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[OU Discussion] Gallade


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1 minute ago, Ajbramberg said:

Cant tell if trolling, blind or really stupid, i posted a whole list of easy checks you keep strawmanning what i said about crits. Gallade is extremely fragile and not very fast without scarf.  Im not sure whats so confusing about dragonite either?multiscale means its stabs move need 3-4 hits to ko and Dragon tail eats up a huge chunk of gallades hp and if hazards are set he wont be able to comeout again after being sent away  and atfter dancing it will outspeed and ohko gallade. . Trick also destroys it as well as priorities and status all of which are ou staples 

252 Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 88-104 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

assuming ur opponent wasnt expecting a dnite switching in to take a scared sword/psycho cut to face:

 

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 59-70 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO   //dnite tanks the hit and loses multiscale

252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 229-270 (137.9 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO //ur opponent which outspeeds u even with life orb, now lands the finishing blow

 

Maybe a defensive dnite would be better? but even def dnite is usually bad choice for a wall.

 

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Just now, AlphaDrake said:

252 Atk Gallade Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 88-104 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

assuming ur opponent wasnt expecting a dnite switching in to take a scared sword/psycho cut to face:

 

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 59-70 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO   //dnite tanks the hit and loses multiscale

252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 229-270 (137.9 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO //ur opponent which outspeeds u even with life orb, now lands the finishing blow

 

Maybe a defensive dnite would be better? but even def dnite is usually bad choice for a wall.

 

I run a def and hp nite and it eats gallade for supper man set up spikes and with good prediction it will never even get a single attack off, also nobody is running ice punch  with sharp and ice punch is not boosted by sharp either so its completely irrelevant

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4 minutes ago, Ajbramberg said:

I run a def and hp nite and it eats gallade for supper man set up spikes and with good prediction it will never even get a single attack off, also nobody is running ice punch  with sharp and ice punch is not boosted by sharp either so its completely irrelevant

Nobody is running ice punch on gallade? The most common LO set is running: Sacred sword+leaf blade+psycho cut and ICE PUNCH to deal with tankchomp/gliscor and any dragon switch in. Because u literally dont need SD on it anymore. U can run around night slash inplace of leaf blade too.

 

Also inregards to ur previous comment about tailwind, how many tail wind setup mons can learn baton pass/teleport? and even then u outspeed and allow a good dmg on ur gallade from the upcoming attk.

Edited by AlphaDrake
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1 minute ago, AlphaDrake said:

Nobody is running ice punch on gallade? The most common LO set is running: Sacred sword+leaf blade+psycho cut and ICE PUNCH to deal with tankchomp/gliscor and any dragon switch in. Because u literally dont need SD on it anymore.

The most common is scarf sacred sword, leaf blade psycho cut and night slash. Like i said though ice punch receives no sharpness boost so its crazy to list that as a reason to ban it, unless your saying ice punch and gallade should just be banned alltogether. And like i said 3 times set up hazards, dragon tail it doesnt matter if it can 2hko because it will be dead after 1 turn

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18 minutes ago, AlphaDrake said:

Nobody is running ice punch on gallade? The most common LO set is running: Sacred sword+leaf blade+psycho cut and ICE PUNCH to deal with tankchomp/gliscor and any dragon switch in. Because u literally dont need SD on it anymore.

The most common is scarf sacred sword, leaf blade psycho cut and night slash. Like i said though ice punch receives no sharpness boost so its crazy to list that as a reason to ban it, unless your saying ice punch and gallade should just be banned alltogether. And like i said 3 times set up hazards, dragon tail it doesnt matter if it can 2hko because it will be dead after 1 turn

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You gotta be trolling, what does ice punch have to do with anything? It is not boosted by sharp, and what does that picture have to do with anything? Pvp stats dont show movepools. Is your point that life orb is more popular? Once again how is that relevant?  Life orb set is even easier to counter

24 minutes ago, drewq said:

Ice punch is uncommon, but you are literally making things up.

Screenshot_20230504_024808_PokeMMO.thumb.jpg.6d85509859c626a9b442d338a33f47d2.jpg

I refuse to believe somebody smart enough to install roms would leave a comment like that. 

Edited by Ajbramberg
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Having an higher chance of setting crits is ultimately irrelevant to the Gallade discussion in whether it may or may not be Uber offensive. An increased crit rate has 12.5% odds. If this was any relevant, so would be virtually every rng move, and we would be calling every Pokemon that can carry Ice beam Uber offensive because it has a 10% freeze, which is objectively far superior than a 12.5% crit. 

 

Having no counters by itself doesn't mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive either. Just because you are comfortable with 80% of teams being heavy stall that just have to hard switch on whatever comes, neglecting any sort of balance whatsoever, doesn't mean that's how it should be, Also, Gallade isn't the only Pokemon that has no answers.

 

But if this doesn't necessarily mean a Pokemon is Uber offensive, what does? Nothing in particular, but rather a set of different characteristics the pokemon may possess. How often can it come to pressure things? How safe can it shift momentum, even against walls? How risky is it if you fail a prediction and how often is the user forced to predict right? 

Those are the questions you should try to answer if you want to convince anyone else of what is right in your head. 

 

Otherwise, Mixed Dnite would have to be banned. It can't be answered properly. Otherwise, Mixed Garchomp would also have to be banned prior to Gliscor having access to its HA. Why is Gallade any different? Is it just because it is a complete new Pokemon in the tier and you are terrified of at least trying to adapt to it? Is it because it may and it will disrupt the teams you have built so you have to rebuild them and you don't want? Who cares. Adaptation happens, accept it. 

 

Adaptation is important, and that is something that has yet to happen here. I would understand if a thread was made one month from now, but it hasn't even been a week. Why? Because it is Uber offensive? Why? Because if it predicts right it has no answers? Then ban other stuff (And having no answers is even a much more serious issue in lower tiers, but I won't digress). In a game that inherently has a delay in how it adapts to new stuff due to how breeding and building works, in a game that can take several months to actually see visible change to stuff implemented, are you telling me a less than a week old test was enough to tell you whatever?

 

If you asked me if Gallade sharpness should be implemented I'd say no. But now that it is here and has already exhausted player's resources, it deserves at the very least a testing period. 1 month? 2 months? I don't know. But definitely not less than a week.

 

Now, to answer my own question. How consistently can Gallade actually be on the field and safely spam their stabs? Not very consistently. It doesn't have many switch-ins in the meta, which means it won't be pressuring often, and most of all, it is absolutely incapable of blindly spamming their stab moves, since both of them are immuned and resisted by lots of Pokemon. Gallade is also forced to predict their stabs so to accomplish anything relevant, and even worse, it is often forced to rely on weaker coverage moves to deal with potential switches. This is not Uber offensive to me, or at least not immediately. 

 

I'm not done yet. I've been reading some "arguments" here and I am trying to understand how in the world is anyone supposed to change their minds by reading them. 

- Gallade is faster than most walls - Great. An offensive Pokemon is faster than walls. Superb. Is this our new metric for being uber worthy? Have we reached so low that we no longer want our walls to comfortably deal with any and every threat but we also want our walls to be faster than them? Wtf?

- Gallade has the strongest psychic physical stab - Great. Tyranitar also now has the strongest rock special stab. Please ban it. (Does it sound dumb? Good, cause it should)

- blah blah blah crit blah blah blah - Amazing. Ban every tri attack user. Ban every ice beam user. And don't forget Togekiss. Ban it too.

 

See what happens when you don't elaburate further in your "arguments"? When you don't explain what is in your mind that makes you believe something is a problem? All of this may sound right in your head, but by not explaining why it does so you can't convince those who do not see it the same way.

 

But I am not saying Gallade isn't a problem. Actually, I personally think it can be. But why should be my opinion valued higher than a proper test conducted? There is a massive difference between discussing a Pokemon that already was in the tier at full or at least close to full power, in where you can safely say it shouldn't come back, and a brand new Pokemon that has never seen the tier it now is in.

 

Test it. If it remains a glaring problem after the tier has visibly adapted, then you can properly discuss it.

 

 

 

 

 

TLDR; None. Go read it all.

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44 minutes ago, pachima said:

If you asked me if Gallade sharpness should be implemented I'd say no. But now that it is here and has already exhausted player's resources, it deserves at the very least a testing period. 1 month? 2 months? I don't know. But definitely not less than a week.

I agree with this a lot. The problem is that, historically in this game, testing lasts way longer in OU. It took 8 months to get something done about Garchomp. It took roughly the same amount of time with Serperior. It took even longer to get rid of Snorlax in gen 3. 

 

For this reason, I don't blame people for asking now for something to be done because 2 months from now, they will very likely be told to still wait. A sense of urgency now could pay off later.

 

I'm personally not convinced Gallade should be banned. I feel like it meets the criteria to be banned and yet it makes our metagame healthier. That's not a good reason to keep something from getting banned, but I have enjoyed its presence so far.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I agree with this a lot. The problem is that, historically in this game, testing lasts way longer in OU. It took 8 months to get something done about Garchomp. It took roughly the same amount of time with Serperior. It took even longer to get rid of Snorlax in gen 3. 

Sadly yes. I admit I overlooked this quite a bit.

Ideally we would fight against them being so apathic to actually actively change stuff once it has been accepted. Could we do it? Probs not, but I want to at least fight that lazy design.

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1 hour ago, pachima said:

Why is Gallade any different? Is it just because it is a complete new Pokemon in the tier and you are terrified of at least trying to adapt to it? Is it because it may and it will disrupt the teams you have built so you have to rebuild them and you don't want? Who cares. Adaptation happens, accept it. 

 

 

 

Hit the nail on the head, if you look at OU stats the most used pokes havent changed much since alphas were implemented. The tiers are named what they are for a reason, its not based on stats, its not based on abilities its based on usage. All That will happen as a result of sharp is other pokes will shoot up in usage to counter it,  amd maybe gallade might prove to be op despite its subpar speed choice restrictions and  reliance on lack of status/ hazards and on its ability not being taken away (which by the way i cant help but notice mummy is not taken into account in cofs dmg calculations) but so what, whats wrong with freshening up this stale meta a little bit? Do people really think there wont be any new abilities or alpha variants available when johto drops. I have  faith in the dev team to know what they are doing when it comes to these things and i dont think gallades buff wasnt thought out seeing as how it was one of the  most prominent additions in the last update.   I truly believe this just come down to an unwillingness  to change and adapt from people who are too attached to the teams theyve built and are scared of dropping ranks if they cant adapt fast enough. 

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50 minutes ago, gbwead said:

It took even longer to get rid of Snorlax in gen 3. 

throwback to hotarubi crying about this

Gallade is fun and it's not the deal breaker for OU, it's likely just part of the problem, OU has had a pretty nasty meta for the last months and nothing much has been done about it. I'd like them to provide gallade with a fair testing period, 2 weeks is probably too little to have tournaments inputs aswell, 1-2 months, maybe?

 

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53 minutes ago, dithyrambique said:

Can a mod please reach out via DMs and let me know why my post trying to get the discussion back on track was deleted yet other occurrences of "insulting, offensive, or abusive comments" remain?

All comments that did not contribute to the discussion were removed.

 

I personally do not believe that niche movesets/Pokemon or factoring in luck are compelling arguments in a discussion thread. However, I'm sure the tier council members are capable of sifting through comments and picking out which arguments are useful and which are not. It doesn't require players to flame someone for their opinion which only further disrupts the thread.

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7 hours ago, Ajbramberg said:

Really getting tired with low skill players crying for bans whenever a poke gets a slight buff. Nobody calling for eviolite bans or quiver/dragon dance nerfs. Sharp gallade is middling at best and is barely good enough for ou. When it had steadfast you could achieve the same effects with tailwind and a choice band so its barely even a buff. Not to mention pretty much any poke can 1hko it with a crit or place a well timed wisp to neuter it completely. Gallades usage will shoot up for a little while because  its something new and checks and counters will come organically. Advocating for a ban is going to set a precedent thats gonna turn pvp into a total stallfest where every good abillity is nerfed and everybody uses the same team, its already going that way.

did you ever try to apply for tier council? i think you will contribute a lot to their discussions and will def improve the comp scerne.

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@pachima my old friend, there you are. Appreciate the understanding. Understandably, folks see a monster that can beat any switch-in with it's boosted perfect coverage, using all 4 attacks, and want it removed. Conkeldurr, Garchomp, and Reuniclus were all fine. Now we're seeing a faster variant with little to no physical defense, but pretty solid special defense. I'm excited to see the meta change and adapt, or at worse, be pretty bad.

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Unfortunately regardless of whether action is taken on Gallade or not, the meta is in a rough spot either way. If you ban gallade, you revert back to the same old centralized meta where games are won if your starmie spins first in smurf HO mirrors (no reliable long term spinblockers btw, but not important) or if your dug traps ttar and reuni sets up to + 1 million. 

 

If you keep gallade in the tier with no sharpness nerf, meta becomes even more centralized around spiritomb, sableye, or which brainless HO team can win with gallade first. Sableye and spirit potentially raise their own issues. 2 dark/ghost in a fairy-less meta might be issues even with the mediocre base stats of those mons due to the support movepools they have (not likely an issue but still a noteworthy topic). 

 

While I agree that gallade in its current form is an uber worthy mon, the issue comes down to a lack of diversity in the selection of mons. We don't have HA alakazam, ha slowtwins, or HA tangrowth (not answers to gallade either though). We also dont have non-uber legendaries like heatran, mew, victini, or zapdos to name a few. Not that the devs would ever do something like this, but it would provide a fresh take on a stale meta. My point being that regardless of action or inaction on gallade the meta will continue to be extremely centralized where broken checks broken, with no room for team styles outside of HO or hard stall. 

 

In short, nerf sharpness to some extent rather than ban (if possible) because gallade is a cool mon, and the current meta sucks regardless. 

Edited by Scootter
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13 minutes ago, Scootter said:

 

 

While I agree that gallade in its current form is an uber worthy mon, the issue comes down to a lack of diversity in the selection of mons. We don't have HA alakazam, ha slowtwins, or HA tangrowth (not answers to gallade either though). We also dont have non-uber legendaries like heatran, mew, victini, or zapdos to name a few. Not that the devs would ever do something like this, but it would provide a fresh take on a stale meta. 

My hope is that with johto will come some new HAs aswell to even things out. That being said i do think this is a step in the right direction stall/spam was getting out of hand and in almost  every ou tourn ive seen or been in this year, dragon dance/quiver/stored power sweeps have ended up deciding games after 30+ minutes of stalling  having a faster more offensive ou may open door for things like speed boost blaziken to not be as game breaking in the future and its also more fun to watch which in turn brings in new players 

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31 minutes ago, Ajbramberg said:

My hope is that with johto will come some new HAs aswell to even things out. That being said i do think this is a step in the right direction stall/spam was getting out of hand and in almost  every ou tourn ive seen or been in this year, dragon dance/quiver/stored power sweeps have ended up deciding games after 30+ minutes of stalling  having a faster more offensive ou may open door for things like speed boost blaziken to not be as game breaking in the future and its also more fun to watch which in turn brings in new players 

To be fair I disagree. First off, speed boost blaziken will never be healthy for the MMO meta. It was banned in every generation except for gen 8, and even then it was arguably banworthy. Your point about the faster meta being "better" isn't necessarily true either. Like i mentioned before, the current meta arguable forces you to run certain archetypes with very little wiggle room in those team structures. Sure HO is fun, but its unhealthy and reminiscent of gen 5 OU where broken checks broken. 

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44 minutes ago, Ajbramberg said:

 like speed boost blaziken to not be as game breaking in the future and its also more fun to watch which in turn brings in new players 

Don't try to mention other things that don't have to do with gallade or the current meta, blaziken is not a topic of discussion and just derails the main topic, thanks.

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46 minutes ago, Scootter said:

To be fair I disagree. First off, speed boost blaziken will never be healthy for the MMO meta. It was banned in every generation except for gen 8, and even then it was arguably banworthy. Your point about the faster meta being "better" isn't necessarily true either. Like i mentioned before, the current meta arguable forces you to run certain archetypes with very little wiggle room in those team structures. Sure HO is fun, but its unhealthy and reminiscent of gen 5 OU where broken checks broken. 

Well i guess we will agree to disagree i dont think theres any non ubers that are truly "broken" theres counters for everything and if you play smart and lets not forget speed boost blaziken was mainly banned due to its mega and its baton passing capability which do not exist to the same capacity in pokemmo  Also theres plenty of ways to nerf things without bans, ie hydriegons draco meteor or chomps swords dance being removed. nobody wants to watch a 30 minute match where both players spam.the same move the entire time let alone playing that way. 

Edited by Ajbramberg
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