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[UUBL] Shaymin


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 Hello everyone, the Tier Council has just started the discussion about Shaymin in the Under Used metagame, feel free to give the opinions you have playing the tier, before giving your opinion take the following into account:

 

Avoid derailing the thread.

- Please try to provide preference calculations to justify your opinion, it is not mandatory, but it would be very helpful to expedite the discussion.

 

 

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      d7v9p9t-b62f6b74-0b88-4803-89e2-0db28cb1d86e.gif.d3e1d93c3e414bb287f07e08a23fd340.gif      Reason for discussion     d7v9p9t-b62f6b74-0b88-4803-89e2-0db28cb1d86e.gif.d3e1d93c3e414bb287f07e08a23fd340.gif

 

Hi, as you all know, Shaymin the first legendary added to our metagame dropped to UnderUsed a few months ago. While it wasn't discussed at the time because he needed a bit of sample time to see how he fit in, we think it's time to discuss his stay in the tier.

 

Shaymin is a Pokémon that has very high and decent statistics due to its singular characteristic, with an above-average speed, also having great bulk despite being generally used as a sweeper, although the special attack is somewhat poor compared to others  things, it is when the movement that we should talk about enters and that is probably a reason for discussion.

 

Seed flare  has a chance to reduce the special defense by 2 levels 40% of the time, this causes shaymin's counters to end up being pressured and/or weakened from the next hit they receive, this added to its good bulk makes you dependent on not activate 40% to be able to handle it effectively. In addition to a power of 120, it still hits strong offensive pokemon resistant to it, for which it ends up weakening them due to its superior speed. It also gets psychic for those poison like crobat or roserade that come in to take seed flare, or hp ice to threaten dragons like salamence, hp fire to pressure bronzong or remove durant and forre that come in on most of their moves.
Recovery to recover incoming hits, which allows it due to its high bulk.  

And the new access to sleep powder that makes it gain momentum/keep pressing with other moves while taking advantage of sleep turns, works against their counters

The most used set is a Life Orb set with 3 attacks + recovery, based on taking advantage of its speed and special attack, while it recovers the hits it can withstand well, usually any that is not effective.

Defensive sets have also been seen that are based on wearing down with leechseed + rocky to pressure with seed flare

Some calculations towards possibles counter

Spoiler

Venusaur:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 19-23 (10.1 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 161-192 (86 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO 

0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 102-122 (58.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
 
| Venusaur relies on not activating 40% seed flare so it doesn't have a chance to drop after psychic, still, shaymin doesn't drop from sludge bomb, so shaymin is in an advantageous position (Offensive venusaur drops from 2 psychics without needing to seed flare)|
 
Snorlax: 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Snorlax: 87-103 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 104+ SpD Snorlax: 172-203 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
0 Atk Snorlax Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 100-118 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
 
| With the drop activated, this snorlax only needs to take 2 medium damage from seeds flare to fall, while snorlax does not weaken it even with its strongest movement, letting it hit up to 3 times |


Crobat: 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 32-39 (16.6 - 20.3%) -- 57.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 135-161 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 
0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 126-150 (72 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (21.6 - 25.7% recoil damage)
 
| Crobat wall, although it withstands the seed flare, the damage from rocks + psychic weakens it, in the same way, crobat is unable to weaken it from a brave bird, while after the recoil damage it is a percentage of removing it from psychic |
 
Umbreon
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 68-82 (33.6 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 134-160 (66.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 49-58 (28 - 33.1%) -- 65.4% chance to 3HKO 
|Nothing to say here|
 
Bronzong
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 49-58 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 99-117 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 
0 SpA Bronzong Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 42-51 (24 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 
| You don't even need to hit seed flared, drop and spam air slash, this hunk of metal will never kill you|}
 
Rotom- H 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 100-118 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 200-237 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
If you don't have rocks and it doesn't drop special defense you can take it, otherwise you will also be food
 
CALM
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 73-86 (24 - 28.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 147-173 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
This is probably the closest I got to a counter, even holding the seed + hp rock at -2, sure, watch out for the rocks.
 
Mandibuzz
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 124+ SpD Mandibuzz: 88-105 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. -2 248 HP / 124+ SpD Mandibuzz: 237-281 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 182-216 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
 
Drop and just use recover, leave it in range with brave's recoil and you'll be fine, no, seriously, mandibuzz loses 
 

 

Now, let's remember that as I said before, shaymin has enough speed to pass through many offensive things in the metagame, let's move on to common  check/ offensive  mons that aren't weak to seed flare.

 

Spoiler

Nidoking

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 140-165 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 140-166 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 205-244 (117.1 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

|A previous damage and this should sleep even with almost full life, at least this one can eliminate it from one hit |

 

 

Arcanine

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 66-79 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Roc

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 135-161 (81.8 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 

 

252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 242-283 (138.2 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

This is not even seen, in the same way if it is in 1v1, you would win by holding the earth power, if not you cannot do anda vs him, remember that the rocks are always present, so I would not take it as a check despite its type. (Rip with recoil)

 

 

Heracross 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 198-234 (127.7 - 150.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

XD

 

 

Roserade

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 107-127 (79.2 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 

 

 100% Chance to drop from psychic after seed flare

 

 

Sigilyph 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sigilyph: 66-78 (44.8 - 53%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO 

 

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 143-172 (81.7 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

You don't even need to drop special defense to generate a chance to remove it

 

 

Bisharp

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 148-177 (105.7 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 74-87 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

Rip with 2 seed flare o 1 earth power 

 

 

Durant

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 49-58 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 99-117 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 182-216 (104 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

Well, you take seed flare and hit it with x scissor, it's an answer in a sense, beware of hp fire, and earth power weakens you with a little pre damage

 

 

Spiritomb AV

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Spiritomb: 70-83 (44.8 - 53.2%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO 

252+ Atk Spiritomb Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 75-88 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO 

 

A little damage and you fall from 2 seed flare, payback + sucker don't kill

 

Well, you take seed flare and hit it with x scissor, it's an answer in a sense, beware of hp fire, and earth power weakens you with a little pre damage

 

 

Machamp

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 88-104 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO 

252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 94-112 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252+ Atk Machamp Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 39-46 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 4HKO 

 

Even without a drop you have a chance to drop from 2 seeds or 2 psychic, I don't know if I should take it as a check when dynamic punch + mach doesn't kill it

 

 

Salamence

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 182-218 (103.4 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Salamence Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 168-198 (96 - 113.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Bump

 

I listed these as more important because everyone else really ends up just as lucky going in or playing 1v1 vs shaymin.

 

 

 

Although everything seems in favor of shaymin , he also has his problems, Some choice scarf users can take seed flare and pressure/kill it

Spoiler

Roserade

252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 150-176 (85.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Heracross

252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 218-260 (124.5 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

Rotom H

252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 192-228 (109.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

Nidoking

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 158-188 (90.2 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 

 

BOUFFALANT

Shaymin Seed Flare vs. Sap Sipper Bouffalant: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever 

 

Among others, durant falls into this category as well

-Scarce pp of seed flare: 8 pp is something that goes quickly, especially when it is your move to spam

-Seed flare has a chance to miss

-60% of not activating the drop

-Bouffalant(Centralization, here we go) 

 

 

Feel free to discuss or give your opinion on what you have in mind, in this case I will take care of reading each comment carefully

 

Edited by Huargensy
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This is just RNG: The Pokemon

 

If I hit my Seed Flare and if I get my drop, you're toast. With sleep powder variants, if I hit that you're super toast. 

 

Shaymin has actually done a spectacular job at achieving what very little Pokemon can do; that being it is both unfun and uncompetitive to use and to go against. There is so much RNG with this sorry green sonuvagun I may as well be running Sheer Cold. 

 

This was nowhere near as obvious when Shaymin was OU because we had the likes of Amoonguss, Ferro, the blobs, etc. to soak up all those hits and it wasn't an issue. Such tools don't exist in UU and all of the Specially Defensive behemoths are susceptible to the SpD drop and subsequently being evaporated.

 

Also, given Leppa Berry is literally viable... the move is busted for the current power level in UU. 

 

 

Edited by drewq
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Shaymin is not fun to fight against at all, I usually have to use either umbreon/ empoleon or snorlax in my teams and even these are not 100% safe because of seed flare, the spdef drop on it has caused me a lot of games and I hope something can be done about that. 

 

Also, even without seed flare it gets sleep powder which puts the mons that can take on seed flare asleep. I also lost games because of this.

 

 

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I would say Shaymin is uniquely suited to really pressure Underused right now. It's Legendary stats (Total Base Stat 600) makes it bulky, fast, and a relatively hard hitter. It's also got one of the best STAB moves in the game in Seed Flare which nearly half the time results in a -2 SpDef drop, on top of near perfect coverage across the board with any combination of Air Slash, Psychic, Earth Power, or HP Ice.

 

It really can come and go as it pleases too, knowing that there are very few Pokemon with moves that can OHKO it on the switch. Additionally, Pursuit trapping does very little to chip away at this behemoth and Natural Cure limits any ongoing status damage, just to add to its durability.

 

Looking at the tier itself, you are starting to see the centralization it creates. Seed Flare resists are rising higher and higher in usage, and some players are even running opposing Shaymin as a check.

 

Fortunately, Seed Flare, which I believe is the biggest concern in our tier currently, is severely limited by its mere 8 PP. This means Pressure users like Spiritomb and Dusclops get to see some shine and make this hedgehog's life hell. Shaymin is also pretty easily predicted, praying for a SpDef drop to really make an impact. It's speed while great, isn't the best in the tier, and it's readily bested by Scarf users looking to take advantage.

 

Overall, I think Shaymin is the best of the best in UU right now and certainly on the edge of being broken. Currently, I'm personally in favor of keeping it around, especially as we continue to see the tiers evolve with new drops on the horizon (Johto when?!).

 

 

tl;dr Shaymin #1

 

Spoiler

Abomasnow Assault Vest #2 tbh

 

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20 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Overall, I think Shaymin is the best of the best in UU right now and certainly on the edge of being broken. Currently, I'm personally in favor of keeping it around, especially as we continue to see the tiers evolve with new drops on the horizon (Johto when?!)

Personally I would like to see more checks coming for Shaymin when Johto comes, however right now I think shaymin should be banned.

 

I agree with your seed flare pp point, dusclops and spiritomb could work but I don't know all that about spiritomb, it still takes a ton from seed flare still

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Spiritomb: 70-83 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO

 

I want shaymin gone because personally it has been a pain to teambuild for uu recently. Have to consider big threats like seed flares, crawdaunts, salamence and durant etc. I know im not that good of a player to keep complaining like this but this is just my opinion xd.  Just wanted to share my thoughts because I hate the spdef drops that happened to me and causing me to lose game instantly.

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3 hours ago, drewq said:

This is just RNG: The Pokemon

 

If I hit my Seed Flare and if I get my drop, you're toast. With sleep powder variants, if I hit that you're super toast. 

 

Shaymin has actually done a spectacular job at achieving what very little Pokemon can do; that being it is both unfun and uncompetitive to use and to go against. There is so much RNG with this sorry green sonuvagun I may as well be running Sheer Cold. 

You can't ever argue that Shaymin is RNG dependant. If it was, it wouldn't actually be banworthy, because those RNG mons aren't usually reliable to win games and be a threat to the tier.
For instance mons such as Durant and Venomoth can be absolutely unbeatable for many teams, when given the right RNG but they can also be absolutely useless when they miss.

Shaymin would be extremely viable and at least A tier without Sleep Powder AND without Seed Flare drop chance.
In terms of bulk, Shaymin stands in the top5 bulkiest mons available. For reference Bronzong is less bulky.
+2 252+ Atk Absol Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 85-102 (48.8 - 58.6%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Absol Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 94-112 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO
In terms of speed it has base 100 which is the fastest speed tier for a defensive mon besides Crobat.
It allows you to effortlessly outspeed all wallbreakers outside of Nidoking without much investment. 
And all that is just talking about the viability of the defensive set, which is less popular but would be used in case Seed Flare drop didn't exist.

The real problem with Shaymin is 600 base stat, the mon is too good all around not to use, it has access to good offensive coverage with STAB + Psychic + Hidden Power and guaranteed recovery move with the newly added Recover. Even its typing being pure grass is amazing to have in a lot of defensive and offensive cores. You add a broken move (Seed Flare) on top of that and it creates a lot of issues.


However, I would say Shaymin's big flaw is it clearly has a weaker utility moveset than usual defensive mons, and may lack PP with Seed Flare for the offensive variant (altho you can pair Seed Flare with Giga Drain). 

 

Before Shaymin & Salamence were introduced the meta was heavily dominated by water mons which are both numerous and powerful in UU.
Those mons all largely dropped in both usage and winrate because we introduced 2 mons clearly stronger than the rest of the tier that also happen to be good answers for Water.
If Shaymin happens to be banned, Empoleon & Crawdaunt should be looked at since they will both be largely buffed, Shaymin being the main answer to both in most meta builds at the moment. 

Edited by TohnR
Edit : On another note I agree to most of what Huar posted
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26 minutes ago, TohnR said:

You can't ever argue that Shaymin is RNG dependant. If it was, it wouldn't actually be banworthy, because those RNG mons aren't usually reliable to win games and be a threat to the tier.
For instance mons such as Durant and Venomoth can be absolutely unbeatable for many teams, when given the right RNG but they can also be absolutely useless when they miss.

With all due respect you have to be severely out of touch to think (Offensive) Shaymin is not an RNG dependent mon. Purely, no absolutely not, it is immensely powerful without the drop or even without running Seed Flare. But that chance is what elevates it and is why conversations get brought up. It can break Umbreon, Salamence, Dusclops... 40% of the time. 

 

Please don't forget banning such RNG dependent mons is not always an argument of being a genuine threat to the tier but also a threat of the competitive spirit of the game (Moody, evasion clause). Shaymin, in my opinion, is both of which. (This is not to say it is "uncompetitive" to the extent of those examples, but you can draw parallels.)

I'm not sure to what extent you draw this line. After all, it is only 10% more than a Scald burn. 

 

I agree with everything you say about its defensive utility.

Edited by drewq
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18 minutes ago, drewq said:

With all due respect you have to be severely out of touch to think (Offensive) Shaymin is not an RNG dependent mon. It can break Umbreon, Salamence, Dusclops... 40% of the time. 

Please don't forget banning such RNG dependent mons is not always an argument of being a genuine threat to the tier but also a threat of the competitive spirit of the game (Moody, evasion clause). Shaymin, in my opinion, is both of which. (This is not to say it is "uncompetitive" to the extent of those examples, but you can draw parallels.)

 

I agree with everything you say about its defensive utility.

Shaymin breaks the 3 mons you named 100% of the time, even if you don't use Seed Flare at all.
Shaymin needs the Seed Flare drops to pressure them, not to beat them in the long run. Leech Seeds does that alone (and HP Ice for Salamence). 
But to be fully honest Shaymin's role isn't really to break Umbreon, it just happens to do it with good RNG, but Shaymin does a lot of other roles much better than wallbreaking in the tier. That's why you can't really call it an RNG dependant mon, it is doing well even in the matches with no (or even bad) RNG involved. 

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27 minutes ago, TohnR said:

Shaymin breaks the 3 mons you named 100% of the time, even if you don't use Seed Flare at all.
Shaymin needs the Seed Flare drops to pressure them, not to beat them in the long run. Leech Seeds does that alone (and HP Ice for Salamence). 
But to be fully honest Shaymin's role isn't really to break Umbreon, it just happens to do it with good RNG, but Shaymin does a lot of other roles much better than wallbreaking in the tier. That's why you can't really call it an RNG dependant mon, it is doing well even in the matches with no (or even bad) RNG involved. 

You're absolutely correct that it can break those 3 with a defensive spread(albeit I think they just end up pressuring each other out depending on sets). It seems we are arguing 2 sides of the same coin in that Shaymin has absurd offensive and defensive potential.

 

I chose to share my thoughts on the offensive potential because that is what the calcs in the original post are supporting. 

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Well, a quick opinion now that I've become more active in competitive these days, when I made the post I didn't even mention the defensive or scarf variants that surpass almost the entire meta, only being surpassed by durant scarf, it's not just a form of wallbreak dependent on 40% to remove what is put in front of it, if not also a good revenge and such a good defensive mon able to pressure other walls with leech seed + seed flare with hp ice/fire/rock, it's a mon very good for UU, the offensive part is just a sample, a mon capable of putting so much pressure on anyone who enters and is not lucky enough to win the 60% no drop is something dead if it does not come out of there, the scarfs variants are more fast, but of these only 2 or 3 really ensure k.0, while they are eating hazards, something that shaymin recovers by recover, there is no disadvantage to using shaymin, you don't eat rocks, they have no way to trap you, you heal , you can withstand almost everything and you're even able to heal yourself and wallbreak, crobat is used as one of his possible counts and then you see that brave doesn't eliminate him, wall shaymin is able to withstand the bat cb's brave and eliminate him from recoil + rocky and psychic, it's too ridiculous, to finish, I have people play roserade scarf or bouffalant for shaymin, I wouldn't be surprised to see things like escavalier after they wouldn't be used in a normal meta because they're not viable enough, that's an issue for me of centralization, if it continues like this we would not be playing a meta with shaymin, we would have shaymin playing with our meta

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8 hours ago, Huargensy said:

 Hello everyone, the Tier Council has just started the discussion about Shaymin in the Under Used metagame, feel free to give the opinions you have playing the tier, before giving your opinion take the following into account:

 

Avoid derailing the thread.

- Please try to provide preference calculations to justify your opinion, it is not mandatory, but it would be very helpful to expedite the discussion.

 

 

image.png.654acd27bdea88cd9cb76f8aefc35094.png

 

 

      d7v9p9t-b62f6b74-0b88-4803-89e2-0db28cb1d86e.gif.d3e1d93c3e414bb287f07e08a23fd340.gif      Reason for discussion     d7v9p9t-b62f6b74-0b88-4803-89e2-0db28cb1d86e.gif.d3e1d93c3e414bb287f07e08a23fd340.gif

 

Hi, as you all know, Shaymin the first legendary added to our metagame dropped to UnderUsed a few months ago. While it wasn't discussed at the time because he needed a bit of sample time to see how he fit in, we think it's time to discuss his stay in the tier.

 

Shaymin is a Pokémon that has very high and decent statistics due to its singular characteristic, with an above-average speed, also having great bulk despite being generally used as a sweeper, although the special attack is somewhat poor compared to others  things, it is when the movement that we should talk about enters and that is probably a reason for discussion.

 

Seed flare  has a chance to reduce the special defense by 2 levels 40% of the time, this causes shaymin's counters to end up being pressured and/or weakened from the next hit they receive, this added to its good bulk makes you dependent on not activate 40% to be able to handle it effectively. In addition to a power of 120, it still hits strong offensive pokemon resistant to it, for which it ends up weakening them due to its superior speed. It also gets psychic for those poison like crobat or roserade that come in to take seed flare, or hp ice to threaten dragons like salamence, hp fire to pressure bronzong or remove durant and forre that come in on most of their moves.
Recovery to recover incoming hits, which allows it due to its high bulk.  

And the new access to sleep powder that makes it gain momentum/keep pressing with other moves while taking advantage of sleep turns, works against their counters

The most used set is a Life Orb set with 3 attacks + recovery, based on taking advantage of its speed and special attack, while it recovers the hits it can withstand well, usually any that is not effective.

Defensive sets have also been seen that are based on wearing down with leechseed + rocky to pressure with seed flare

Some calculations towards possibles counter

  Reveal hidden contents

Venusaur:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 19-23 (10.1 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 161-192 (86 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO 

0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 102-122 (58.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
 
| Venusaur relies on not activating 40% seed flare so it doesn't have a chance to drop after psychic, still, shaymin doesn't drop from sludge bomb, so shaymin is in an advantageous position (Offensive venusaur drops from 2 psychics without needing to seed flare)|
 
Snorlax: 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Snorlax: 87-103 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 104+ SpD Snorlax: 172-203 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
0 Atk Snorlax Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 100-118 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
 
| With the drop activated, this snorlax only needs to take 2 medium damage from seeds flare to fall, while snorlax does not weaken it even with its strongest movement, letting it hit up to 3 times |


Crobat: 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 32-39 (16.6 - 20.3%) -- 57.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 135-161 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 
0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 126-150 (72 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (21.6 - 25.7% recoil damage)
 
| Crobat wall, although it withstands the seed flare, the damage from rocks + psychic weakens it, in the same way, crobat is unable to weaken it from a brave bird, while after the recoil damage it is a percentage of removing it from psychic |
 
Umbreon
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 68-82 (33.6 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 134-160 (66.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 49-58 (28 - 33.1%) -- 65.4% chance to 3HKO 
|Nothing to say here|
 
Bronzong
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 49-58 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 99-117 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 
0 SpA Bronzong Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 42-51 (24 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 
| You don't even need to hit seed flared, drop and spam air slash, this hunk of metal will never kill you|}
 
Rotom- H 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 100-118 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 200-237 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
If you don't have rocks and it doesn't drop special defense you can take it, otherwise you will also be food
 
CALM
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 73-86 (24 - 28.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 147-173 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
This is probably the closest I got to a counter, even holding the seed + hp rock at -2, sure, watch out for the rocks.
 
Mandibuzz
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 124+ SpD Mandibuzz: 88-105 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. -2 248 HP / 124+ SpD Mandibuzz: 237-281 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 182-216 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
 
Drop and just use recover, leave it in range with brave's recoil and you'll be fine, no, seriously, mandibuzz loses 
 

 

Now, let's remember that as I said before, shaymin has enough speed to pass through many offensive things in the metagame, let's move on to common  check/ offensive  mons that aren't weak to seed flare.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nidoking

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 140-165 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 140-166 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 205-244 (117.1 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

|A previous damage and this should sleep even with almost full life, at least this one can eliminate it from one hit |

 

 

Arcanine

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 66-79 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Roc

 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 135-161 (81.8 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 

 

252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 242-283 (138.2 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

This is not even seen, in the same way if it is in 1v1, you would win by holding the earth power, if not you cannot do anda vs him, remember that the rocks are always present, so I would not take it as a check despite its type. (Rip with recoil)

 

 

Heracross 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 198-234 (127.7 - 150.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

XD

 

 

Roserade

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 107-127 (79.2 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 

 

 100% Chance to drop from psychic after seed flare

 

 

Sigilyph 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sigilyph: 66-78 (44.8 - 53%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO 

 

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 143-172 (81.7 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

You don't even need to drop special defense to generate a chance to remove it

 

 

Bisharp

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 148-177 (105.7 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 74-87 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

Rip with 2 seed flare o 1 earth power 

 

 

Durant

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 49-58 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 99-117 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 182-216 (104 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

Well, you take seed flare and hit it with x scissor, it's an answer in a sense, beware of hp fire, and earth power weakens you with a little pre damage

 

 

Spiritomb AV

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Spiritomb: 70-83 (44.8 - 53.2%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO 

252+ Atk Spiritomb Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 75-88 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO 

 

A little damage and you fall from 2 seed flare, payback + sucker don't kill

 

Well, you take seed flare and hit it with x scissor, it's an answer in a sense, beware of hp fire, and earth power weakens you with a little pre damage

 

 

Machamp

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO 

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 88-104 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO 

252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 94-112 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252+ Atk Machamp Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 39-46 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 9.4% chance to 4HKO 

 

Even without a drop you have a chance to drop from 2 seeds or 2 psychic, I don't know if I should take it as a check when dynamic punch + mach doesn't kill it

 

 

Salamence

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 182-218 (103.4 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Salamence Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 168-198 (96 - 113.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Bump

 

I listed these as more important because everyone else really ends up just as lucky going in or playing 1v1 vs shaymin.

 

 

 

Although everything seems in favor of shaymin , he also has his problems, Some choice scarf users can take seed flare and pressure/kill it

  Reveal hidden contents

Roserade

252 SpA Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 150-176 (85.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Heracross

252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 218-260 (124.5 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

Rotom H

252 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 192-228 (109.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

Nidoking

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 158-188 (90.2 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 

 

BOUFFALANT

Shaymin Seed Flare vs. Sap Sipper Bouffalant: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever 

 

Among others, durant falls into this category as well

-Scarce pp of seed flare: 8 pp is something that goes quickly, especially when it is your move to spam

-Seed flare has a chance to miss

-60% of not activating the drop

-Bouffalant(Centralization, here we go) 

 

 

Feel free to discuss or give your opinion on what you have in mind, in this case I will take care of reading each comment carefully

 

this good summary

the pokemon is broken strong offensively, strong defensively, fast 100 is super fast in the UU tier

 

and as that is not enough

 

he have a broken move

seed flare : 120 power and drop spe def 40%

the only negative point is that it has a greater precision than hydro pump and focus blast xd

 

I post for post because you all summed it up pretty well

 

for me you have to ban the green hedgehog in uu

or at least deleted his move broken
or nerf the move decreases the precision for example

 

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3 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

this good summary

the pokemon is broken strong offensively, strong defensively, fast 100 is super fast in the UU tier

 

and as that is not enough

 

he have a broken move

seed flare : 120 power and drop spe def 40%

the only negative point is that it has a greater precision than hydro pump and focus blast xd

 

I post for post because you all summed it up pretty well

 

for me you have to ban the green hedgehog in uu

or at least deleted his move broken
or nerf the move decreases the precision for example

 

I've explained on UU discussion request thread how complex ban works:

On 5/27/2023 at 11:26 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Sorry but no, complex bans don't work like this. On MMO, Complex bans occur only in two very, VERY specific cases:

  • If a mon is broken enough to be ubers, as a condition to stay on OU(Example: Swords Dance Chomp, Hydreigon Draco Meteor), It could also happen on non-official right now Little Cup format; or
  • If a mon got a fresh new Hidden Ability, it's complex banned instantly to OU(Mon + New Ability) , except if gimmick and no one cares about the HA, until Tier Council discuss where is the best tier to place it. It happened during October to November 2022, with some of the 60+ HA released at once. Some examples are Staraptor Reckless, complex banned on UU until be moved to OU, and Nidotwins, both complex banned from NU and UU until TC decided that King would be OU and Queen would be UU.

Shaymin is on discussion on UU, not OU, so it cannot be nerfed and at best it would be banned from UU and get stuck onto BL1.

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I thought I'd contribute to this discussion, hopefully, it will be helpful. 

 

First off, I'll list all of the sets I've seen being used:

  • Seed Flare, Recover/Synthesis, Hidden Power Fire/Ice, Psychic/Earth Power (life orb)
  • Seed Flare, Hidden Power Fire/Ice, Psychic, Earth Power (choice specs)
  • Seed Flare, Recover/Synthesis, Sleep Powder, Psychic/Earth Power (life orb/leppa berry)
  • Leech Seed, Recover/Synthesis, Giga Drain, Protect/Toxic (rocky helmet)

From what I've seen, it's clear that the biggest threat from Shaymin is its impressive base stats (as it's a legendary) + Seed Flare combination. Not to mention the fact that as I speak, the tier is dominated by water types (Poliwrath/Crawdaunt/Jellicent/Empoleon/Swampert/Gastrodon) to list a few making Shaymin an excellent Pokemon to use generally and the usage statistics justify this (there's probably more water types I've missed out but these are the most common. I know Empoleon is dual-typing so Seed Flare does neutral damage, but Shaymin pressures it enough that it can't afford to switch in safely, especially with the 40% chance for a special defence drop).

 

Shaymin also has Natural Cure, meaning it can't be crippled by status conditions such as Toxic/Thunder Wave, it also can't be put to sleep due to its typing. All it has to do is switch out to a mon which perfectly synergies/supports it and Shaymin can switch back in to repressure the opposing team.

 

Finally, it's great defensively and is perfect in stall teams, with the overall stats making it great offensively as well (e.g. Giga Drain).

 

My personal opinion, the reason why Shaymin dropped to UU in the first place is that OU is currently dominated by several steel types which installs a lot of immediate pressure (e.g. Scizor/Skarmory) and the tier has Serperior which pressures these mons way better than Shaymin with its more aggressive Leaf Storm + Contrary + HP Fire combination(s).

 

Now, with Shaymin in UU, I believe the main counters are only Dusclops (PP stalling with Pressure + Rest), Umbreon (PP stalling with Wish + Protect) and potentially special defensive Snorlax (PP stalling with Rest), although all three are completely vulnerable if the 40% special defence drop activates. You also have Durant and Rotom-H, but I personally don't think it's safe for these to switch in, and with Rotom-H it doesn't outspeed meaning a non-scarf Rotom would take 2 hits alongside risking a special defence drop. There's also Salamence, which speed ties with Shaymin, but you risk potentially switching into an HP-Ice which will pretty much KO it.

 

Shaymins high base speed makes it amazing as it outspeeds most non-scarfers except for Durant, Mismagius (which can't really do much in return) and Crobat, meaning it can pressure a lot of the tier with its good special attack stat + seed flare and generally amazing movepool (although currently we almost have a 4ms).

 

I looked at the official Smogon site to compare its viability and Shaymin currently sits in UU there, however, the main difference is that the Smogon meta has all of the Hidden Abilities and most importantly the legendaries implemented to counter/pressure it, which we currently don't have in this game.

 

To summarise, I can see that Shaymin is pretty centralising in the tier right now and the usage statistics prove that. People have to teambuild around this alongside having to look for answers to potential special defence drops if activated by Seed Flare.

 

I think until we have enough utilities in the game to support teams against Shaymin, it should be temporarily banned to BL1 under offensive characteristics although I stress that Shaymin is also great defensively. 

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I agree on pretty much all of the posts.

Shaymin on the current state of the meta is pretty hard to handle.

 

My concern about banning shaymin is that I expect an even harder centralisation of the meta around Mence which would probably end up in another ban discussion.

 

The adding of Mence and Shaymin changed a Water Type Meta, in which Crawdaunt forced people to run stuff like poliwrath to rise from Untiered to more than 30% playrate. Imo we shouldn't end up there again.

 

I think the overall banlist should be reconsidered, because Pkmn like Pory-Z keep sitting on the ban list even though they shouldn't be super oppressive in the current meta, but might be another solid answer to the current op stuff. Maybe even Haxorus is worth a try, but I'm not sure about it tho.

 

We'll get new powerful stuff added to the game. We can either adapt to the meta changes or keep adding new Pkmn to the banlist and get another unhealthy meta back.
 

This is prolly a very unpopular opinion, but have fun discussing 🙂

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I agree that it's very annoying in UU, because of Seed flare (SpDef drop) + it's coverage it can change the momentum of the game single handedly. Even if we use 2 SpDef wall in our teams like Umbre and Bronzong for example it can take Care of them alone with some SpDef drops.

 

But still I think banning it from UU is overkill, because if it's ban in UU then it'll automatically move to OU where it's totally useless even after it's coverage, since there are some other superior Grass mons like Amoonguss & Serperior for obvious reasons. 

 

The best thing to do is to just reduce SpDef drop from Seed flare. Like to 20%. It's a fair deal IMO. People will still use it and it can be still countered. If nothing is done it'll remain cancer UU mon. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, GautSam said:

I agree that it's very annoying in UU, because of Seed flare (SpDef drop) + it's coverage it can change the momentum of the game single handedly. Even if we use 2 SpDef wall in our teams like Umbre and Bronzong for example it can take Care of them alone with some SpDef drops.

 

But still I think banning it from UU is overkill, because if it's ban in UU then it'll automatically move to OU where it's totally useless even after it's coverage, since there are some other superior Grass mons like Amoonguss & Serperior for obvious reasons. 

 

The best thing to do is to just reduce SpDef drop from Seed flare. Like to 20%. It's a fair deal IMO. People will still use it and it can be still countered. If nothing is done it'll remain cancer UU mon. 

 

 

I think lower the percentage on the drop is no good solution because it leads to even more frustration if you get the drop.

Reducing the drop to -1 might be the better nerf.

 

Also not banning it because it's outshined in OU is no reason for a non-ban in UU. You can't keep a tier unhealthy with the reasoning that shaymin is too cute and needs a tier to be playable in.

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Personally, I don't think there's even a debate to be had regarding Shaymin. The pokemon is obviously too strong for the tier in the current format, so it should logically leave the tier at least for a while.

 

Maybe it will be okay to see him in the tier again when new changes appear in game. But what is certain, and everyone who plays in the tier currently says it, is that immediately there are no effective counters in the tier that can allow him to stay here. Getting it out of the tier can only be a good thing and is currently necessary for the tier to be properly playable.

Edited by Godhelll
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23 minutes ago, GautSam said:

I agree that it's very annoying in UU, because of Seed flare (SpDef drop) + it's coverage it can change the momentum of the game single handedly. Even if we use 2 SpDef wall in our teams like Umbre and Bronzong for example it can take Care of them alone with some SpDef drops.

 

But still I think banning it from UU is overkill, because if it's ban in UU then it'll automatically move to OU where it's totally useless even after it's coverage, since there are some other superior Grass mons like Amoonguss & Serperior for obvious reasons. 

 

The best thing to do is to just reduce SpDef drop from Seed flare. Like to 20%. It's a fair deal IMO. People will still use it and it can be still countered. If nothing is done it'll remain cancer UU mon. 

 

 

It's been mentioned several times but I'll include it here - the devs don't implement nerfs unless the Pokemon is too strong for OU since we don't have an Ubers category in the game. That's why there's been discussions about Gallade in OU since sharpness is too strong for the lower tiers.

 

So personally the most logical sense would be to temporarily ban it to BL1, wait until more HAs and potentially legendaries are introduced and then TC can re-evaluate Shaymin and drop it back into UU when it's appropriate to do so.

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8 minutes ago, Eipott said:

I think lower the percentage on the drop is no good solution because it leads to even more frustration if you get the drop.

Reducing the drop to -1 might be the better nerf.

 

Also not banning it because it's outshined in OU is no reason for a non-ban in UU. You can't keep a tier unhealthy with the reasoning that shaymin is too cute and needs a tier to be playable in.

I think it's also viable if we reduce it to -1. I don't disagree with you, bit still I believe 40% (2/5) chance is too much.

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4 minutes ago, Imperial said:

It's been mentioned several times but I'll include it here - the devs don't implement nerfs unless the Pokemon is too strong for OU since we don't have an Ubers category in the game. That's why there's been discussions about Gallade in OU since sharpness is too strong for the lower tiers.

 

So personally the most logical sense would be to temporarily ban it to BL1, wait until more HAs and potentially legendaries are introduced and then TC can re-evaluate Shaymin and drop it back into UU when it's appropriate to do so.

Banning it will be like wasting the potential of a pokemon which just got introduced in the game and waiting for Counter HAs/Legendaries will be like forever unless the devs purposely introduce them in next update just to make balance in PvP (which I doubt will happen because it's not worth it to just introduce new HAs and Legendaries just to counter 1 mon). 

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