May 2024 Movement Discussion Thread

[Munya]

There's currently a vote going on in regards to Yanmega

 

6 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

UU now has Bronzong, Entei and Mandibuzz. It is time to drop shaymin

 

Also it has Politoed, we could test Torkoal UU

If it ever drops below usage movement cutoff sure, but it hasn't.

 

[VadimEmpoleon]

Gallade

Now that new answers to Gallade are confirmed to be released in the upcoming updates I believe that the best thing to do is keep as it is until the new answers to Gallade are released just like Rache said.

 

Dugtrio and Arena Trap

When it comes to Dugtrio, I believe Dugtrio does not fit the Uber Support characteristic but is uncompetitive so Arena Trap+Dugtrio should be complex banned. I'd rather ban Arena Trap as a whole because even if Trapinch and Diglett are not very interesting mons if they get to be used with this ability they will still rely on the uncompetitive aspect of this ability which can't be consistently prevented like Pursuit or Magnet Pull. I know some will disagree with an Arena Trap ban so probably the best thing to do is the complex ban on Dugtrio because I don't think anyone would care much about Trapinch or Diglett having it. Not going to give many arguments now on why I think this way because there isn't a discussion going on for it right now. If the ban happened I totally disagree with doing any other thing that is not the Arena Trap+Dugtrio complex ban because removing moves or reducing stats seems like a more obtrusive way to me. It should also be removed from BL if AT+Dugtrio complex ban happens.

 

Opening a discussion for it right now seems like the best option imo. I believe there is nothing in the Tier Policies against it. It would be a good idea to add a Tier Policy that sets a period of time in which a ban can't be voted again to happen after being rejected unless important changes happen within the tier (this case) to prevent situations like this.

 

Shaymin

It should be retested in UU, Mandibuzz always countered it. Stalling Seed Flare was also always a good way of dealing with it. And of course Entei, Salamence, Raikou, Ninetales are now in the tier and can annoy Shaymin.

 

Yanmega

Like I said in the NU Discussion Thread I think the best thing is doing a suspect test for 1 month.

 

Rhyperior

I think this mon also deserves a suspect test, it was banned long ago and all I can see in this mon is a better Rhydon, slightly better stats and better ability.

 

Recovery moves PP nerf

While I understand that for consistency they have 8 PP, this affects the metagame in a bad way, this increases the viability of Regenerator mons and Wish mons which were already very viable when recovery moves had 16 PP but reduces the viability of other defensive mons, it also affects the viability of some setup sweepers like Reuniclus or Sigilyph. This change adds nothing positive. A similar case are the gems which still have their 50% boost instead of the 30% and this is a good thing because they become useless with a 30% boost. Returning the recovery moves to 16 PP is just a single change and would affect positively every tier, I believe this is a very good reason to do it.

 

Acupressure

This move should be included in the evasion Clause along with Minimize and Double Team.

 

Vaporeon

¿?

 

Crawdaunt

¿?

[Imperial]

5 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Gallade

Now that new answers to Gallade are confirmed to be released in the upcoming updates I believe that the best thing to do is keep as it is until the new answers to Gallade are released just like Rache said.

 

Dugtrio and Arena Trap

When it comes to Dugtrio, I believe Dugtrio does not fit the Uber Support characteristic but is uncompetitive so Arena Trap+Dugtrio should be complex banned. I'd rather ban Arena Trap as a whole because even if Trapinch and Diglett are not very interesting mons if they get to be used with this ability they will still rely on the uncompetitive aspect of this ability which can't be consistently prevented like Pursuit or Magnet Pull. I know some will disagree with an Arena Trap ban so probably the best thing to do is the complex ban on Dugtrio because I don't think anyone would care much about Trapinch or Diglett having it. Not going to give many arguments now on why I think this way because there isn't a discussion going on for it right now. If the ban happened I totally disagree with doing any other thing that is not the Arena Trap+Dugtrio complex ban because removing moves or reducing stats seems like a more obtrusive way to me. It should also be removed from BL if AT+Dugtrio complex ban happens.

 

Opening a discussion for it right now seems like the best option imo. I believe there is nothing in the Tier Policies against it. It would be a good idea to add a Tier Policy that sets a period of time in which a ban can't be voted again to happen after being rejected unless important changes happen within the tier (this case) to prevent situations like this.

 

Shaymin

It should be retested in UU, Mandibuzz always countered it. Stalling Seed Flare was also always a good way of dealing with it. And of course Entei, Salamence, Raikou, Ninetales are now in the tier and can annoy Shaymin.

 

Yanmega

Like I said in the NU Discussion Thread I think the best thing is doing a suspect test for 1 month.

 

Rhyperior

I think this mon also deserves a suspect test, it was banned long ago and all I can see in this mon is a better Rhydon, slightly better stats and better ability.

 

Recovery moves PP nerf

While I understand that for consistency they have 8 PP, this affects the metagame in a bad way, this increases the viability of Regenerator mons and Wish mons which were already very viable when recovery moves had 16 PP but reduces the viability of other defensive mons, it also affects the viability of some setup sweepers like Reuniclus or Sigilyph. This change adds nothing positive. A similar case are the gems which still have their 50% boost instead of the 30% and this is a good thing because they become useless with a 30% boost. Returning the recovery moves to 16 PP is just a single change and would affect positively every tier, I believe this is a very good reason to do it.

 

Acupressure

This move should be included in the evasion Clause along with Minimize and Double Team.

 

Vaporeon

¿?

 

Crawdaunt

¿?

I agree with several of your points but I do disagree about Rhyperior - I remember this in NU and feel that this will still be capable of being too strong for the tier. 

[TohnR]

15 hours ago, Munya said:

Yanmega - 2.91% usage in UU

 

Tell me there's an ongoing vote to quickban this ?

 

EDIT : Ok Munya said there is, cool 

Edited April 27, 2024 by TohnR

[ArtOfKilling]

18 hours ago, Rache said:

Returning it to 1.5x was the result of a 5-1 tier council vote in late

If I remember correctly that vote was due to the unexplained buff from 1.3 to 1.4 which made calculations unviable. I genuinely think TC members agreed for the reset back to 1.5 not because they preferred it that way but more off how does 1.4 make sense. I think the nerf to 1.3 was fair, but the reset back again to how it was when it dropped while we still didn't get a decent answer to Gallade is what doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

18 hours ago, Rache said:

We'll be introducing some more answers to Gallade with the raid update

252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 76-91 (36.7 - 43.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I assume it's Tangrowth nothing else would be able to check it as good as Tangrowth does.
Gallade won't have any mon that can completely shut it down that's what people need to understand due to the versatility of move pool Psychic/Fighting/Dark/Grass/Ice
alongside the Sharpness boost to Slicing moves ex:
[Night Slash/Leaf Blade]

252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 112-132 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Slowbro is one of these answers I dont think it's an answer as much as a hit and go check. Which opens the door on how people would say Slowbro is strong and broken, to me the Dugtrio stalls are ones who will benefit from having Slowbro, but if Dugtrio wasn't there I believe Tyranitar would be unlocked and do a nice job handling Slowbro.
 

[caioxlive13]

19 minutes ago, ArtOfKilling said:

If I remember correctly that vote was due to the unexplained buff from 1.3 to 1.4 which made calculations unviable. I genuinely think TC members agreed for the reset back to 1.5 not because they preferred it that way but more off how does 1.4 make sense. I think the nerf to 1.3 was fair, but the reset back again to how it was when it dropped while we still didn't get a decent answer to Gallade is what doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 76-91 (36.7 - 43.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I assume it's Tangrowth nothing else would be able to check it as good as Tangrowth does.
Gallade won't have any mon that can completely shut it down that's what people need to understand due to the versatility of move pool Psychic/Fighting/Dark/Grass/Ice
alongside the Sharpness boost to Slicing moves ex:
[Night Slash/Leaf Blade]

252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 112-132 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Slowbro is one of these answers I dont think it's an answer as much as a hit and go check. Which opens the door on how people would say Slowbro is strong and broken, to me the Dugtrio stalls are ones who will benefit from having Slowbro, but if Dugtrio wasn't there I believe Tyranitar would be unlocked and do a nice job handling Slowbro.
 

Legendarys could also be on the list. Some of them cannot enter on monthly rotation, like Heatran(Not a answer to Gallade) and Cresselia(Can work if Gallade is not running Night Slash), Second one being more interessing since it make the 4mss even stronger for Gallade. (No night slash = Cresselia check him, No Ice Punch = Mons that fear Ice punch switch safetly, No Leaf Blade = Good luck breaking some Water/Ground or pure Water. If use SD/Agility sets then it would have 1 coverage only making their situation even worse, so Scarf is locked into place, allowing setup sweepers to switch into a resist and spam setupping moves.) 

Edited April 27, 2024 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

14 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

While I understand that for consistency they have 8 PP, this affects the metagame in a bad way, this increases the viability of Regenerator mons and Wish mons which were already very viable when recovery moves had 16 PP but reduces the viability of other defensive mons, it also affects the viability of some setup sweepers like Reuniclus or Sigilyph. This change adds nothing positive. A similar case are the gems which still have their 50% boost instead of the 30% and this is a good thing because they become useless with a 30% boost. Returning the recovery moves to 16 PP is just a single change and would affect positively every tier, I believe this is a very good reason to do it.

I personally no longer care about the recovery pp nerf; it is what it is. However, your point about gems is imo very good; if devs want to follow the new gens as much as possible, why are gems still at 50% and not 30%. It's not like 30% gems are going to be broken and therefore we should keep them at 50%. Nerfing recovery pp while keeping gems at 50% is very inconsistent imo.

[caioxlive13]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

I personally no longer care about the recovery pp nerf; it is what it is. However, your point about gems is imo very good; if devs want to follow the new gens as much as possible, why are gems still at 50% and not 30%. It's not like 30% gems are going to be broken and therefore we should keep them at 50%. Nerfing recovery pp while keeping gems at 50% is very inconsistent imo.

I think they (Devs and possibly TC) decide which changes to follow in current gens and which don't. Some mechanics are likely to stay except if are too bad, and a redesign can make them good(Hail to Snow, slight increase their utility although it still aren't extremelly good) or if they believe that the current version is too broken that the nerfed one is better for balancing.
- Gems although considered broken on Gen 5 OU, here for some reason it isn't; Is something we already know how to play against. No reason at all to change
- Some moves we still had the old versions like Knock off: The new ones are too broken to change. On the other hand, how TP and Rapid Spin works now aren't Broken and the versions we had before was honestly trash so the rework was welcome.
- For PP recovery nerf, i think that the problem was the stalls, holding matches for 60min and exploting the tiebreaker, which is not something intended, and could be even worse with new toys such as Amoongus Regen and Gliscor Poison Heal. Nowadays, we see that this nerf wasn't enough and the exploit persists. In my opinion, the PP can be changed back to 16, if the tiebreak is reworked. 

[Rache]

6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I personally no longer care about the recovery pp nerf; it is what it is. However, your point about gems is imo very good; if devs want to follow the new gens as much as possible, why are gems still at 50% and not 30%. It's not like 30% gems are going to be broken and therefore we should keep them at 50%. Nerfing recovery pp while keeping gems at 50% is very inconsistent imo.

The only legitimately obtainable Gem after gen 5 is Normal Gem, making the current implementation the only canon one for the majority of them. We don't consider changes made to scrapped items to be real until they can be used in the mainline games without cheating.

[Munya]

As it currently stands Shaymin will be retested in UU and Yanmega will be quickbanned to BL2 at the start of the next month.

[RysPicz]

27 minutes ago, Munya said:

As it currently stands Shaymin will be retested in UU and Yanmega will be quickbanned to BL2 at the start of the next month.

That's good. How about Dugtrio?

[Munya]

Its not being touched unless someone who previously voted against banning it changes there mind/asks for it to reasonably have the outcome change and or the end of the season.

[Godhelll]

 We're bringing Shaymin back down, why not, but for sure we'll run into exactly the same issues as when he was banned a few months ago. Seed Flare's SpeDef drop will still remain problematic.

 

It's good that Yanmega stays in UU, he had no place in NU.

 

Regarding Dugtrio, something should need to happen, especially since recently Dugtrio's movepool has ridiculously increased by gaining an  inappropriate access to Endeavor, among other things

 

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by Godhelll

[Ziiiiio]

Dugtrio now could trap more pokemon which he should not to.

 

Endeavor+eq kills chansey（0hp iv）, eq kills mienshao after 1 turn life orb recoil damage. With smack down it even kills Zapdos. With sash+endeavor, it could stops cm Suicune and Reuniclus sweep the game.

 

In my opinion, Dugtrio could keep it's role to do the counter play: ttar, zone, volcarona, kabutops etc. So most of time it should becomes useless just like it was two years ago with Dugtrio.

 

When it wasnt 100 atk and no Endeavor, it was fine. We could just nerf it back, if it is still not healthy, ban it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luke]

 

 

I am tired of seeing this everywhere it's sickening 😞

 

0 Reliable eq resist, 0 reliable volt resistances... These teams sacrifice any competitive integrity and go full on matchup fish. How is this healthy? I thought shuffling tournaments was supposed to stop matchup fishing, then you allow this nonsense, it does make me question what the hell the vision is for PVP

Edited April 29, 2024 by Luke

[SoftCreamyFluff]

On 4/27/2024 at 12:18 AM, Rache said:

Returning it to 1.5x was the result of a 5-1 tier council vote in late November, unrelated to the legendary birds. To my understanding it was largely the belief that the initial ban/nerf was too hasty mixed with a dislike for 1.4x on principle.

 

We'll be introducing some more answers to Gallade with the raid update. Although we'd (devs) prefer to keep it in the tier until then to avoid the disruptive process of removing then reintroducing it soon after, the tier council is still allowed to ban it if they believe that it's too broken to wait. You're welcome to make a case for a ban in the OU discussion request thread.

Leaf Blade Gallade is slashing through Slowbro and Alomomola...so Regenerator Ho-Oh confirmed?

 

[VadimEmpoleon]

12 hours ago, Munya said:

Its not being touched unless someone who previously voted against banning it changes there mind/asks for it to reasonably have the outcome change and or the end of the season.

Does this mean that if at least one of the 3? (not sure how many voted for it to stay) TC that voted for it to stay in OU changed their mind a discussion for it would start now before the end of the season?

[Shadow]

45 minutes ago, SoftCreamyFluff said:

Leaf Blade Gallade is slashing through Slowbro and Alomomola...so Regenerator Ho-Oh confirmed?

 

Ig they do refer to Tangrowth/Slowbro-King yeah

[Munya]

1 hour ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Does this mean that if at least one of the 3? (not sure how many voted for it to stay) TC that voted for it to stay in OU changed their mind a discussion for it would start now before the end of the season?

I would be fine with it yes.

[RysPicz]

33 minutes ago, Munya said:

I would be fine with it yes.

Good.

 

@tierlist council

 

do your job for once maybe?

[DoubleJ]

17 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Good.

 

@tierlist council

 

do your job for once maybe?

We do our job every day fam. Sometimes telling the community you're being silly is the most important part kek. 

 

But on a more serious note, there's some convo brewing and one of the members who voted against Dug is no longer here and has been replaced. So I assume that's grounds enough to kick off another round of "Dugtrio bad!" for the nth time. 

[RysPicz]

Just now, DoubleJ said:

Sometimes telling the community you're being silly is the most important part kek. 

"Telling the community" more like "telling Caio" but ok I can understand

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

But on a more serious note, there's some convo brewing and one of the members who voted against Dug is no longer here and has been replaced. So I assume that's grounds enough to kick off another round of "Dugtrio bad!" for the nth time. 

That's some really good news, hoping to see some results soon.

[Luke]

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

But on a more serious note, there's some convo brewing and one of the members who voted against Dug is no longer here and has been replaced. So I assume that's grounds enough to kick off another round of "Dugtrio bad!" for the nth time. 

@FlacuSkye

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by Luke

[Thenavarro]

Yanmega NU ??????

[DarylDixon]

We have to wait Tomorrow for the Movment stuff? Last  change was updated early