[NU Discussion] Vaporeon

[PoseidonWrath]

 

 

 

 

 

What is this?

 

This thread is being opened to discuss Vaporeon being added to the NU tier by usage. Vaporeon has fallen below the 4.36% cut-off allowed. Vaporeon will be considered for a possible ban to Borderline 2.

 

About Vaporeon:

As soon as Vaporeon dropped to NU by usage, its presence in the tier has been felt. Currently, ranked as the 11th most played pokemon (13.56% usage) with an impressive 57.61% win rate, Vaporeon seems to be thriving. Thanks to its enormous 130 HP base stat paired with a respectable 95 SpDef base stat and a good 110 SpAtk base stat, Vaporeon - commonly played as a wall - can easily afford to invest most of its EVs in Defense. This stat distribution allows Vaporeon to wall off a good portion of the physical and special threats in the metagame simultaneously.

On top of that, Vaporeon’s Water Absorb ability could be seen as a great asset in the tier. Out of the 40 NU pokemon by usage (above 4.36%), 11 are water types (Cloyster, Vaporeon, Mantine, Quagsire, Azumarill, Tentacruel, Slowbro, Qwilfish, Sharpedo, Slowking & Lanturn). Thanks to its ability and typing, Vaporeon is usually not directly threatened by these pokemons while being able to threaten most of them on top of the rest of the tier with a potential burn from Scald. When it comes to its movepool, Vaporeon is quite predictable despite having a lot of options. When it’s played as a wall, Vaporeon is almost always played with these 3 moves: Wish, Protect and Scald. The last move varies a lot based on the teambuild, but it’s possible to narrow it down to these common options: Toxic, Haze, Calm Mind, Heal Bell, Baton Pass, Ice Beam, Roar, etc. Therefore, we can expect Vaporeon to provide a lot of support to teams, but this comes at the cost of being susceptible to Toxic and potential set up mons depending on its set. 

 

As a reference point for whoever might be unfamiliar with Vaporeon, here are some some sample sets.

 

Defensive/Support:

Spoiler

Vaporeon @ Leftovers

Bold / Calm Nature    

Ability: Water Absorb  

- Scald

- Wish

- Protect

- Haze / Toxic / Heal Bell / Calm Mind / Ice Beam / Baton Pass / Roar

Offensive:

Spoiler

Vaporeon @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry

Timid / Modest Nature    

Ability: Water Absorb  

- Scald / Surf

- Stored Power / Copycat / Synchronoise / Toxic / Ice Beam

- Substitute / Rest / Hidden Power 

- Calm Mind

Support:

Spoiler

Vaporeon @ Leftovers

Timid / Bold / Calm Nature    

Ability: Water Absorb  

- Substitute / Aqua Ring / 

- Baton Pass

- Scald

- Toxic / Protect

Important note: A lot changed since the last time Vaporeon was NU, it did not have access to Calm Mind, Recovery Moves had 16 PP, etc.

The tier council suspects Vaporeon might fit some Uber characteristics and/or is unhealthy for NU. Your input on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

Personally i believe Vaporeon is to much for NU, although I look forward to the discussion.

 

Give us your input and discuss!

 

Spoiler

Thanks to @gbweadfor making the thread

 

 

[Necroze]

No again 🥲

[DoubleJ]

Overall Vaporeon is an outstanding wall and paired well with Nidoqueen, which was proven to be too effective at breaking walls. With Nidoqueen gone, it will be interesting to see how impressive Vaporeon truly is, knowing Vaporeon is reasonably one-dimensional. My gestalt is that it's just fine in the NU tier and offers a unique niche with Wish-Baton Passing that is superior to Wish-Teleport Clefable.

[gbwead]

I'm personally extremely concerned about the following set:

Quote

Vaporeon @ Leftovers  
Ability: Water Absorb  
Level: 50  
EVs: 244 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe  
Bold Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Scald  
- Calm Mind  
- Wish  
- Protect

Pretty much any wall can just come on this Vaporeon and Toxic it. However, Offense doesn't have that really have good answers for a set like this.

 

For instance, if Timid Sceptile Life Orb switches into a Calm Mind from Vaporeon, this is what to expect:

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Giga Drain vs. +1 244 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 101-120 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The problem with this calc is that Sceptile needs a crit to win there, but the odds are pretty bad.

 

For the sake of the argument, let's assume the Sceptile player is amazing at predicting and never wastes a single PP of Giga Drain into a Protect, this would mean that after 16 Giga Drain the Sceptile player would have had 49.39% chance to get at least one crit. 

 

On top of that, a crit would not even be a guaranteed KO: 252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon on a critical hit: 226-268 (95.7 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. So basically, Sceptile would have a 37.04% chance to kill Vaporeon if Sceptile manages to land 16 Giga Drain on Vaporeon.

 

Realistically, Sceptile will not be able to land 16 Giga Drain on Vaporeon, some of the Giga Drain PP will be blocked by Protect. Here is a table of the chance for Sceptile to kill Vaporeon with Giga Drain depending on the number of times it was able to land a Giga Drain:

 

# of Giga Drain	Chance to KO
16	37.04%
15	35.39%
14	33.67%
13	31.87%
12	30.00%
11	28.04%
10	26.00%
9	23.87%
8	21.64%
7	19.32%
6	16.90%
5	14.38%
4	11.74%
3	8.99%
2	6.12%
1	3.13%
0	0.00%

 

Ofc, Sceptile could play a Leech Seed set or a SD Lum Berry set, but those are not that common. The common sets of other offensive mons like Eelektross, Scrafty, Rotom-Fan and Ludicolo also lose to the Vaporeon I linked. Imo, Lilligant looks like currently the best answer for offense vs Vaporeon, but strangely its usage drop since last season. I don't have an explanation for that, but if someone has one please share.

 

I'm trying to stay open minded and maybe with time offensive mons will adapt their sets to deal with Vaporeon, but so far Vaporeon has been a dominating force.

 

Edit: Perhaps with time mons like Lapras and Jynx will gain more usage. Also, since the drop of Salamence in UU, Poliwrath dropped in usage significantly. I wouldn't be that surprised if it drops to NU next season. 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by gbwead

[ArtOfKilling]

Finally. Thank you to @TierCouncil for opening a discussion thread. As I've said previously on the NU Tier Discussion Thread:

 

Vaporeon is a really bulky phys wall in both defense and special defense too with only 2 weaknesses which are Electric and Grass. As you can see it has higher HP and Special Defense Stat when compared to Quagsire which is a common Physical Wall in NU. Comparing Vaporeon's situation in NU and UU is very simple. As I said it can only be pressured by Electric and Grass mons which we suffer from a shortage in NU, Unlike UU which has options both offensive and defensive options which can come take A Scald or a Toxic from Vaporeon with the ability of either 1 shotting it or pressuring it to switch out. Examples: Venusaur,Shaymin,Roserade,Jolteon,Rotom-Mow,Empoleon. These are 6 options in UU that can both defensively come take a scald or toxic and put in pressure into Vaporeon. As for NU there is a scarcity in Grass type mons in general as we only have Sceptile, and Ludicolo which isn't utilitized outside of rain. While keeping in mind that these two options don't have a health regen move like Venusaur, Shaymin or Roserade "Synthesis" when coming on a scald switch. Same points of comparison can be made towards the Electric types in NU, basically there aren't many enough and they don't get health regen moves. Yet again they can't get a guranteed exchange when switched against Vaporeon. 

Physical attacking mons have a difficult time getting through Vaporeon due to its bulk and ability to gain a guranteed x2 Leftovers health regen everytime it comes on the field due to the accessibility of the move Protect.

Additional Info: 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 82-97 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 102-120 (43 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Samurott Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 104-124 (43.8 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 94-112 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 80-96 (33.7 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

 

[RenDude]

Please open a thread for Scrafty as well, its pants are too baggy for NU

[caioxlive13]

20 hours ago, gbwead said:

 

Ofc, Sceptile could play a Leech Seed set or a SD Lum Berry set, but those are not that common. The common sets of other offensive mons like Eelektross, Scrafty, Rotom-Fan and Ludicolo also lose to the Vaporeon I linked. Imo, Lilligant looks like currently the best answer for offense vs Vaporeon, but strangely its usage drop since last season. I don't have an explanation for that, but if someone has one please share.

 

Probablly Lilligant dropped on usage due to some mon that can counter it risen by usage.

 

The only true counter alongside with lilligant, is luxray, wild charge is one hit to destroy vaporeon: 252+ Atk Guts Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 450-530 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO. Facade deals 50%-59% and Scald wasn't a issue. However Luxray's niche is small and not too worth to be heavliy used. Also, 36% recoil is a pain, nothing that a wish mon can't solve, however. Both Lilligant and Luxray are a bit gimmicks on current metagaming and had small niches, Lilligant less than Luxray obviously, however i don't think the counters are good enough to let vaporeon on tier, because the rest of team had little problems to get rid of they. 

 

My opinion, after analyze and read some comments: Ban Vaporeon.

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by caioxlive13

[InsufficientPylons]

In my honest opinion i do not believe vaporeon needs to be removed from the tier since it can easily be taken care of by the mons that are currently in the tier but... 60minutes is 60minutes... it has evolved stall into mega stall which is a test to your patience 

[AwaXGoku]

Since i'm not a great enjoyer of NU i wanted to wait for some NU tournament to happen before giving my opinion about vaporeon. 

This message describe really well Vaporeon and also why it is difficult to deal with vaporeon in NU :
 

On 4/21/2023 at 5:43 AM, ArtOfKilling said:

Finally. Thank you to @TierCouncil for opening a discussion thread. As I've said previously on the NU Tier Discussion Thread:

 

Vaporeon is a really bulky phys wall in both defense and special defense too with only 2 weaknesses which are Electric and Grass. As you can see it has higher HP and Special Defense Stat when compared to Quagsire which is a common Physical Wall in NU. Comparing Vaporeon's situation in NU and UU is very simple. As I said it can only be pressured by Electric and Grass mons which we suffer from a shortage in NU, Unlike UU which has options both offensive and defensive options which can come take A Scald or a Toxic from Vaporeon with the ability of either 1 shotting it or pressuring it to switch out. Examples: Venusaur,Shaymin,Roserade,Jolteon,Rotom-Mow,Empoleon. These are 6 options in UU that can both defensively come take a scald or toxic and put in pressure into Vaporeon. As for NU there is a scarcity in Grass type mons in general as we only have Sceptile, and Ludicolo which isn't utilitized outside of rain. While keeping in mind that these two options don't have a health regen move like Venusaur, Shaymin or Roserade "Synthesis" when coming on a scald switch. Same points of comparison can be made towards the Electric types in NU, basically there aren't many enough and they don't get health regen moves. Yet again they can't get a guranteed exchange when switched against Vaporeon. 

Physical attacking mons have a difficult time getting through Vaporeon due to its bulk and ability to gain a guranteed x2 Leftovers health regen everytime it comes on the field due to the accessibility of the move Protect.

Additional Info: 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 82-97 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 102-120 (43 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

252 SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 96-114 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Samurott Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 104-124 (43.8 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 94-112 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 80-96 (33.7 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

 

i will add some calc for the bold set since this is the most used set actually:
 

Spoiler

Physical threat:
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 87-103 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 125-150 (52.7 - 63.2%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 65-80 (27.4 - 33.7%) -- approx. 92.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (after haze)

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 125-148 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 105-124 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Absol Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon on a critical hit: 110-130 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 114-135 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Special Threat:
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 124-147 (52.3 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 166-196 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 89-105 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 151-182 (63.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 151-179 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 132-156 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 102-122 (43 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(All these calc are just information about what can do Vaporeon with the bold set so you are free to interpret them as you want)

Vaporeon can wall almost any physicall threat in NU even more with his acces to protect + wish and can also deal with physical setup with his acces to Haze. Scald pressure enough these physical threat to force them to switch to prevent being burned or getting big damage. 

Without getting any spedef investment, Vaporeon still keeps a really great special bulk that can be usefull against some of the special attacker. 

Indeed, most of the set of vaporeon are predictable and you will face most of the time the same set with the exception of 1 move but vaporeon does his job really well and combined with great teamate he can become very difficult to take down. Few pokemon can come on the field to pressure it and most of them doesnt get acces to heal (when vapo does).

I would like more imput from NU player about the pokemon and all opinion are welcome ! 

 

[BeluMEX]

I'm still a beginner, but I believe that the main problem currently in the NU tier is not Vaporeon actually. The main problem currently are Pokemon like Scrafty and Azumarill, as they become limiting factors when building PvP teams. Let me explain, for example, with Azumarill + Scrafty in the tier, you ALWAYS have to bring a Pokemon with Haze or a predetermined style of walls to stop them, making it difficult to build based on innovation. Pokemon such as Samurott, Sharpedo, Miltank, Slowbro, Slowking, Alomomola, among many others, lose their usefulness because this pair of Pokemon is much stronger and more usable in the tier.

In my humble opinion, I believe that most players do not build their teams based on the danger that Vaporeon may cause, but rather based on making sure that Azumarill or Scrafty do not become a problem. I've seen very well-balanced teams that can't do anything against either of these two Pokemon, which makes gameplay somewhat boring because you are forced to stop using very good alternatives such as Tangrowth, Rhydon, Cryogonal, Musharna, Claydol, Frillish, Throh, Lumineon, and many other good alternatives that cannot control this pair that can sweep your entire team with just one boost if you don't bring Haze or the typical style of walls.

[Merckis]

Vaporeon is extremely predictable in a given team usually, you will guess if it's wish protect or a more offensive set. Water Absorb is another fairly predictable switch in.

Thus Vaporeon can be used as setup fodder for some pokemon like Azumarill, Shed Skin Scrafty, Magic Guard Clefable, etc. etc. Vaporeon is vulnerable to toxic as mentioned and won't wall any water type that runs toxic like Tentacruel and Tentacruel has nothing to fear in return.

 

Bulky offense like Eelektross or Escavalier will do a lot of damage and receive little in return. Rotom will volt switch away or trick for great effect. Any variant of Sceptile will destroy Vaporeon as well.

I don't find Vaporeon oppressive for the moment, it's vulnerable to many approaches and doesn't have a rich moveset. It will get wiped by a sweeper unlike Quagsire and cannot do anything meaningful to take the momentum back (Quagsire can rocks, spikes), all it has going for it is its decent stats.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Merckis

[caioxlive13]

11 hours ago, Merckis said:

Vaporeon is extremely predictable in a given team usually, you will guess if it's wish protect or a more offensive set. Water Absorb is another fairly predictable switch in.

Thus Vaporeon can be used as setup fodder for some pokemon like Azumarill, Shed Skin Scrafty, Magic Guard Clefable, etc. etc. Vaporeon is vulnerable to toxic as mentioned and won't wall any water type that runs toxic like Tentacruel and Tentacruel has nothing to fear in return.

 

Bulky offense like Eelektross or Escavalier will do a lot of damage and receive little in return. Rotom will volt switch away or trick for great effect. Any variant of Sceptile will destroy Vaporeon as well.

I don't find Vaporeon oppressive for the moment, it's vulnerable to many approaches and doesn't have a rich moveset. It will get wiped by a sweeper unlike Quagsire and cannot do anything meaningful to take the momentum back (Quagsire can rocks, spikes), all it has going for it is its decent stats.

Setup fooder? Let me remind: Haze has 48 PP, not 8.

[Merckis]

I don't think Haze is a valid answer. Roar is a better alternative at least. Azumarill for example can still punch you with Return or click Toxic, a Return (unboosted) hit puts you in 2HKO range (if you're Bold, otherwise it's straight up 2HKO) .

Also Haze is wasting one turn and one move slot, you could be playing Unaware Quagsire, Clefable, or Encore prankster Sableye as an actual answer to the threat, a pro active answer that can force a switch out, from a switch in into a boosted threat.

 

Vaporeon isn't going to switch into a boosted threat, if it tries to predict and goes in on an unboosted setup pokemon it can just get punched in the face and then you can switch out and threaten Vaporeon with another pokemon to take the momentum. So the pokemon doing the setup isn't really committing & you are not losing momentum.

 

Also Vaporeon is 65 speed, so you gotta pray you are faster if threat is already boosted.

 

22% of Vaporeon are paired with Quagsire according to stat, already "Hazed", there is also 30% of Vaporeon not running Bold nature. So I thing it's pretty ok to assume a good amount of them aren't running Haze. I would bet a lot are Scald, Ice Beam/Toxic, Wish, Protect

 

I see zero scenario where Haze is advantageous, revenge killer Vaporeon can easily be switch in by many mons or punched while it clicks haze, switch in vaporeon will get punched unless water. So unless you predict with Vaporeon Haze won't do much.

 

Also how is Haze Vaporeon better than Haze Golbat eviolite.

 

Unburden Sceptile will 2HKO you and can Sword Dance all day, boosted or unboosted you'll go down

Azumarill hits Return or Toxic

Shed Skin Rest Scrafty Bulkup can just sit in front of you all day and get a free switch in whenever it feels like it

Magic Guard Clefable same

 

I want Vaporeon to be good personally but I sincerely don't see it as strong in the tier, so banning him really sounds outlandish to me. It's so easy to maneuver around it, like it enables threats to switch around more than anything I feel.

 

With Roar you have a good chance to get the momentum back at least after clicking it.

 

But bottom line is that you are wasting a move slot against teams not playing any boost, Eelektross doesn't care about Haze, Escavalier neither, Rotom neither, Blaziken neither, etc.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Merckis

[drewq]

1 hour ago, Merckis said:

Also how is Haze Vaporeon better than Haze Golbat eviolite.

 

 

A lot of the issues with Vaporeon stem from how splashable it is in any team - its defensive presence is absurd in conjunction with most standard stall mons and it serves as a phenomenal pivot on balance teams. Eel is the only mon off the top of my head that is equipped to "break" a lot of the common cores we have been seeing. There is nothing that is even close to being as oppressive as Vaporeon.

[Imperial]

I've decided to list the most common physical attackers and play potential scenarios if these Pokemon were to face Vaporeon 1v1:

 

Physical attackers in NU:

Blaziken, Piloswine, Azumarill, Ninjask, Cloyster, Golem, Scrafty, Drapion, Absol, Escavalier, Hitmonchan, Pikachu, Sharpedo, Swellow, Cinccino, Abomasnow, Braviary
 

Spoiler

Blaziken - For a choice set, Vaporeon can just use Protect to scout the move, for example if it's using Thunderpunch, and just immediately pivot out into something which can safely check/pressure it. Mixed Blaziken won't be able to deal with Vaporeon, also taking recoil damage as well and risking fainting to Scald.

 

Piloswine - Won't be able to handle Vaporeon 1v1 and risks the potential burn from Scald.

 

Azumarill - For a CB set, Vaporeon can just use Protect to scout the move and pivot out, or even risk burning it with Scald. Belly Drum isn't really as common for Azumarill nowadays, but that could be a potential play around given that not many Vaporeons are speed invested to phase it out. 

 

Ninjask - Alongside its x4 rocks weakness likely needs to set up +2 to KO Vaporeon and risks the potential burn from Scald.

 

Golem - Slightly less passive than Piloswine and has a decent attack stat but it will always lose in 1 1v1 situation and its primary purpose is a suicide rocks lead anyway.

 

Scrafty - Suffers from a PP stall battle against the Haze + Protect + Wish set, requires a few Bulk Up set ups and risks the potential burn from Scald.

 

Drapion - Needs to set up and risks the potential burn from Scald.

 

Absol - Needs to set up and risks the potential burn from Scald.

 

Escavalier - Needs to set up +2 and hope Megahorn hits to KO Vaporeon and risks the potential burn from scald (considering it's slower it needs to take 2 Scald hits).

 

Hitmonchan - Risks the potential burn from Scald (I'll need to try calcs for the AV set)

 

Pikachu - This could be a good answer for Vaporeon but will take a lot of unnecessary recoil damage from Volt Tackle.

 

Sharpedo - For a CB set Vaporeon can use Protect to scout. A mixed set won't win 1v1 with Wish + Protect and also risks the burn from Scald.

 

Swellow - This could heavily pressure Vaporeon and favours being burnt.

 

Cinccino - Vaporeon can scout the set and pivot out safely, also risks the potential burn from Scald.

 

Abomasnow - Need to calc to make sure but I don't think the physical set wins against Vaporeon 1v1 due to recoil damage from Wood Hammer.

 

Braviary - Vaporeon can scout the set and pivot out safely, also risks the potential burn from Scald.

Depending on the Vaporeon set and being versatile that you can customise EVs accordingly, even some special attackers may struggle to take it down without taking unnecessary chip like Zoroark and Alakazam. The best counters for this would obviously be grass types like Lilligant, Ludicolo, Sceptile and Eelektross, and some decent checks like Clefable (offensive set) and Rotom-F (offensive set).

 

I didn't want to spend too much of my time providing calcs unless absolutely needed (feeling lazy), but I've played quite a few games against Vaporeon and it can handle a huge proportion of the mons in the current meta. The sets are predictable, that's true, but unlike other walls it also has a decent special attack stat to chip/burn a lot of potential switch ins. 

 

To me, it brings out similar vibes to Porygon2 in UU in the sense that it pressures almost every physical attacking mon (yes you could say Sableye does as well except it doesn't carry incredible bulk), has an amazing ability in Water Absorb, has great special attack to potentially be decent offensively and has the option to heal its status if it gets poisoned.

 

What makes it most difficult to break down Vaporeon is the Wish + Protect combo. It can also PP stall against Pokemon like Golbat who now has access to 8 Roosts PP maxxed, and if you really want to be niche Vaporeon can pivot out with Baton Pass after using Wish if it really does feel pressured, switching in later if it can.

 

Personally, I think this Pokemon should be considered as a defensive-uber and it should not have dropped to NU in the first place, but it did because people were spamming Poliwrath and Toxicroak in UU due to Crawdaunt.

 

P.S. Sorry if this post feels poorly worded compared to my previous ones, feeling quite lazy right now but wanted to address my concerns.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Imperial

[Merckis]

I wouldn't consider pivoting out after protect a point in favor of Vaporeon, any pokemon with protect can do this play and you will take some damage on the pokemon switching in, it's not nothing & vulnerable to a prediction

I agree Vaporeon is strong but I'm against a ban for the moment, there are other very strong pokemon that scares me way more in the team preview than a defensive Vaporeon at the moment

[drewq]

3 hours ago, Merckis said:

I wouldn't consider pivoting out after protect a point in favor of Vaporeon, any pokemon with protect can do this play and you will take some damage on the pokemon switching in, it's not nothing & vulnerable to a prediction

The difference here is Vaporeon will run Protect with little to no opportunity cost.

[Sargeste]

Do we have any update on this stupid thing?

[BaliAds]

3 hours ago, Sargeste said:

Do we have any update on this stupid thing?

yeah tc decided vaporeon makes for a healthy metagame, and there's viable ways to deal with it, like luxray for example. if you can't deal with it, it's not their problem.

[RysPicz]

I think right now there are 2 main issues with NU- Scrafty and Vaporeon. And because Gallade is a really hot topic in OU, we have been overlooking the lower tiers.

I'm too tired to make a longer argument right now, but I believe both Scrafty and Vapo should get the iron boot of ghaey straight into UU.

[Munya]

Hasn't been overlooked.

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

Hasn't been overlooked.

prove it nerd

[Munya]

[AwaXGoku]

Vaporeon has dropped to NU at the last tier change that took place in the game. After a month of analysis and discussion, the tier council deemed Vaporeon to be harmful for the tier and is therefore added to NUBL on the vote of 4- 2 in favor of the ban for defensive uber / support uber reasons. This effect will take place immediately ingame.