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[OU Discussion] Gallade


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252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 120-142 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

If Gallade attacks even once with all the Life Orb calcs posted by OP he is dead to any priority move (Extreme Speed, Bullet Punch) or any relevant pokemon outspeeding him or being able to live a hit, Garchomp, Dragonite, etc.

 

So unless Gallade does revenge kill, which isn't a given at all with its speed and the calcs clearly showing he is more of a 2HKO mon, he won't do much.

Also as already said he is super predictable, you don't have to guess like against Garchomp or Dragonite

 

He as 0 recovery and 0 bulk so you only get 1 chance with Gallade, and all you can do is revenge kill, you CANNOT sweep with Gallade given his speed (and/or lack of coverage depending on scarf of no scarf)

 

We also have the whole Smogon history to make a judgement and Gallade hasn't even reached OU once except in S/V, of course the meta are different but that says a lot

 

So he cannot switch in, and can only afford 1 mistake per game, so you must revenge kill and guess correctly, that's a lot. Many mons do much better, less conditionally, are much less predictable as well.

Edited by Merckis
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1 hour ago, Zokuru said:

Would it be possible to have a real discussion without people who have not clue of what they are talking about, or obvious trolls who made an account yesterday?

 

I believe this is an interesting topic and it needs educated discussion, not lines and lines of bullshit.

If only there was an easy way to set a tangible prerequisite that needs to be met to comment on these threads and suspect tests. 

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7 hours ago, pachima said:

3- All of those lose for Superpower Taunt Hydreigon, which is a valid set, except Mienshao, which is irrelevant because it is in the tier for a relatively short time, meaning it didn't exist in a time where Hydreigon still had access to the same wallbreaking capabilities without being deemed uber worthy.

This is completely incomparable with Gallade. Does Dragon Pulse 1shot anything in the meta other than Dragon Types? Does Superpower 1shot anything other Tyranitar,Lucario? 

Well that's the difference, an unboosted Gallade can pretty much hit alot of stuff neutrally without boost without it being super effective. 

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 99-117 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 190-226 (52.4 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

Once Again

252 Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 138-164 (87.8 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO 

252 Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 146-173 (100.6 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

 

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15 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Correction: It get quickbanned to OU and that's my heavily disagreement on the Gallade's movement. He shouldn't be banned and treated differently than other mons when they got new abilities. All of them got Moved. What are difference you may ask. I answer: When the mon are Banned, even if at the end of month if he are below cut-off,  to it had a properly suspect test, TC needs to vote and approval it's drop and it can took a while.(Electrode's Ban, even if he had usage to fall it kept stuck on NUBL for a while, and Alakazam that end more than a year on BL waiting a suspect). However, when he got only Moved, If at the end of month the mon has usage to end dropping, unless TC quickban it in one week they cannot stop the test(Example: Nidoking and Salamence. Both got moved to OU, later get below 4,36% usage and get a properly suspect on tier. Staraptor gets moved and he would drop. It only didn't dropped due to ban approval on 1st day of month.) And like some people point, not me(Here is the message: 

so don't trashtalk), some mons of UU can check Gallade. And it mentioned a few examples.

It was "temporarily" quickbanned at best, no official poll/vote was taken but one can be had if we ever get to that position.

 

As a reminder, keep personal attacks out of posts, all posts that contain any in the future will be hidden and warnings issued even if its only a small part of the post.  If you cannot be civil with your arguments don't make them at all.  This goes for everybody.

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2 hours ago, Zokuru said:

Would it be possible to have a real discussion without people who have not clue of what they are talking about, or obvious trolls who made an account yesterday?

 

I believe this is an interesting topic and it needs educated discussion, not lines and lines of bullshit.

I think this is actually a very fair point currently. Instead of having a meaningful discussion with people who know what they are talking about, we are ending up educating people about basics of competitive tiering definitions (and they still do not even want to comprehend those definitions), who are constantly derailing the discussion itself. I would love to see someone with credibility ( @DoubleJ? you got time fam?) making a longer post about Gallade's strengths, weak points, potential sets, damage calcs for potential switch-ins, impact on metagame and so forth and so forth. I know it's still early because it's only been a week, but I kinda feel like we are lacking one big post which we can address.

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Gallade

 

Strengths: no counters, 2hko's entire meta with 4 moves, good defensive typing,  great spdef, good wallbreaking speed

 

Weak points: poor def, susceptible to pursuit (Staraptor maybe?), speed is not favorable when facing offense, no recovery, susceptible to chip damage

 

Potential sets:

Doesn't need much other than 4 moves and a life orb or scarf, swords dance is just greedy but likely effective with AV

 

Impact:

Best wallbreaker ever introduced; leads to a more offensive meta, which has been the natural transition of mmo; opponents rely on faster threats to beat it or trick plays like a hidden focus sash or berry. 

 

 

Early usage isn't really good to look at. Usage including win percentage might be helpful after a month or two. 

 

Easy. Please discuss. 

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On 5/4/2023 at 10:11 PM, Ajbramberg said:

Sableye, peliper, focus sash excadrill any poke with willowisp, 2 layers of spikes, toxic spikes, banded scizor bullet punch or steel gem bullet punch, shadow sneak used in combination with spikes or rocks,  swift swim kabutops banded, ss kingdra ss omayster ss siesmatoad, technician hitmontop, choice banded sucker punch users, the abbility mummy, reactive gas wheezing, any sturdy mon with a high atk stat, shedninjaa if you cand force the choice lock, shit you could run a zoroark disguised as a psychic weak mon  but thats probably not viable tbh. Intimidate mons dragonite, volcrona with quiver theres a lot more but im not gonna type for an hour 

This is definitely one of the posts of all time

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I feel like Gallade is quite comparable to Mienshao in particular sets running Stone Edge. With something like Close Combat (more or less sacred sword), Stone Edge (roughly equivalent to psycho cut in terms of power & coverage) Mienshao has quite a good coverage. Stone Edge can miss of course but in terms of expected value I feel we are in the same ballpark. Mienshao also has U-Turn which is huge.

 

The issue is that Gallade has to commit to a move whereas Mienshao never really has to commit and is faster. And of course Mienshao has one of the most powerful ability in the Game with Regenerator, the same ability that will bring Slowbro in OU as well as Tangrowth when they get it.

 

Mienshao can also run Taunt in terms of breaking a wall (not entirely the same stricto sensu, but you get the point). It can also run assault vest set etc. It's not as 1 dimensional as Gallade. Mienshao still has value and can do chip damage after taking Will O Wisp. Gallade switching in a Will O Wisp is basically a death sentence

 

I'm not saying banning Sharpness is out of the picture. I just feel like it's so early for such a strong statement.

 

The total damage output of Mienshao during a game feels like it will always be higher than what Gallade can do. Gallade cannot switch around, cannot switch in a lot of stuff and must be scarfed or life orb so it's quite hard to get the same damage output over the course of a game, you'll die soon after clicking your one attack. And Gallade switch ins are painfully predictable.

 

Then you can say that you can run Gallade alongside Mienshao and that's a fair point, considering that Weezing strongest point is shutting down Regenerator and switching in almost freely on Mienshao, same for Cofagrigus (maybe Jellicent & Gliscor as well you could argue), and both of them are hurt by Gallade. But here we are already talking about team composition so yeah, I would say it's too early to call for a ban

 

---

 

Btw I joined PokeMMO a year ago (made a forum account recently goes of the Patrouski video & the server outage), and one thing I love about the game is the friction required to get a competitive Mon. I'm quite active in OU, recently beat the #1 ranked OU player in a ranked match. I have enough PokeYen to buy a comp Gallade now. But my point is that I have yet to experience Gallade fully (so far it's super weak against my team is all I can say).


So banning should be done in a slower fashion that was is done on Showdown. Give the people a chance to experience it. If even an active OU player like me has barely experienced Gallade, I can't tell what it feels like for players playing less regularly. You don't even get to finish breeding your Gallade or buying it, and it's gone already.

 

Additionally, AFC Adinho, one of the most documented OU player through his videos - I'm not judging his content (which I like), I'm just saying he contributes to documenting the state of OU through his videos - has barely anything featuring Gallade, he does not play him and rarely faces him. Yet is well ranked in OU and as I said his journey is well documented. To me that supports the fact that Gallade hasn't been experienced enough.

Edited by Merckis
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I've use Gallade in rank like 100 matches and here is my opinion: Gllade with lifeorb is top wall breaker in this entire game, no wall can counter it right now. And it caused by these 3 reasons:

 

1. It doesn't struggle with the choice of moves, because those three are enough: Gllade with S-sword+PsyCut+NightSlash 2 hits KO eveything(Apart from Sableye), with 80 base speed can let it outspeed 90% of walls, Gllade can choose SD, shadow sneak or Leaf blade for it's last move. With LeafBlade it can cause effective damage to Sableye and has higher chance of CT: 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 177-209 (58.2 - 68.7%)

  Previously, we can say that Conkeldurr was a very good wallbreaker, but you have to stuggle either choose thunder punch kills Jelicent, Ice punch kills Glisor or lifeorb Earthquake kills Wezzing, bring them all? then without Facade Reuniclus can wall it. Gallade win this in the begining as I just said it only need 3 moves to 2 hits ko almost everything, And have a flexible choise with it's last move.

 

2. Gallade is stable because all the moves will not miss, Innitially we have something like: CB tyrannitar or SD Kabutops, Stonedge kills many walls but there is chance of miss can let you fail the match. Gallade players never worried about it, you gain what you should gain if you did correct prediction. The other example is NP Gengar and Hydregon, +2 FocusBlast is not hard to kill Chansey, but you still need pray for not miss.

 

3. PsyCut not going to touch Helmet--So walls like Helmet Garchomp can not safely check it or once you predict ssword and switch in.

 

Those are all I want express, Gallade as a wall breaker is toooooo good.  But OU metagame is quite Offensive as I just played a lot these days, so all the strengths on breaking walls might not going to meet everyone's expectations (inlude me in the beginning), Gallade might change to Scarf+trick or AV so it can fit this Offensive meta more. All in all it is nessesary to Ban/NotBan when we take enough observation on it.

 

 

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Why yall lying tho? Heres me baiting a  cof switch in with nightslash  then hitting a CRIT  from my 5x31 gallade(mindgoblin) just to prove its not a 2hko not even close. So much for cof not being a counter. And if you run orb its outsped by 90% of the tier. Yall out here posting straight up lies to try and get something you cant play around banned and  its pretty funny

Screenshot_20230505-153144_PokeMMO.jpg

Edited by Ajbramberg
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7 hours ago, Scootter said:

But gallade has shadow sneak....

 

This is exactly what i mean when i say yall are dishonest, this imaginary gallade you want to ban has shadow sneak swords dance ice punch night slash leaf blade sacred sword and psycho cut too huh? You can only slot 4 moves man nobody in there right mind is putting shadow sneak on sharp gallade, but youll throw it out just to argue. My point was that a scarfed gallade is vunerable to prio with hazards, you literally said earlier mixed dragonite was too nich of a set to be considered a counter but then youll pretend shadow sneak ice punch swords dance sharp isnt niche. You just want it banned and wont listen to reason 

Edited by Ajbramberg
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10分钟前,Ajbramberg 说:

Why yall lying tho?

OK I should change my words to 1 hit ko evrything after SD+lifeorb lol, What else can I say if you use Mummy to wash sharpness then talk about calculations. and learn how to read, I was saying we need take more time to find enough data then ban it or not

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3 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

 

OK I should change my words to 1 hit ko evrything after SD+lifeorb lol, What else can I say if you use Mummy to wash sharpness then talk about calculations. and learn how to read, I was saying we need take more time to find enough data then ban it or not

What mon in ou doesnt 1hko everything with a life orb and swords dance though?  Also by the way im not replying to your post man im just talking about the calcs done here in general  lol 

Edited by Ajbramberg
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2分钟前,Ajbramberg 说:

What mon in ou doesnt 1hko everything with a life orb and swords dance though? 

Did you really say this sentence before thinking about it?  +2 Scizor can't kill bold Salamence and there is billions of examples on OU popular mons. I gonna stop in here and be free if you really want win this argument.

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Not true? What poke is tanking a swords dance life orb excadrill earquake if its super effective against it please list that man. Lucario is a sp atker with very low usage sooooooo irrelevant, the rest are all not true either. Keep in mind were talking about a super effective move like with nightslash and cof here man after sd with orb? No 

 

15 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

Did you really say this sentence before thinking about it?  +2 Scizor can't kill bold Salamence and there is billions of examples on OU popular mons. I gonna stop in here and be free if you really want win this argument.

Bro we scizors moves are all not very effective against salamance to compare that to a super effective swords danced move is so dishonest its actually wild 

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Gliscor walls SD Exca. Swampert doesn't get OHKOd. Defensive Chomp doesn't get OHKOd. Skarm should wall you if no flinch.


Lucario doesn't have low usage and is used primarily with SD, so you may need to check statistics to see proof of that or ask anyone knowledgeable about the current meta. 

 

The rest are super true.

 

You are 100% missing the point here, although that's not altogether unsurprising.

 

Edited by dithyrambique
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1 minute ago, dithyrambique said:

Gliscor walls SD Exca. Swampert doesn't get OHKOd. Defensive Chomp doesn't get OHKOd. Skarm should wall you if no flinch.


Lucario doesn't have low usage and is used primarily with SD , so you may need to check statistics to see proof of that or ask anyone knowledgeable about the current meta. 

 

The rest are super true.

 

Lucario is a sp atker? Also id hardley call 5% high usage . And once again we are talking super effective moves no mon in this meta is taking a danced orb super effective stab earthquake from drill. Gliscor isnt effected by earthquake so its also stupid to list that as a mon that can tank its quake and swampert isnt even in ou  and you say yall arent being dishonest lmaoo

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Please use the edit button instead of double posting. Also if you click on usage in game and go to the pokemon in question you can see its most used nature and usually based off that see somewhat how it is used.  Lucarios most used natures right now are Adamant and jolly making up roughly 70% of its usage, I think its mostly being used as a physical attacker right now even if it has the potential to be used either way.

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1 minute ago, Munya said:

Please use the edit button instead of double posting. Also if you click on usage in game and go to the pokemon in question you can see its most used nature and usually based off that see somewhat how it is used.  Lucarios most used natures right now are Adamant and jolly making up roughly 70% of its usage, I think its mostly being used as a physical attacker right now even if it has the potential to be used either way.

I said that and someone deleted my response in literally 30 seconds even though it contributed to the discussion. I was just talking slang like the dude was, why did it get removed?

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10 minutes ago, Munya said:

Please use the edit button instead of double posting. Also if you click on usage in game and go to the pokemon in question you can see its most used nature and usually based off that see somewhat how it is used.  Lucarios most used natures right now are Adamant and jolly making up roughly 70% of its usage, I think its mostly being used as a physical attacker right now even if it has the potential to be used either way.

Did i double post somewhere? Also still not relevant because lucario is still a sp atker and its not a serious comp mon and almost all of its users are newer players or people whos its thier favorite mon . And i know you didnt just try to justify a bad nature by adding two numbers together to make 70% of 5%  that's less than  0.035%  of players and adamant isnt even half that number  if you are going to sit here and throw out less than a percent of a percent numbers as a way to back something up idk what to even say.

Edited by Ajbramberg
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