physical hit but it was indeed not so easy to play around before knowing what set the Mence had, especially since Dragon Dance and Choice Band were also used a fair bit.
Overall the special variant of Mence is now much worse due to how high usage spedef Empoleon has (which this set cannot touch).

Thankfully or sadly, Mence has solutions for it such as running a mixed set with Earthquake or Brick Breaker, or just pairing with the allmightly Magneton that has done a big come back in the meta. Those coverage options would also help Salamence inflict higher damages to other checks such as Tentacruel, Gigalith or Heatproof Bronzong. However that would imply either sacrifying Wallbreaking potential from Hurricane or longevity from Roost. 

I believe in Special oriented Mence viability in this metagame but I don't think it has potential to become the most problematic Mence set
What should be gathered from this is that while certain mons could be good answers to physical Moxie Salamence, we have to take into account the uncertainty of the set that Salamence could run as mixed and special oriented variants are viable enough to be seen in high level competitive play. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by TohnR

[DoubleJ]

Looking good so far. 

[LeJovi]

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Looking good so far. 

Ngl I think UU is in between a fine line of being broken or being pretty good. Every style is viable rn I'd say. 

Shaymin and Mence the more scary mons since they can run literally any set and remain really good, but other than that it looks okay-ish. 

[Necroze]

so this is the garchomp version of UU? xd

[DoubleJ]

After a one month review, Salamence appears to fit well within the UU tier and the TC has voted to close this thread.