Jump to content

[OU Discussion] Gallade


Recommended Posts

18小时前,Godhelll 说:

Regarding this answer, I maintain that simply removing Sacred Sword would not be a nerf that would change the situation regarding Gallade (especially vs stall). The fact that the number of PPs of Close Combat is lower than those of Sacred Sword does not change much here, since in the vast majority of cases, 8pps will be more than enough. And from what I've heard so far, it seems unlikely the game developers will backtrack on recover's PPs nerf.

 

Of course, there is an attack called pursuit, but you were talking about Gallade invalidating a particular playstyle, in this case, stall. To my knowledge, stall does not abuse pursuit.

 

Again, Salamence and Dragonite are not good answers to Gallade's Ice Punch, even less if rocks are already set.

 

Sableye doesn't handle Gallade very well because he takes a lot of damage due to his low stats. It easily runs out of recover, and it doesn't do much against Gallade SD+Lum Berry.

 

And then, above all, the usefulness of Sableye in the format is mediocre compared to the other pokemons of the tier.

 

I agree with ur idea, but the only thing is we need find a most suitable way to solve this. Like we just discussed we can not ban it

 

Now gallade seems not use ice-punch for lo/cb set, because +2 psy-cut kill glisor, and Bold Mence/Dnight have amolst 0 usage. when we bring back pp nerf, Sybleye/Mence/Dnight are buffed, Leaf blade/ice punch will be more improtant. That makes gallade struggle more aboout move choice, and balance the situation of stall facing this. 

 

I am not saying: Stall can win gallade after it nerfed by my way, I was expressing a balance way about how we solve this.

Link to comment

This thread has been open for over a month now and Gallade has had access to Sharpness + Sacred Sword since April 27th. Since then, the TC automatically moved Gallade to OU where its usage has risen (~20%). Initially, Gallade had a remarkable win percentage (cannot recall, but believe 56-57%), but now it seems to be settling at ~52% as players learn to adapt and check this behemoth through resistances, immunity, and skillful play (items, prediction, etc).

 

It's rare that we have an offensive threat with zero hard counters, and our community has truly struggled with it. There have been calls for a ban throughout this discussion with those calls leaning on its lack of counters, its overpowered attacks, high special def (boosted with Assault Gear), and/or outstanding speed as a wallbreaker. Counter arguments have looked at its poor sweeping speed and weak physical defense.

 

In my practice and observation, Gallade also proves to be easily predicted and its reliance on Fighting and Psychic-STABs are easily resisted (or immune), which means one mistake and its in jeopardy for the rest of the game. On the other hand, one mistake by your opponent means Gallade has done its job, which is not to sweep, but to "break" a team.

 

So, is Gallade too good at its job as a wallbreaker? My answer is yes. While it has its flaws, it creates an environment where true "wall-and-stall" playstyles are obsolete. Is this the natural progression of PokeMMO as we introduce more offensive threats in new abilities and legendary pokemon? Should we try to save "wall-and-stall" strategies? Who knows.

 

But right now, Gallade is just too good not to use and is overly centralizing. While it's not an offensive uber (doesn't meet the definition fully), it is banworthy from my perspective.

 

 

Edited by DoubleJ
Link to comment
7 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

 

 

But right now, Gallade is just too good not to use and is overly centralizing. While it's not an offensive uber (doesn't meet the definition fully), it is banworthy from my perspective.

 

 

Remember that is a discussion to a mon getting banned from OU. If wanna consider a ban, better also think on best nerf possible for him because a OU ban means the mon will get nerfed and reintroduced. I think if are banning it, a 15%-20% nerf on the Sharpness boost should be enough. Still could be the best wallbreak but took away some mons from 2HKO range and it can be more playable against.

Edited by caioxlive13
Link to comment
7 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Remember that is a discussion to a mon getting banned from OU. If wanna consider a ban, better also think on best nerf possible for him because a OU ban means the mon will get nerfed and reintroduced. I think if are banning it, a 15%-20% nerf on the Sharpness boost should be enough. Still could be the best wallbreak but took away some mons from 2HKO range and it can be more playable against.

No, I don't think I will. 

Link to comment

Not sure if this has been mentioned but maybe nerf sacred sword to 70 damage like the majority of the other cutting moves(minus leaf blade) and have the sharpness ability just boost 25% instead of 50%. So tired of losing to this mon because of the wrong prediction have to get a new monitor now...

Link to comment
2 hours ago, pvper said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned but maybe nerf sacred sword to 70 damage like the majority of the other cutting moves(minus leaf blade) and have the sharpness ability just boost 25% instead of 50%. So tired of losing to this mon because of the wrong prediction have to get a new monitor now...

1 - Nerfing the moves is not the solution because it affects the mons with same move for no reason. Only if this not affect other mons after all(Example: Nerf defog to it not hit allies. Kill Serpertrary's evasion strat on Doubles, but doesn't affect any other strat with defog)

2 - Two nerfs, seriously? One is enough.

3 - Nerf to 25% boost is too much. I agree on boost go to 35% instead of 50% if was to nerf, but honestly i think it doesn't deserve a nerf.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

1 - Nerfing the moves is not the solution because it affects the mons with same move for no reason. Only if this not affect other mons after all(Example: Nerf defog to it not hit allies. Kill Serpertrary's evasion strat on Doubles, but doesn't affect any other strat with defog)

2 - Two nerfs, seriously? One is enough.

3 - Nerf to 25% boost is too much. I agree on boost go to 35% instead of 50% if was to nerf, but honestly i think it doesn't deserve a nerf.

I think you should pvp more instead of commenting on the forums bro… saying it doesn’t need a nerf. And sacred sword is only used on one other mon that sees no usage in competitive play so that’s irrelevant like the majority of the things you say. Either way something’s got to be done about this mon. If you make just one wrong play against it it’s game over but I think everyone realizes that already.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, pvper said:

I think you should pvp more instead of commenting on the forums bro… saying it doesn’t need a nerf. And sacred sword is only used on one other mon that sees no usage in competitive play so that’s irrelevant like the majority of the things you say. 

1. Nothing are irrelevant. I'm offering a solution not too impactant and also fixing some misundertanding from you.

2. Now sacred sword is used alongside on gallade, on Samurott too. But no one here work on Game Freak so God only knows which set changes are going to happen. If was given to other mon it would receive automatic nerf for no reason.

Edited by caioxlive13
Link to comment
16 minutes ago, Munya said:

This topic isn't about a potential nerf it is about gallade and why is it banworthy or not - please keep on topic.

The best option would have been to be able to nerf the Pokemon. But since that's not possible, then I think Gallade should be banned. There is no switch in that is secure and this is not a normal problem. Even if I recognize that the arrival of Gallade provided something healthy in the tier, by breaking defensive pokemons making the games endless like Amoonguss and others.

 

In my opinion, it's not acceptable that this single pokemon can singlehandedly eradicate the entire defensive playstyle. And by defensive, I mainly mean stall.

 

But he would certainly be able to return to the tier later, when new pokemons and new abilities appear in the game.

 

 

Edited by Godhelll
Link to comment
3 hours ago, Munya said:

This topic isn't about a potential nerf it is about gallade and why is it banworthy or not - please keep on topic.

Let's agree: if gallade gets banned it would be 100% nerfed, right? It are stated on policy, topic "Special Consideration and Rules"

Quote
  1. If a Pokemon is voted on and banned from OU (moved to Ubers), the tier council, overseeing staff, and developers will discuss how to best "nerf" said Pokemon for     reintroduction. For example, Garchomp was banned from OU but reintroduced without Swords Dance, which was determined to be the reason it was broken. Similarly, Draco Meteor was removed from Hydreigon. If significant changes to the metagame have been implemented, these changes can be reversed through a suspect test if deemed appropriate by the tier council. Community members can suggest discussing these changes and a thread will be opened by a tier council member.

And a mon can be directly nerfed instead of get banned when it are being discussed on OU(See: Hydreigon losing Draco Meteor. It was never banned. They nerfed it directly when the ban scenario was possible.).

Edited by caioxlive13
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Munya said:

It doesn't matter, those things happen after it is has been decided and voted upon to be banned, that is not the case here.  This is for deciding if it needs to be banned.

So in the event Gallade gets banned, when and where are we going to be allowed to discuss nerf options? What's wrong with players suggesting solutions?

Link to comment

If the development team seeks player opinions on it then a thread will be made for it, until that time this isn't the place for it. There is nothing wrong with players suggesting solutions, but in the right time and right place, which this is not.

Link to comment
23 minutes ago, Munya said:

If the development team seeks player opinions on it then a thread will be made for it, until that time this isn't the place for it. There is nothing wrong with players suggesting solutions, but in the right time and right place, which this is not.

Historically, players have never been asked for their opinions regarding potential nerfs, so it's pretty much never the right place or time.

Edit: If this is not the right place, can I open a thread so players can discuss nerf options publicly?

Edited by gbwead
Link to comment

Solve Gallade is hard, Ban gallade cause 60 mins match back to OU, With out any nerf he kills a playstyle.

 

Again, how about get pp nerf back, so stall will be buffed and solve gallade better. I don't think we need to solve the problem in turn, if we can "test" gallade, why dont we “test” gallade + 16 recover as well, to see how the meta and tour happends.

 

Because Gallade seems only caused problem to Balance/Stall teamstyle, If we have a 16 recover helmet sybleye can strongly hold Gallade, also makes sybleye not bad in OU, then we can start thinking about this option. In fact, gallade's usage rise to top 5 in June, at same time OU meta told us, you need change to HO/rain so you dont potentially smashed by gallade.

 

We need do something.

 

 

Also, I'm not sure why PP nerf is happend, but PP nerf do not exactly solve the 60 mins problem which happends in OU meta Jan/Feb.

 

Perhaps this was the best option at that time, but the main problem is Glisor/Amoonguss/Av mienshao were too strong, 60 mins match usually happends Balance vs Stall or Stall vs Stall, and because Glisor/guss were too strong, makes many players pick them and play mirror match to the other. that's how 60 mins match occur.

 

Gen9 move updates give us Gallade, CC/ZenH breloom and Rock hydregon. HO gain many new ways to vs Stall, doesn't matter HO can win Stall or not, it mostly 20 mins and match will end. The usage of HO team style = Less 60 mins match in rank and tour.

 

Stall was not strong, it is one of a game style. I believe 60 match will less happends sence we have gen9 move/ability update. It's time to get nerf back.

 

 

 

Edited by Ziiiiio
Link to comment

zio explained it several times if 16 recover is not bad vs gallade because

 

in this meta play with reuniclus def not viable cause 8 recover

play salamence or dragonite def not viable too cause 8 recover

 

if gallame have 2 stab + ice move for exemple = 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 136-162 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 103-122 (47.4 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO 

0 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 101-121 (70.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO  (not best counter but very interssing for match vs gallame

 

if gallame have night slash (dont have ice punch) = 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Salamence: 181-214 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (good dammage but you can play salamence with speed for outspeed if gallame use sword and you switch and he lose hp with life orb... 

0 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 84-99 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (good dammage)

salamence not good but, a match little 

 

if gallame no have night slash 

sableye best counter

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 103-122 (66 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

+2 252+ Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 244-288 (170.6 - 201.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

for dragonite depend on scale or not

 

0 Atk Dragonite Wing Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 122-146 (85.3 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Dragonite: 94-110 (47.4 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO 

 

there is surely another example but a little lazy

 

 

so if i talk about the nerf recover with other players
it's for a good reason because it brings a small solution against gallame sword dance

from the moment the gallame player has to make a choice on his set, it complicates things

 

Edited by MadaraSixSix
Link to comment
55 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

 

 

if gallame have night slash (dont have ice punch) = 

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Salamence: 181-214 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (good dammage but you can play salamence with speed for outspeed if gallame use sword and you switch and he lose hp with life orb... 

0 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 84-99 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (good dammage)

salamence not good but, a match little 

 

 

 

 

so if i talk about the nerf recover with other players
it's for a good reason because it brings a small solution against gallame sword dance

from the moment the gallame player has to make a choice on his set, it complicates things

 

Salamence has the possibility of carrying speed to overcome gallade and weaken it from an aerial ace, in case of not carrying ice it should not be able to against it

Link to comment

Sableye and sala wall are overall non viable, unless you make a very specific strat for them or something, thats the reason they belong to lower tiers.

 

At the end of the day yea you can wall it with these mons, but overall your team will be weak because the slot you are using to cover only one threat could have been used to stop three or more over used stuff.

 

Bringing in non viable stuff to keep a broken mon isnt a good solution.

 

 

Link to comment
于2023/6/9 PM5点24分,razimove 说:

Sharpness gallade simply doenst belong in our metagame

It's true, but Ban gallade= Glisor/Amoonguss Stronger, during Jan and Feb, many PSL OU matches were 60 mins because new update on Glisor/guss make many people spam them--they are too strong, and Gallade limit the usage of this team style now.

 

We need hold both situation, Gallade and glisor/guss mirror match, imo they still strong in this meta, but PP nerf cause Def reuniclus/mence/Dnight etc not really fit this meta (trick room Reu is over 50% now in June), those walls can more or less give some limitation to gallade, if we can turn 16 pp back it can fit OU meta more, so you dont lose to the others while you have more option to add in ur team for checking gallade. (Gallade struggle on it's moves as well if more checks increase in OU)

 

Ban Gallade is not a good solution either, we just saw how it looks when many people spam Glisor and play mirror match in Jan.

 

 

Link to comment

To see how much chaotic is the situation: Gallade on OU are exactly like Digglet AT on SwSh LC: Unhealty(Like... Trapping is one of the most uncompetitive things on game) but he has to keep due to a biggest threat(On SwSh LC case, is called Abra Magic Guard). In our cases is the long matches come back. No matter if PP nerf be reverted or not, the matches would be longer again and we will face the time limit rule abuse. If remove time limit, then we will have 3h matches easily. And this harm a lot official tours and unofficial ones, being extended for no reason and on official tours, harming the ones scheduled to a close time.

 

That's why i prefer to it have a direct nerf(Not even ban it, just directly nerf this mon like was done with Hydreigon)that not harm it's role and kept controlled both Among Us and Gliscor, but let it be healthy on metagaming. 

Edited by caioxlive13
Link to comment

I don't understand the bias towards stall. Gallade is strong against stall, as said above by others, and the metagame is adapting.

 

Why should stall be favored?

 

Why Gallade should be banned but not mons with a higher usage.

People keep posting calcs with Gallade but that's not what competitive Pokemon is about. In a game Rotom Wash will trick a wall, burn at phys attacker, hydro pump Infernape, Volt Switch on Gyarados, Defog, etc.

Rotom Wash is very often a 2 for 1 if not a 3 for 1.

 

Gallade is nowhere near that level of power. Let the metagame shift. How is a 45 min stall game interesting? I don't even play Gallade, I don't like his design so I really feel I speak objectively, it seems that there is a bias to steer the metagame in a certain direction and favor some pokemon over some other.


If that is the case that's ok but at least be transparent about it. If you want to keep a metagame centered around Rotom Wash & Garchomp why not but Gallade in a vacuum is totally manageable by the metagame.

 

Win Rate isn't relevant unless we have more comprehensive statistics with the distribution per ELO rating etc.

 

Usage is what makes a metagame fun or not and will keep people playing and exploring. The Rotom Wash cores are super oppressive for anyone trying to brew an off meta team, you cannot break it, it is super consistent & stable. You won't see OHKO like Gallade can do, but you'll lose 100% of the time.
Gallade might make more explosive plays but it has many easy weaknesses to exploit, that's way more fun than getting stalled with certainty.

Stall is so broken because you can make mistakes & still recover. Gliscor is a prime example, it has so much recovery that even if you get surprised by a sp. Atk Tyranitar using Ice Beam you might survive & recover. Stall is way more oppressive than Gallade, it's just more subtle about it.


I see the same fallacy in card games, like Magic (MTG). Sometimes control deck (kinda similar to stall) start not even playing a win condition anymore because they know the other guy will just concede. It's not because stall isn't obviously threatening that it's not overpowered. Banning Gallade would be a terrible call in my opinion. Let the metagame develop. If Gallade is truly oppressive, which I heavily doubt then let it rise in usage more.

 

Usage is more important, like Rotom sits at ~52% winrate with 30% usage, which means that skilled player and complete beginners play him, yet its winrate is still sky high.

And this has been going on for years.

There is no counter play for Rotom, it can be sp. def or def and get the appropriate support from its team, you can so easily switch around with Rotom and guarantee a win, there is very little commitment, it's so, so strong. Gallade is more "flashy" if you want, but it's completely wrong to say it's stronger that Rotom or other mons with higher usage, it's a different gameplay.

 

 

Edited by Merckis
Link to comment
31 minutes ago, Merckis said:

 

 

 

Usage is more important, like Rotom sits at ~52% winrate with 30% usage, which means that skilled player and complete beginners play him, yet its winrate is still sky high.

And this has been going on for years.

There is no counter play for Rotom, it can be sp. def or def and get the appropriate support from its team, you can so easily switch around with Rotom and guarantee a win, there is very little commitment, it's so, so strong. Gallade is more "flashy" if you want, but it's completely wrong to say it's stronger that Rotom or other mons with higher usage, it's a different gameplay.

 

 

The point is that gallade threats the dominance of some mons. Like Serperior, it had counters but was target of suspect test on September. Conviently, Serperior was threatning the dominance of Rotom-W + Chomp cores. Now that something risen to cover it, people ignored the existance of suspect.

Edited by caioxlive13
Link to comment

You have billion of hard counter vs Rotom: Black sludge guss/roserade, AV mienshao, mail blissey.....  Covers either def/spd/np/trick. (Trick sludge nerf rotom's hp, and AV will let rotom can not use trick anymore).  And by predicting 1 time of trick, will let trick rotom becomes 0 threaten to stall, VS gallade you need keep predicting correct, one time in game is far not enough.

 

Not better than Rotom≠ No discustion about nerf/ban Gallade. It depends on the effect it brings, it can be many different way to show.

 

There 0 hard conter to Gallade, makes defensive playstyle hard vs him. then HO team find no pressure facing it. So it is a work about Gallade→Stall. We can not create a new pokemon to counter Gallade, what I think is buff walls to change the situation better. We get few options but is seem to be low usage, because nerfed PP make many walls not good to stay in OU, bring low usage wall might can solve Gallade in ur team, but at same time easier lose to the others.

 

Ban is not a good solution, it's a wall breaker UB only, nerf wall breaking ability or buff walls should be a good way to start. Ban it cause guss+mienshao VS guss+mienshao again and 60 mins match back to OU.

 

Finally, sorry for my expression of repetition

 

 

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.