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May 2023 Lack of Tier Changes/Discussion thread


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The update obviously kind of came out of nowhere so forgot to do this. Upon request by the Tier Council we will be trying a season where we do not have usage based movements during the first 2 months of a season and the last month will currently have the old cutoff of 4.36% but we are open for discussion on changing the cutoffs for that.  You are free to discuss things still during the first 2 months and things can still be banned/moved manually during them.  

 

Again this is on a trial basis right now and may or may not be permanent.

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With HO-stall ballancing, is it posibble to change pp nerf back? ZenH breloom and new staff on gallade can put as Wall breaker UB imo. There is nothing can safely switch in to CB breloom now, also the only Gallade check--Sableye, has 8 recover...

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21 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

With HO-stall ballancing, is it posibble to change pp nerf back? ZenH breloom and new staff on gallade can put as Wall breaker UB imo. There is nothing can safely switch in to CB breloom now, also the only Gallade check--Sableye, has 8 recover...

Just use Dugtrio can trap both

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Increase the usage in the third month from 4.36% to approximately 4.75-5% as the majority of movements in the lower tiers seem to happen between 4.10-4.50% and this can be easily exploitable with the current %.

 

Also on a side note, it would be great if the devs could communicate with TC when an update is due to take place so you aren't taken aback by huge introductions such as sharpness Gallade.

 

Finally, I spoke to @PoseidonWrath about this, but what are Tier Council's thoughts on moving Quagsire and Gastrodon to BL2? These mons getting a range of hazards make them really strong, mainly Quagsire with unaware, and they shouldn't really be in NU in the first place. Since usage won't be happening for the first two months, I was hoping that this would be a consideration, unless we need to provide huge evidence, create a suspect test etc...

 

image.thumb.png.4f256de059a2dd700dc17f8766993f3e.png

 

(For obvious reasons we don't have an RU tier in the game)

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  • Munya changed the title to May 2023 Lack of Tier Changes/Discussion thread

Litteraly the worst thing that could possibly happen. Just a few weeks ago we just saw an enormous amount of usage movements. The entire community complained that usage movements were not handled properly. By preventing even more mons from moving, this will lead to even more riddiculous movements in the future.

 

Tdlr: See you in 2 months for the next shitshow. 

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 I think it's best to abandon this ... usage system and use something different to determine tiers like VRs and Tour Usage in best case... It's not good to insist on ladder usage because of how much it are influenced by external factors non-related to PvP like History teams used by new players on PvP and Economical factors, like a mon not getting too used due to it being too expensive to buy and/or breed.

 

Also, with bombs dropped on metagaming using something so unstable it's not good anymore. Last month we had a record: 12 movements in one month. Now we can expect even more because of sets update and some decisive changes on lower tiers like Quag/Gastro getting both hazards, Altaria increasing it's wall utility with acess to Will-o-Wisp and Sableye with their 30 new status move kit, mainly issues being Thunder Wave to shutdown faster sweepers with just one click, and Dual Screens that can be setted with Priority and a Prankster user can't do anything to stop it. Also problems on OU, with gallade cleaning some mons' viability and Dugtrio being hardly spammed on teams more defensive. Don't even need to be a stall, Semi-stalls and Balanced would run Dugtrio more to attempt to survive Gallade, revenge killing it. Even if offensives are still fine vs a Gallade(Smurf Offenses, either Mushroom or Snake Variations, can win easily vs a Non-scarf gallade and scarf gallade need to play carefully, since opponent can and will captalize on a choice-lock. Rains just need to setup and enter with a rain abuser. If gallade dares to enter, take a one-shot), I think it would still be very strong. Not bannable though.

Now you may think: Why tournament usage? It's a bit inaccurate due to any people be able to join tours. Of course. However, if this is a issue, we had a very simple solution: Ignore any match prior to Round of 16 so the chance of any people have a history team and still be on tour is like, almost null. Only if the people faced other people with history team twice in a row. The number of matches would be 15 per tour, so at least 180 matches would be analyzed per 3-month cycle, not considering that more tours can appear. At least 12 is guarranted for each tier, thanks to Community Combats. Is a low database but if LC lives with less than that and the format as well as their sub-tiers are well-structured as much as he can be, why not give a chance? Also, this solution is not to be definitive. If devs put a usage database split by elo ranges, we could go back to ladder usage since we can just go for 600+ elo usage and disconsider anything below. 

Edited by caioxlive13
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6 hours ago, TohnR said:

Even less reasons to play the game until the last month of each season 💪

Gb sayed here:

On 4/30/2023 at 3:31 PM, gbwead said:

Tdlr: See you in 2 months for the next shitshow. 

I will be still here but more to compete on Grand Slam finals, and possibly on PGC if a second season happens, than for watch the chaos.

So, i have Two Words: See Ya.

Edited by caioxlive13
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On 4/30/2023 at 8:41 AM, Munya said:

Upon request by the Tier Council

Can we get some context on this? Did someone in TC ask for this? Was it a discussion? A vote? This decision goes against a lot of what TC members have said publicly, so I don't understand how this was requested. I'm not looking for a name or anything like that, just perhaps some clarification on how it was requested.

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Its been a topic of discussion since you brought up reforming the system, then it was asked a week or two ago my a member of the TC to move along with this particular reform of how it works, I asked if there were any objections, a few days passed some outright said no and to go ahead with it the others held there peace. 

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39 minutes ago, Munya said:

Its been a topic of discussion since you brought up reforming the system, then it was asked a week or two ago my a member of the TC to move along with this particular reform of how it works, I asked if there were any objections, a few days passed some outright said no and to go ahead with it the others held there peace. 

I don't understand. I said there was a problem with the current usage system and that it needs to be reformed.

The problem is that the usage system leads to volatily and yoyoing in movements. This means lower tiers are shaken every season to an unacceptable degree. The TC can't do their job because of that since any metagame analysis becomes irrelevant as soon as the new months start.

 

The multiple solutions I suggested to solve this problem aim to reduce volatility and yoyoing by increasing the amount of usage movements during the 1st & 2nd months and reducing the amount of usage movements for the 3rd month.

 

What you did is the exact opposite. You froze the tiers entirely. Nothing will move until we reach the third month. This will lead to crazy volatilty and yoyoing. Tiering can't work like that. 

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2 hours ago, gbwead said:

I don't understand. I said there was a problem with the current usage system and that it needs to be reformed.

The problem is that the usage system leads to volatily and yoyoing in movements. This means lower tiers are shaken every season to an unacceptable degree. The TC can't do their job because of that since any metagame analysis becomes irrelevant as soon as the new months start.

 

The multiple solutions I suggested to solve this problem aim to reduce volatility and yoyoing by increasing the amount of usage movements during the 1st & 2nd months and reducing the amount of usage movements for the 3rd month.

 

What you did is the exact opposite. You froze the tiers entirely. Nothing will move until we reach the third month. This will lead to crazy volatilty and yoyoing. Tiering can't work like that. 

Unfortunately i need to disagree. Now that tiers are frozen, they can analyze the threats on tiers, without risk of getting bombs on meta again. And for June the month would have no threat since may's treats would be solved and since no new threat can appear, they have enough time to discuss the solution given. Previously they couldnt because they're overloaded, due to they attempt to resolve a threat, but appear two news before the old one is solved.

Edited by caioxlive13
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Previously, our system was this:
 

Quote

 

First month: Everything above 6.7% moves up / Everything below 1.7% moves down
Second month: Everything above 6.7% moves up / Everything below 1.7% moves down

Third month: Everything above 4.36% moves up / Everything below 4.36% moves down

 

 

Because the cutoff point for moving up is so high during the first and second month, we almost never see anything moving up during those months. Because the cutoff point for moving down is so low during the first and second month, we almost never see anything moving down during those months.

 

Because the third month cutoff point for moving up is so low compared to the cutoff point of the first and second month, we see a lot of pokemon moving up. Because the third month cutoff point for moving don is so high compared to the cutoff point of the first and second month, we see a lot of pokemon moving down.

 

Because nothing moves during the first and second month, we see a lot of movements during the third month. The third month has to catch up basically. 

 

Problem:

When a season starts, the metagame changes significantly compared to the previous season. This doesn't work because TC has doesn't have any reference point anymore to determine what needs to be banned and what needs to be tested. Therefore, TC needs time to make up their mind, but by the time they do make up their mind, the season ends and everything changes again. This means TC can't do their job properly.

 

 

 

By freezing the tiers for the first and second months, the amount of movements to expect for the third month will be even higher. This is exactly what we don't want. This is exactly what people have been complaining about. 

 

51 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Now that tiers are frozen, they can analyze the threats on tiers, without risk of getting bombs on meta again.

Bombs are the issues and those are caused because there are not enough movements during the first months of each season. Freezing the tier creates more bombs.

 

53 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Previously they couldnt because they're overloaded, due to they attempt to resolve a threat, but appear two news before the old one is solved.

TC is overloaded because they freeze tiers and they have to catch up when 20 pokemon move up and down all of a sudden.

 

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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Previously, our system was this:
 

 

Because the cutoff point for moving up is so high during the first and second month, we almost never see anything moving up during those months. Because the cutoff point for moving down is so low during the first and second month, we almost never see anything moving down during those months.

 

Because the third month cutoff point for moving up is so low compared to the cutoff point of the first and second month, we see a lot of pokemon moving up. Because the third month cutoff point for moving don is so high compared to the cutoff point of the first and second month, we see a lot of pokemon moving down.

 

Because nothing moves during the first and second month, we see a lot of movements during the third month. The third month has to catch up basically. 

 

Problem:

When a season starts, the metagame changes significantly compared to the previous season. This doesn't work because TC has doesn't have any reference point anymore to determine what needs to be banned and what needs to be tested. Therefore, TC needs time to make up their mind, but by the time they do make up their mind, the season ends and everything changes again. This means TC can't do their job properly.

 

 

 

By freezing the tiers for the first and second months, the amount of movements to expect for the third month will be even higher. This is exactly what we don't want. This is exactly what people have been complaining about. 

 

 

But they have enough time to discuss the cutoff change and can apply starting on July, reducing the bombs that will have on tiers. 

 

Also for Cutoff changes i think it's more simple and understandable to do Hard/Soft Cutoffs. Like something like that:

Hard Rise Cutoff:

To go up: 4,66%+ Usage.

 

Soft Rise Cutoff: 

To go up: 4,36%+ Usage + 52%+ Winrate.

 

Soft Drop Cutoff: 

To go down: 4,36%- Usage + 48%- Winrate.

 

Hard Drop Cutoff:

To go up: 4,06%- Usage.

 

Example:

If a UU mon has 4,52% usage on OU but a winrate of only 47%, it would not rise since it's very clear that are being hardly spammed and forced onto OU even if aren't good.

However, If a UU mon has 4,46% usage on OU but a winrate of 53%, it would rise since it's a mon that are being explored on OU and are doing relatively good on metagaming.

 

Idea is to prevent gimmick things to return and rising every time. Using winrate along is not good, but it can be a excellent second criteria to prevent some movements.

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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On 5/2/2023 at 10:50 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Unfortunately i need to disagree. Now that tiers are frozen, they can analyze the threats on tiers, without risk of getting bombs on meta again.

They can analyze as much as they want a frozen tier.

But once 20 or so threats drop all at once because how flawed the current system is, every and any analysis they have concluded is ultimately irrelevant because the new tier with all those 20 or so threats is pretty much a complete different tier than the one they have supposedly analyzed.

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Adding to what gb said. Having such dramatic difference between the first 2 months and the third makes the system very prone to drop or to rise Pokemon that, for some reason, had an high or low unnatural usage spike in that third month, as well as locking it into the new tier for 3 more months, only to just come back to the tier he was before once again, pretty much rendering any adaptation process the tier has undergone potentially moot.

 

But the real question is: Why is nothing done about this? Worse. Why is everything being dismissed about this? Suggestions were given, but no effort into looking and discussing at them was done. What is so important about this mess that you absolutely refuse to get it changed? 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/3/2023 at 9:43 AM, Munya said:

I can immediately tell you no for that one, unless they automate it.

(Due to external factors, retired for almoost a month. That's why i didn't answer earlier.)

Well, we need a solution. Literally a nuke is set on metagaming to July. If we don't act, it will explode. 

Currently, 3 solutions is put on table:

  • Hard and Soft Cut-offs - Proposed by me, rejected.
  • Cutoff Changes - Proposed by @gbwead
  • Use tournament usage or Viablity Rankings - Proposed by me.

 

Those solutions aren't the best possible, the best would be usage elo-ranged, but are the best we can do with resources we had atm.

Some of them are at least on discussion with tier council?

(Also, on same page we had the usage data we can see Winrate without clicking anything.)

Edited by caioxlive13
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