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[OU Discussion] Gallade


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57 minutes ago, Merckis said:

The fact that Assault Vest & Bulk set were not discussed at all initially really shows that it's good to explore meta game some more

They're not bad sets but the most dangerous right now are Life Orb and Choice Scarf.

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this thing is broken, vs ho theres no problem, you will always have the tools to deal with any broken sweeper, but all scenarios must be considered, vs balance or stall theres not a single "ou" mon that wall this thing, this one is a different version of the old sd chomp, chomp had speed, this one has bulk, and thats better vs slow teams, and the worst part is that priority moves cant take it down, at least vs chomp u had ice but against this thing what.

Id say sd with sacred, ice, psycho covers most of the tier.

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On 5/12/2023 at 5:23 PM, Frag said:

this thing is broken, vs ho theres no problem, you will always have the tools to deal with any broken sweeper, but all scenarios must be considered, vs balance or stall theres not a single "ou" mon that wall this thing, this one is a different version of the old sd chomp, chomp had speed, this one has bulk, and thats better vs slow teams, and the worst part is that priority moves cant take it down, at least vs chomp u had ice but against this thing what.

Id say sd with sacred, ice, psycho covers most of the tier.

He destroying any wall it's not a valid argument. If was, Darmanitan and Crawdaunt Adaptablity would not be allowed in first place. Also, what prevents stalls and Balanced for just use Dugtrio to revenge kill it? And have one more factor: Most part of teams on OU are HOs, stalls and balanced right now are not too great, mainly due to nerfs.

Edited by caioxlive13
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2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

He destroying any wall it's not a valid argument. If was, Darmanitan and Crawdaunt Adaptablity would not be allowed in first place. Also, what prevents stalls and Balanced for just use Dugtrio to revenge kill it? And have one more factor: Most part of teams on OU are HOs, stalls and balanced right now are not too great, mainly due to nerfs.

It is a valid argument. If one Pokémon can singlehandedly disable an entire playstyle (stall, in this situation) then it should go away.

Do not compare Craw and Darmanitan to Gallade. They got worse typing and worse coverage.

If Dugtrio comes into Gallade to revenge-kill, then it means only one thing- Gallade has killed something. And that means, it has done its job.

 

 

After reading the posts and specing quite a few of battles I'm leaning more towards Gallade's ban (or nerf). I believe it's exactly as Frags said, offense / hyper offense got enough tools against it, but balance and stall are getting torn apart by it. Sure, stall is not exactly viable in OU nowdays, but completely invalidating it just by slapping one mon into your party does not sound like a healthy metagame at all.

 

On the other hand, Johto is just around the corner and we do not know what it will bring with it, but Im still not convinced that any changes could make Gallade less oppressing than it is right now.

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2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

He destroying any wall it's not a valid argument. If was, Darmanitan and Crawdaunt Adaptablity would not be allowed in first place. Also, what prevents stalls and Balanced for just use Dugtrio to revenge kill it? And have one more factor: Most part of teams on OU are HOs, stalls and balanced right now are not too great, mainly due to nerfs.

The difference with Darmanitan and Staraptor is that they will likely use moves which will take heavy recoil damage (Flare Blitz and Brave Bird/Double Edge). Alongside this, Sheer Force increases damaging moves by 30% whilst Sharpess increases moves by 50%.

 

You mentioned Crawdaunt, but this is harder to utilise with Amoongus being spammed a lot in the tier and the average speed makes it easier to play around (e.g. Rotom-W which can't safely switch in and outspeed Gallade) whereas with Crawdaunt if it really needed to can just recover HP with Pain Split as a banded Crawdaunt very likely won't want to risk being KO'd by a Volt Switch.

 

image.png.8d69b3367cd07f33198bf96db3d680c2.png

 

As Rys mentioned, Gallade has fantastic type coverage (e.g. It doesn't suffer from rocks weakness like Darmanitan and Staraptor) and has moves which covers a lot of the walls in the current meta.

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13 hours ago, RysPicz said:

It is a valid argument. If one Pokémon can singlehandedly disable an entire playstyle (stall, in this situation) then it should go away.

Darma and Craw, even staraptor, suffer from same problem than gallade. Even if you can't do a .... with they vs HO, only kill one mon at best, vs defensive teams you can win without trouble.

12 hours ago, Imperial said:

The difference with Darmanitan and Staraptor is that they will likely use moves which will take heavy recoil damage (Flare Blitz and Brave Bird/Double Edge). Alongside this, Sheer Force increases damaging moves by 30% whilst Sharpess increases moves by 50%.

Still are scary. Gallade, Darmanitan, Staraptor and Craw are good wallbreaks that can't win vs Offensives and can at maximum trade down one mon with they at best. Gallade are without any discussion the best, but it had the same weakness than other wallbreaks, and the weakness are easily explotaible on a metagaming where stall is no longer too viable, and balanced doesn't work if you don't had Gliscor + Amoongus on the team, so the majority of teams are HOs that as i said, could've one of mons traded for the opposing gallade.

Edited by caioxlive13
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I really hope the postponement is due to some serious discussions happening behind the scenes. If banning Gallade is causing such a mess, why don't we find a middle ground for keeping Gallade by nerfing the ability and Sacred Sword, just like Garchomp got their Swords Dance removed? and Draco Meteor Hydreigon as well.

 

I really hope we aren't waiting for Regenerator Slowbro/Tangrowth to be like, "Here, take this your Gallade switch", or even potentially dropping in future Legendaries that would ruin the metagame more to specifically counter Gallade. Let's accept that Gallade buff pre-updates weren't studied thoroughly and fix it with something that's not going to damage OU even more. I hope this message wasn't interpreted in an aggressive way. Thank you.

Edited by ArtOfKilling
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At same I think we need balance the effect of other mons if we let Tangrowth and Slowbro gain their HA, we could say that these two are checking Gallade, also we can say use Gallade is one of the few option which has potential kill these two, specitally we have item AV whitch really fit regenerator mons. 

 

and as I just posted it only checks Gallade, Gallade still have chance to kill slowbro and tangrowth.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 99-118 (47.8 - 57%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 114-135 (56.4 - 66.8%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 71-86 (41.2 - 50%)--will lose to trick Gllade

 

Gallade wont stopped by these two walls, and these two walls will be a nightmare to other attackers in OU meta, spetially many attacking moves are nerfed such as Outrage and DracoMentor. In my oppinion, these two can get HA when we have full damage of Outrage or we have legendaries. 

252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 366-432 (90.5 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 156-186 (77.2 - 92%)

 

Back to this topic, I think use offensive team or trap him(dugdrio/weavile) are the solution to Gallade, Giving OP walls to check a OP attacker is not a perfect solution, spetially even these OP walls do not stop Gallade.

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On 5/16/2023 at 4:58 AM, ArtOfKilling said:

I really hope the postponement is due to some serious discussions happening behind the scenes. If banning Gallade is causing such a mess, why don't we find a middle ground for keeping Gallade by nerfing the ability and Sacred Sword, just like Garchomp got their Swords Dance removed? and Draco Meteor Hydreigon as well.

 

I really hope we aren't waiting for Regenerator Slowbro/Tangrowth to be like, "Here, take this your Gallade switch", or even potentially dropping in future Legendaries that would ruin the metagame more to specifically counter Gallade. Let's accept that Gallade buff pre-updates weren't studied thoroughly and fix it with something that's not going to damage OU even more. I hope this message wasn't interpreted in an aggressive way. Thank you.

Tbh i made this thread to see if there are certain things we forgot to mention to handle gallade or some people that can hard defend it in order to stay.

Seeing this thread almost 3 weeks open, i havent seen anyone solidly defended gallade. i also agree slowbro/tangrowth wont do a thing to gallade as well if potentionally their HA are added. there are many solid arguments to nerf gallade by removing its abillity but nobody has yet to counter argument those.

 

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If we need ban Gallade, maybe we just need ban sharpness+Sacred sword. Force gallade run cc and get -1 defence. so he gets trapped by dugdrio and pursuit easier. imo Gallade is not that broken, but this can make stall solve gallade easier, at same time do not lose alot of ability vs offence. 

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I don't want to sound complaining or insistent by any means because being in TC or part of the developers isn't a full-time job, but I think we as a PVP community need clarity regarding the current situation. Not only are we not decisive and clear about what's going to happen with Gallade, but we're forgetting about other tiers like NU that need urgent assessment with Vaporeon and Scrafty. Which is currently on hold because we are giving all the attention to Gallade.


I understand that there might be disagreements within, which lead to this delay, but the longer we wait, the more the work is going to stack up. I offered possible and easy-to-handle solutions in my previous replies in order to move on with this matter and focus on what's next. I'm waiting for a reply. Thanks @Munya

Edited by ArtOfKilling
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I don't know if I'm willing to write a 1 billion words post in the defense of Gallade, but I don't think the solution to any problem is rushing to a decision. The fact that other tiers are being ignored IS an issue, but it isn't because it's taking too long to take care of Gallade, but because there should be different people taking care of different tiers. 

 

Also the fact that Gallade defenders aren't writing so much is understandable from the fact that while whoever wants it banned, wants to see it gone ASAP, people who think that it is fine aren't pushed to post a lot about something they don't feel much towards.

In addition to this, while it wasn't presented here, I have shown some little counterplay to Gallade.

 

1 hour ago, Ziiiiio said:

If we need ban Gallade, maybe we just need ban sharpness+Sacred sword. Force gallade run cc and get -1 defence. so he gets trapped by dugdrio and pursuit easier. imo Gallade is not that broken, but this can make stall solve gallade easier, at same time do not lose alot of ability vs offence. 

I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. The "problem" with gallade is how strong and hard to switch in it is, not how difficult it is to revenge or trap. This doesn't address its "issue".

 

 

Edit: I also would like to see other TC members' opinion about the subject.

Edited by Bertolfoso
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30 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

I don't know if I'm willing to write a 1 billion words post in the defense of Gallade, but I don't think the solution to any problem is rushing to a decision. The fact that other tiers are being ignored IS an issue, but it isn't because it's taking too long to take care of Gallade, but because there should be different people taking care of different tiers. 

 

Also the fact that Gallade defenders aren't writing so much is understandable from the fact that while whoever wants it banned, wants to see it gone ASAP, people who think that it is fine aren't pushed to post a lot about something they don't feel much towards.

In addition to this, while it wasn't presented here, I have shown some little counterplay to Gallade.

I disagree with some of what you said "but because there should be different people taking care of different tiers". That isn't how things work. It mostly comes down to a vote in most cases within TC, but this time the case is a bit frozen. From my point of view I already saw that the majority are against Gallade and I believe more than enough arguments towards it have been written. I'm not saying we should do or force the ban because the majority are against it, but we can also form an combined agreement to find a solution, It can't stay like this..

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I'm not one to argue or post on these type of threads but imma just put my two cents out there..

 

The real problem is we don't have a completely developed meta-game.. not that Gallade, Vaporeon or Scrafty are "OP". On top of that, the current tiering system is just flawed (as gb, pachi and others have explained countless times) yet there's nothing being done to solve that. We can complain and argue all we want, but banning some moves and nerfing abilities every time a pokemon gets introduced to our meta-game is just unhealthy, it sets a bad precedent and is kinda stupid tbh. Same scenario with pokemon yo-yoing from tier to tier every month. 

It's like putting a band-aid on as a temporary fix instead of solving the problem from the root and fixing it for good. And we have been doing it for a while now. 

 

I truly don't care what happens as this is just a game but it's quite sad to see people providing countless solutions and nothing being done about it. Like, why??? 

 

TLDR; Devs need to care more about the PvP community. TC needs to be empowered more. Tiering System needs changes. 

 

 

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If the objective is to fix current issues by adding new features or mechanics, whoever is in charge of making these additions needs to actually bother to ask the competitive community. Right now, additions are deicided based on economy, gameplay design, story lore, PVE and so many different things before looking at PVP. Let's be real, the competitive scene will never be the number 1 priority in this game and this is entirely fine, most players do not play PVP at all or nothing more than casuals. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

However, the tiering system has nothing to do with PVE, nothing to do with gameplay design or story lore. The tiering system should not be held hostage just because having "ubers is bad game design". If ubers are bad game design, then don't add broken stuff to check other broken stuff without even asking anyone what they think. You can't ask for no ubers, but put pvp decisions on the low priority list. These things are not compatible. If you don't want any ubers, PVP must become a priority. If you don't want ubers, you can't freeze tiers for 3 months. If you don't want ubers, you need to communicate your projects with the competitive community. The competitive community does not develop the game, they play it, their input should be invaluable. 

 

What I don't understand is that:

  • Serperior gets added, it's deemed a problem by many and a couple of months later we see Amoongus getting added. 
  • Amoongus gets added, it's deemed a problem by many and a couple of months later we see Gallade getting added.
  • What's next?

Why are these things decided without even asking us? We know this game extremely well. We know the metagame better than anyone. Don't you guys care to make the game good? I understand that for PVE, it's better to release an update where players are blindsided with new content, but this is horrible way to handle PVP. Blindsinding PVP players has led to the most atrocious metagames in the history of this game. 

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On 5/19/2023 at 1:53 PM, ArtOfKilling said:

I understand that there might be disagreements within, which lead to this delay, but the longer we wait, the more the work is going to stack up. I offered possible and easy-to-handle solutions in my previous replies in order to move on with this matter and focus on what's next. I'm waiting for a reply. Thanks @Munya

The overseeing staff(not just myself) would like to see it for 2 months before potentially gutting the pokemon, that said we also recognize the high possibility that the pokemon is broken and are in discussion with the TC on how to resolve that issue.  Nerfing the ability, nerfing the movepool, new pokemon that could be added, have all been brought up.  Nothing has been been decided yet but from a development standpoint the ideal is that removing something entirely from a pokemon should be the last resort.

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7 hours ago, Munya said:

The overseeing staff(not just myself) would like to see it for 2 months before potentially gutting the pokemon, that said we also recognize the high possibility that the pokemon is broken and are in discussion with the TC on how to resolve that issue. 

Sharpness was released on the 28th of April. 2 months would end on the 28th of June.

 

Should we expect a decision at that time?

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I'm blown away by the animosity & the level of entitlement in this thread


Personally I'm super happy about the state of PvP, the meta is way more interesting than on Smogon, many people just play sub optimal teams they like.

Gallade is definitely not broken. I can't believe we are talking about banning Gallade when you have way more toxic sets like Rotom-Wash, Gliscor, Garchomp, where you cannot know what set they are playing & you can lose when guessing wrong.


Like is it trick Rotom Wash or not, you can lose a mon on the trick, Garchomp can setup rocks, hit hard spe or phys or even hone claw, is Gliscor gonna sword dance or not, is it spe def or phys def or offensive. These sets have been around for so long, the Rotom core is still way more popular than Gallade.

 

Rotom can easily end up doing trick + will o wisp & that's a 2 for one, plus volt switching around. Gallade is predictable & risky.

 

I personally don't like Gallade in its design so it being banned is not what concerns me, it's this kind of mob mentality responding with the dismissive smileys all around, and overall being super whiny.


Saying the PvP isn't addressed properly by the devs is just factually wrong given all the stats & the ladder experience.

 

Again AFC Adinho is de facto the one person documenting the state of the game the most, and we recently saw Solar Power Charizard & Poliwrath at the top of the ladder.

 

How are you gonna say it's not a good state for PvP

 

 

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21 hours ago, Merckis said:

I'm blown away by the animosity & the level of entitlement in this thread


Personally I'm super happy about the state of PvP, the meta is way more interesting than on Smogon, many people just play sub optimal teams they like.

Gallade is definitely not broken. I can't believe we are talking about banning Gallade when you have way more toxic sets like Rotom-Wash, Gliscor, Garchomp, where you cannot know what set they are playing & you can lose when guessing wrong.


Like is it trick Rotom Wash or not, you can lose a mon on the trick, Garchomp can setup rocks, hit hard spe or phys or even hone claw, is Gliscor gonna sword dance or not, is it spe def or phys def or offensive. These sets have been around for so long, the Rotom core is still way more popular than Gallade.

 

Rotom can easily end up doing trick + will o wisp & that's a 2 for one, plus volt switching around. Gallade is predictable & risky.

 

I personally don't like Gallade in its design so it being banned is not what concerns me, it's this kind of mob mentality responding with the dismissive smileys all around, and overall being super whiny.


Saying the PvP isn't addressed properly by the devs is just factually wrong given all the stats & the ladder experience.

 

Again AFC Adinho is de facto the one person documenting the state of the game the most, and we recently saw Solar Power Charizard & Poliwrath at the top of the ladder.

 

How are you gonna say it's not a good state for PvP

 

 

You answered yourself. Like you said, rotom, chomp, etc they can do everything, while gallade having none of those qualities and being predectible as you said has higher winrate that all the mons you named. 
Also, 1% charizard usage doesn't mean anything.

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4 hours ago, Frag said:

You answered yourself. Like you said, rotom, chomp, etc they can do everything, while gallade having none of those qualities and being predectible as you said has higher winrate that all the mons you named. 
Also, 1% charizard usage doesn't mean anything.

I am honestly not against the idea of winrate being an important factor, but I absolutely despise how it has been used for years when it is convenient, and outright ignored when it is not. 

 

 

Not too long ago, P-z was banned because it shared higher than acceptable usage and winrates (Amongst other things). I don't disagree with the argument, but turns out shaymin has consistently seen better usage and winrates (And arguable the most insane numbers we had ever seen recently), and no one bats an eye.

Rotom-wash had maintained better statistics than Gallade in a tier where it was arguably broken (Before Amoonguss had access to regen), however, those were deemed irrelevant for some reason. 

For the past few months Amoonguss had insane winrates coupled with abover average usages, both better than Gallade's, but it was fine.

 

So, is Gallade broken? I don't know. But if we want to use winrate as a factor, then we should consistently use it as a factor, regardless of a pokemon, and regardless of how convenient it is. If we do that, then lots of other things are higher in that priority bracket that Gallade is. There are lots of ways to argue how problematic Gallade is, but winrate is not one of them, unless of course we also use it for everything else.

 

And besides, Rotom has almost twice the usage of Gallade right now. Due to the way our winrate is displayed, skewed by mirror matches, the difference between both's winrates isn't that significant to properly claim Gallade has a true better winrate than Rotom.

Edited by pachima
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5 hours ago, pachima said:

I am honestly not against the idea of winrate being an important factor, but I absolutely despise how it has been used for years when it is convenient, and outright ignored when it is not. 

 

 

Not too long ago, P-z was banned because it shared higher than acceptable usage and winrates (Amongst other things). I don't disagree with the argument, but turns out shaymin has consistently seen better usage and winrates (And arguable the most insane numbers we had ever seen recently), and no one bats an eye.

Rotom-wash had maintained better statistics than Gallade in a tier where it was arguably broken (Before Amoonguss had access to regen), however, those were deemed irrelevant for some reason. 

For the past few months Amoonguss had insane winrates coupled with abover average usages, both better than Gallade's, but it was fine.

 

So, is Gallade broken? I don't know. But if we want to use winrate as a factor, then we should consistently use it as a factor, regardless of a pokemon, and regardless of how convenient it is. If we do that, then lots of other things are higher in that priority bracket that Gallade is. There are lots of ways to argue how problematic Gallade is, but winrate is not one of them, unless of course we also use it for everything else.

 

And besides, Rotom has almost twice the usage of Gallade right now. Due to the way our winrate is displayed, skewed by mirror matches, the difference between both's winrates isn't that significant to properly claim Gallade has a true better winrate than Rotom.

I agree with that, I never said it's the only thing we should look at to ban something, it is just one of many factors to take into consideration when suspecting a mon, also another good factor is playing against the potential broken thing to see if its broken, in which I also agree with you when you say that you don't know since I do play alot ou and you don't.

 

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