[UU Discussion] Blissey

[FlacuSkye]

What is this?

Blissey unexpectedly dropped to Under Used by usage recently, this thread is being opened to discuss its presence in the metagame as the Tier Council considers it may be a banworthy Pokemon.

                 

 

What to know?
 

Blissey's astronomical, godly base HP and great special defense makes it a meta-defining Pokemon, providing a plethora of support moves, namely Wish and Teleport. It already became the fourth most used Pokemon with 20%~ usage, showing how good it is. Being able to stomach virtually all special moves, it can fit in a lot of archetypes; Teleport lets it become a strong pivot, Wish provides longevity to the whole team, fully healing almost all Pokemon in the tier and has access to Seismic Toss and Toxic for those who try to get a free switch in. Furthermore, having Natural Cure makes it even harder to wear down.

 

These traits make Blissey sound like a tremendous defensive and supporting Pokemon in UU environment. On the surface level, Blissey could be a contender to a possible Uber characteristics in UU tier for "Defensive Uber Characteristics" and "Support Uber Characteristics". However, if we look at the definitions of each Uber criterion:

 

"Defensive Uber"

A Pokémon that in common battle conditions is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame with little effort or compromise.

 

The Tier Council is not convinced Blissey falls into the criterion of Defensive Uber Characteristics. Because Blissey is beaten by every physical sweeper, plenty of mixed sweepers and even some special sweepers (such as Growth Venusaur, Calm Mind Sigilyph, Calm Mind Xatu, some variants of Porygon-Z), it is not clear that Blissey can actually wall a significant portion of the UU metagame.

 

"Support Uber"

A Pokémon that in common battle conditions can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep or stall.

 

For Support Uber Characteristics, Blissey does not really fulfil either of these two options. Blissey does not make it easier for Pokemon to sweep. It can surely provide them with plenty of new opportunities to sweep with Wish + Teleport but the existence of Blissey suddenly does not push a sweeper to perform sweeps they could not have performed before. The case could be made that Blissey makes substantially easier for Pokemon to stall. What's important to notice that in current metagame, Blissey is not even the Pokemon of choice for a Normal-type Special Defensive wall in most stall teams. According to usage statistics, Clefable is often preferred for this role in stall-teams specifically - due to its ability Unaware. While Blissey also performs well in stall teams, if it is not clearly even the best Pokemon of choice in stall-teams for its role, it is difficult to argue for Support Uber Characteristics either "for making substantially easier for Pokemon to stall".

 

That, almost by default, leaves Blissey possibly banworthy under unhealthiness. The Tier Council believes Blissey could be deemed unhealthy in UU environment. This is mostly because of how many teams Blissey can fit and how much work it can get done in such a large variety of teams. What makes Blissey so great is its enormous special defensive bulk. It turns Blissey into a momentum carrying Wish-machine. While most pivots with Wish often would have to heal itself after switching in, Blissey can immediately threaten to heal its teammate after switching in (because it is still be able to survive another pivot switch-in against a special sweeper). This is what puts Blissey so clearly ahead of Pokemon like Clefable in most teams. Over 20% usage for a supportive Pokemon like this so early in its debut shows that the value Blissey brings can arguably be too much for a healthy metagame and teambuilding. Furthermore, a strong argument could be made that Blissey renders other supporting Pokemon in UU tier rather useless, which also could be deemed as an unhealthy trait from metagame perspective.

 

The point of this discussion thread is to invoke discussion regarding Blissey's presence in UU metagame. Is it too good not to use? Is Blissey giving too much momentum and value in the teams its being used? Is there sufficient amount of counterplay or ways to make Blissey less valuable?

Below is Blissey's most common moveset.
 

Blissey @ Leftovers  
Ability: Natural Cure  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD  | 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature  
- Seismic Toss/Flamethrower/Toxic/Stealth Rock  
- Wish/Toxic/Stealth Rock/Heal Bell  
- Soft-Boiled/Protect  
- Teleport

Some damage calcs to show Blissey's bulk
 

Spoiler

Venusaur 
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 118-140 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- 4.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 142-168 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nidoking 
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 83-99 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 87-105 (24 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 148-177 (40.8 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raikou 
+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 82-97 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 110-130 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Salamence 
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 115-136 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 97-115 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- 36.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yanmega 
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 82-97 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 69-82 (19 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Porygon-Z 
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 110-130 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 146-172 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ludicolo 
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 122-146 (33.7 - 40.3%) -- 41.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 117-140 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 56-68 (15.4 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
Shaymin 
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 87-103 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 172-203 (47.5 - 56%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

But still, Blissey is weak to physical and mixed attackers.
 

Spoiler

Nidoking 
4 Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 195-231 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Feraligatr 
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 192-227 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 289-341 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 386-454 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Salamence 
4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 169-200 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sigilyph 
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 200-238 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bisharp 
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 225-265 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 322-380 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 256-303 (70.7 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Bisharp Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 169-199 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Bisharp Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 242-286 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 193-228 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Durant 
252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 160-189 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 320-378 (88.3 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 478-564 (132 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Heracross 
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 354-416 (97.7 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Machamp 
252+ Atk Machamp Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 252-296 (69.6 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 372-440 (102.7 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Medicham
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 444-524 (122.6 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Entei
252 Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 207-244 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Feel free to discuss.

Edited August 7 by FlacuSkye

[TohnR]

16 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

4 Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 195-231 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

How is this supposed to show that blissey is "weak" to mixed attackers ? 
It just proves Blissey doesn't care about super effective physical 120 base power coverage moves coming from a special mixed attacker ...

 

For reference, here's the same calc with Umbreon, one of the overall bulkiest mons in the game (95/110/130) :

4 Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 112-133 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yea you're reading this right, it's almost the same damage output ... 💀

 

The only notable cons / flaws that Blissey seems to have (according to the calcs above) would be :

- Blissey could be prone to Pursuit from Choice Band Krookodile or Gem Bisharp but it has Teleport and a lot of supporting moves if it wishes, so it's never gonna be a free trap

- Blissey is kinda bad at handling Sigilyph which is the main Psyshock / Stored Power abuser

- Mixmence is shredding Blissey but honestly that's not like Mixmence had any switch ins in the tier anyway

 

What I conclude from this is that this post is showing that Blissey is great on most occasions and doesn't have much counterplay available

Those calcs even reveal that Choice Band Entei couldn't pressure it out or beat it with Sacred Fire if you're facing the Wish + Protect set, as it gets PP wasted before it could ever kill it

I'm not gonna lie, that's insane ...

 

Seem deserving of ban but let's see if anyone else has a strong argument not to 🙂 

Edited August 8 by TohnR

[Scootter]

Blissey in a vacuum isn't broken per se but I think the problem becomes bigger when it is a very strong part of overall defensive cores. Something super common right now is blissey, hippo or quag, rotom mow, poli, fight resist + breaker (bish, hera, etc). This isn't the only viable team/core blissey can fit on by any means but it is something commonly used right now on ladder (TYKD and AgnCunha play something similar most games). 

 

While on paper something like heracross or sigi can break through this team it becomes more difficult over the course of longer games, which blissey thrives in. Sure hera might do 55% to a phys def hippo (252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 106-126 (49.3 - 58.6%)), that hippo is one wish away from stopping the heracross on another occasion (which is already on a timer due to burn chip, rocks, helmet, sandstorm, etc. etc.). 

 

Not to mention that something like CM raikou (along with almost every other special attacker besides LO psyshock sigi) is invalidated by blissey's presence in the tier, needing +4 to 2hko with aura sphere. Yea sure mixmence breaks it but like @TohnRsaid, mixmence breaks most teams on its own (a whole different issue imo). 

 

Personally i'm still on the fence about blissey's presence in the tier, but would like to see it go. It's rather annoying and provides so much for bulkier/balance teams through teleport that at times it limits what kind of breaker you need to fit on to a team. 

 

Edited August 7 by Scootter

[MrBoyy]

I personally feel that salamence and entei are both more "broken" than blissey in UU.

There can be arguments made for blissey being too strong for the UU meta; I personally do not feel it is too strong. However, I do not understand how people can complain about Blissey being too strong when UU has had a salamence and entei problem for far longer and there hasn't been an official discussion about either of them.

Y'all can talk about Blissey if you want, but I would like salamence and entei to be added to the conversation as well.

[subzi]

@TohnR is spot on here. There is no world where a special wall should be able to withstand and pp stall choice banded Entei. The calcs provided are irrelevant. They show that the only real answer to Blissey is a super effective fighting move, which can be easily accounted for. @Scootter provides the most common core that is a copy and paste among the top UU players. These players usually have at least 3 switch ins to a fighting move. I am not discrediting these players at all as they are all great players. They simply know how to utilize this monster. Anyone with even a little bit of experience knows Blissey does not belong anywhere outside of OU.

[Frag]

im almost sure bliss cannot wall entei, chansey barely can, im too lazy to calc but he didnt show adamant which is 80% usage, also burn must be in the calc

[subzi]

12 minutes ago, Frag said:

im almost sure bliss cannot wall entei, chansey barely can, im too lazy to calc but he didnt show adamant which is 80% usage, also burn must be in the calc

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 228-268 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

 

Blissey will never wall Entei. But with protect, it can drain 6-7 sacred fires depending on rolls. This is also assuming the first sacred fire burns. If all things go in the Blissey’s favor (low rolls, no early burn), it can potentially require all 8 sacred fires to KO.

[TohnR]

47 minutes ago, Frag said:

im almost sure bliss cannot wall entei, chansey barely can, im too lazy to calc but he didnt show adamant which is 80% usage, also burn must be in the calc

I was just saying his calc show that EVEN a wallbreaker like Band Entei (yes it's Jolly here) is not powerful enough to break it.
Of course if you get an instant burn or play Adamant, Blissey has to go, but it can at least PP waste Entei a bit in exchange for some of its HP
That's not what I called being weak / pressured by physical attackers
But anyway, there's not many Pokémon neutral to fire that can tank/beat Adamant Entei anyway. Especially specially defensive oriented ones 🙂 

Edited August 8 by TohnR

[TheKrimsonKang]

My only real problem with using mons like sigi, venusaur pory as counters is they require 1 or in some cases 2 turns of set up in order to turn the tides on blissey and in order to do so all but venusaur need psyshock.  If you see a setup psyshock user coming in against blissey you know they only have one play ; set up and psyshock. Blissey can easily just teleport out into an ally like sableye to encore the set up or psyshock rendering it useless or into bisharp or another sucker punch user to just kill it with sucker. Venusaur must set up growth in the sun in order to even consider checking blissey, if they growth you can teleport into encore or a faster revenge sweeper before any harm is done to blissey at all. I do wonder if maybe teleport is the crux of the issue, without teleport (which is not even a move  the chansey line gets in gen 5 iirc) blissey seems a fairy manageable passive special wall. It is forced to predict and hard swap giving some abillity to predict and play around it. however the abillity to just at worst yeet out on its only checks after taking 60% , heal status and then force them on the back foot seems unhealthy to me given some of the other heavy stall mons in UU and its synergy with offensive breakers.  Most of these calcs on here seem to speak for themself some of the heaviest hitters in the tier only manage 2hko assuming blissey doesn't just expect the swap and toxic/ softboil/ protect/ wish spam. Also blissey is 3rd with 24.52% not 4th with 20 usage to my knowledge unless in game stats are not updated and it fell off. Also "Blissey does not make it easier for Pokemon to sweep. It can surely provide them with plenty of new opportunities to sweep with Wish + Teleport " that seems like a very strange way to read the qualifications. Baton passing stats in this game is nerfed so how exactly is one capable of "boosting " a sweeper other than repeatedly bringing its hp to full and TPing into it or setting favorable conditions like sunnor tailwind.These seems fairly helpful to me. Then you say" According to usage statistics, Clefable is often preferred for this role in stall-teams specifically - due to its ability Unaware" Im not sure what you are trying to say here but it seems a tad disingenuous. Clefable is to my count 32 spaces below blissey. I wouldn't call ranked 32 places less very comparable and definitely wouldnt say that that makes clefable "often preferred." With that being said I appreciate the time you have taken to collect and write out all this data, it goes a very VERY long way towards moving this discussion along when the numbers are out in the open. Much love and respect - TheKrimsonKang 

Edited August 8 by TheKrimsonKang

[Justa102]

Whether or not Blissey should be banned, I will still give my opinion to justify my reasonings because I think that Blissey should not be banned, rather I think Blissey is so commonly used because UU is a terrible tier to play in.

Nobody can deny that Blissey is a strong wall, perhaps too strong, but based on my personal experience in both teambuilding and playing the game, Blissey is too good not to use. I mainly play balance myself, yet whenever I teambuild for UU I go back to the drawing board after I find major weaknesses in my teams.

Lets say Blissey gets banned, the good sp walls that I can think of on top of my head are Umbreon, Snorlax and Tentacruel, all three of these are no doubt great options,yet when I build a balance team, I want atleast a wall that can take sp attacks reliably from if not all, then most sp attackers.

Umbreon is amazing, but even with a fully spdefensive 252HP/252SPDEF build it cannot withstand the likes of Yanmega, or weather-abusers such as Ludicolo in rain after taking rocks dmg
Snorlax is also amazing , it can tank some of the threats that Umbreon cannot, but it does not have reliable recovery, Rest is used but it often all comes down to sleep talk RNG,  I usually only use the set Curse/Body Slam/Rest/Sleep Talk, having only body slam as the attacking move can be annoying
Tentacruel is good, but it cant be 100% reliable, it can be broken through rain's seismitoad with EQ, or another example such as Golduck's Psyshock and Rotom's tbolts

on a balance team, I would rather only limit it to 1 spdef wall if I could, of course this is not the case for stall teams where you can put a billion walls on there and make your opponent hate you so much. This is why I have to pair the wall with an attacker with prio such as Ambipom or Bisharp, but if the spwall cannot do its job, then this makes it harder for the rest of the team to do theirs. Teambuilding a balance team requires me to think of a bunch of scenarios, I have to worry about weather, and also worry about breaking stall, which makes it restricted

This is where Blissey shines, it can cover the flaws of pretty much all of these three, since it can tank very reliabily and have good recovery, but I also understand the argument of it being too good that it makes it annoying to fight against, since it does its job very well.

Of course, this could be me just being a trash player who makes terrible plays, but I would still like to give my view as someone who has played UU before.


 

[VadimEmpoleon]

Blissey's arrival to UU balanced many things in the tier, some special sweepers like Special Salamence, Raikou or Specs Yanmega were too strong and didn't have many answers to them before.

 

Most special sweepers can still do their job or be useful even with Blissey's presence so Blissey didn't render them useless:

 

 

Spoiler

• Rotom Heat and Rotom Mow can still use Trick to pass a choice item to Blissey or they can simply use Volt Switch to gain momentum, they can also defeat Blissey with a NP set as long as Blissey doesn't run Toxic and if Blissey chooses to run Toxic she will usually need to give up on being able to heal her teammates with Wish+TP because apart from Toxic she will usually run Seismic Toss, Psywave or Flamethrower therefore she won't be able to have Wish, Teleport and Protect/Soft-Boiled in the same moveset.
• Porygon-Z similarly to Rotom can trick it or defeat it with a NP set.
• Shaymin and Roserade can use Leech Seed to force it to use Teleport or to switch, they can also use Sleep Powder to prevent Blissey from getting momentum with Teleport.
• Yanmega can gain momentum with U-turn.
• Jolteon, Raikou and Magneton can gain momentum with Volt Switch and some specific Raikou sets probably can defeat Blissey.

Other special defensive or supportive mons are still useful even with Blissey's presence and can't be completely replaced by Blissey, Umbreon, unlike Blissey, can deal with Sigilyph and it's still a very good option for many teams because of its great special resistance and a better physical resistance than Blissey. Snorlax despite being used as a special defensive mon still has a very different role to Blissey.

 

It's true that she can restore her teammates health with ease but to do it consistently she will need to run Wish, Teleport and Protect/Soft-Boiled which leaves only one extra move, this makes Blissey predictable, also if I was playing against Blissey and decided to spam special moves knowing Blissey will just come to the field and tank them that's on me for not trying to predict it.

 

Regarding Blissey being able to withstand a CB Entei I don't see anything wrong with it, Umbreon already did it and better:

Spoiler

252 Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 207-244 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 228-268 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 118-141 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Entei itself was deemed banworthy by some people and Blissey just adds a way of preventing it from sweeping, it can't even come in a switch to stop it and it needs Protect+Wish to do so.

Also this example is not the best one, most physical sweepers have more than 8 PP in their main physical move, this is one of the few exceptions. I will add some more that were not included in the main post:

Spoiler

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 288-340 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 210-247 (58 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 322-380 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 175-207 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 170-210 (46.9 - 58%) -- approx. 87.9% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Dragon Gem Salamence Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 348-409 (96.1 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

This said, I don't think Blissey should be banned from UU.

[Bertolfoso]

10 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Blissey's arrival to UU balanced many things in the tier, some special sweepers like Special Salamence, Raikou or Specs Yanmega were too strong and didn't have many answers to them before.

 

Most special sweepers can still do their job or be useful even with Blissey's presence so Blissey didn't render them useless:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

• Rotom Heat and Rotom Mow can still use Trick to pass a choice item to Blissey or they can simply use Volt Switch to gain momentum, they can also defeat Blissey with a NP set as long as Blissey doesn't run Toxic and if Blissey chooses to run Toxic she will usually need to give up on being able to heal her teammates with Wish+TP because apart from Toxic she will usually run Seismic Toss, Psywave or Flamethrower therefore she won't be able to have Wish, Teleport and Protect/Soft-Boiled in the same moveset.
• Porygon-Z similarly to Rotom can trick it or defeat it with a NP set.
• Shaymin and Roserade can use Leech Seed to force it to use Teleport or to switch, they can also use Sleep Powder to prevent Blissey from getting momentum with Teleport.
• Yanmega can gain momentum with U-turn.
• Jolteon, Raikou and Magneton can gain momentum with Volt Switch and some specific Raikou sets probably can defeat Blissey.

Other special defensive or supportive mons are still useful even with Blissey's presence and can't be completely replaced by Blissey, Umbreon, unlike Blissey, can deal with Sigilyph and it's still a very good option for many teams because of its great special resistance and a better physical resistance than Blissey. Snorlax despite being used as a special defensive mon still has a very different role to Blissey.

 

It's true that she can restore her teammates health with ease but to do it consistently she will need to run Wish, Teleport and Protect/Soft-Boiled which leaves only one extra move, this makes Blissey predictable, also if I was playing against Blissey and decided to spam special moves knowing Blissey will just come to the field and tank them that's on me for not trying to predict it.

 

Regarding Blissey being able to withstand a CB Entei I don't see anything wrong with it, Umbreon already did it and better:

  Reveal hidden contents

252 Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 207-244 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 228-268 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 118-141 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Entei itself was deemed banworthy by some people and Blissey just adds a way of preventing it from sweeping, it can't even come in a switch to stop it and it needs Protect+Wish to do so.

Also this example is not the best one, most physical sweepers have more than 8 PP in their main physical move, this is one of the few exceptions. I will add some more that were not included in the main post:

  Reveal hidden contents

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 288-340 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 210-247 (58 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 322-380 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 175-207 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 170-210 (46.9 - 58%) -- approx. 87.9% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Dragon Gem Salamence Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 348-409 (96.1 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

This said, I don't think Blissey should be banned from UU.

Literally took every word out of my mouth, I agree completely with this 

[pachima]

Can we please stop using volt switch/U-turn as an argument? Its nonsense, incredibly wrong and, if extrapolated to a general conversation, we wouldn't ever have defensive problematic Pokemon in any tier in any format in any game. 

 

Shall I play that same stupid game as well?

"Hey, Landorus is fine in NU. Look, it cant even wall a pachirisu, which just U-turns away into a froslass or something. See? Pachirisu breaks Landorus. Can we add Landorus and get it to NU please? Just look at the plethora of Pokemon that U-turns on the switch into something that pressures Landorus."

 

...

[VadimEmpoleon]

19 minutes ago, pachima said:

Can we please stop using volt switch/U-turn as an argument? Its nonsense, incredibly wrong and, if extrapolated to a general conversation, we wouldn't ever have defensive problematic Pokemon in any tier in any format in any game. 

 

Shall I play that same stupid game as well?

"Hey, Landorus is fine in NU. Look, it cant even wall a pachirisu, which just U-turns away into a froslass or something. See? Pachirisu breaks Landorus. Can we add Landorus and get it to NU please? Just look at the plethora of Pokemon that U-turns on the switch into something that pressures Landorus."

 

...

I used it as an argument to prove that the special sweepers used in UU are still useful even with Blissey's presence, I didn't include any mon that I don't consider viable in UU, also in Blissey's case there are many sweepers that can delete it, I am just saying that some of the ones that can't do it on their own can still gain momentum thanks to these moves. If every single sweeper mon had Volt Switch or U-turn but couldn't defeat Blissey it would be wrong of course but this is not the case.

 

Most special sweepers being able to be useful even with Blissey's presence doesn't prove Blissey is fine in UU and it was never my intention to prove it by just mentioning these moves, that is why more arguments were used. Same would apply for the Landorus example.

[DoubleJ]

Blissey is set up bait for Sigilyph, Spiritomb, Clefable, Xatu, and Cofagrigus, so it's only a matter of time before the tier shifts towards a bulkier, slower paced game. All of these mons also have good natural bulk and there isn't a dominant dark type that can threaten them like in OU. 

 

I anticipate some adjustment and we'll see how things are in a few more weeks when we can really understand if Blissey is too much or not. 

[TheKrimsonKang]

8 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Blissey is set up bait for Sigilyph, Spiritomb, Clefable, Xatu, and Cofagrigus, so it's only a matter of time before the tier shifts towards a bulkier, slower paced game. All of these mons also have good natural bulk and there isn't a dominant dark type that can threaten them like in OU. 

 

 

 Its pretty obvious if any of those mons come in against blissey they are gonna set up, and cof isnt even a set up mon unless you mean hazards. If they come in all you have to do is teleport out of them and into bisharp or sableye or whatever you like really. Also no dominant dark type? Bisharp is the 6th most used mon in the Tier/ second most used physical sweeper, and its paired with blissey 34% of the time its used.. ..

[pachima]

9 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Blissey is set up bait for Sigilyph, Spiritomb, Clefable, Xatu, and Cofagrigus, so it's only a matter of time before the tier shifts towards a bulkier, slower paced game. All of these mons also have good natural bulk and there isn't a dominant dark type that can threaten them like in OU. 

 

I anticipate some adjustment and we'll see how things are in a few more weeks when we can really understand if Blissey is too much or not. 

JJ, I adore you but are you implying current UU can be slower? Late tournament rounds are already a stallfest. Ofc, Blissey doesn't get to visibly shine much in a game where nothing dies for 2 hours. But that's a symptom we are dismissing because for some reason we have normalized games being 1-2 hours long.

Also, the "there isn't a dominant dark type" phrase is not very accurate.

[Scootter]

11 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

 All of these mons also have good natural bulk and there isn't a dominant dark type that can threaten them like in OU. 

Bisharp exists btw, and it’s pretty damn good

Not to mention despite Blissey being “setup bait” for those certain mons disregards its 5 other teammates. 

 

I think it’s also more important to look at the value something like Blissey provides to a team and not “oh xyz mon can calm mind on it, therefore it’s fine” 

Edited August 9 by Scootter

[Lilyrain]

Not sure why you're even having this conversation at all. To my knowledge Blissey has only left OU for 1 generation since its inception and has also been a staple on Ubers teams. The only reason it ever even went down to UU is because Eviolite Chansey is near identical and just slightly better in a lot of situations. Blissey is not much worse than Chansey, yet I would bet my life that if Chansey came to UU right now, there would be an outcry you could hear from space and it would be banned immediately.

I thought this was just a silly experiment.... If you're saying you NEED Blissey to check certain mons in UU, then the conversation to be had would be to boot those mons from UU as well, not to keep Blissey. PokeMMO's power level may be much higher than OG gen 5, but we have all of these gens of history to look back on. Blissey is too strong to NOT be in OU in formats where mons are legal that hit so much harder than anything we have.

[OrangeManiac]

3 hours ago, Lilyrain said:

Not sure why you're even having this conversation at all. To my knowledge Blissey has only left OU for 1 generation since its inception and has also been a staple on Ubers teams. The only reason it ever even went down to UU is because Eviolite Chansey is near identical and just slightly better in a lot of situations. Blissey is not much worse than Chansey, yet I would bet my life that if Chansey came to UU right now, there would be an outcry you could hear from space and it would be banned immediately.

I thought this was just a silly experiment.... If you're saying you NEED Blissey to check certain mons in UU, then the conversation to be had would be to boot those mons from UU as well, not to keep Blissey. PokeMMO's power level may be much higher than OG gen 5, but we have all of these gens of history to look back on. Blissey is too strong to NOT be in OU in formats where mons are legal that hit so much harder than anything we have.

There's no silly experiments here, we are just abiding by the Tiering Policies we have set for the competitive play in this game. If a Pokemon has enough usage % in OU, it is OU. If it has less than the required amount of usage, it becomes UU. We are not hand-picking Pokemon just out of pure whim, nobody went and said "yo, it would be funny if we tried Blissey in UU just for the fun of it". It did not reach enough usage in PokeMMO OU so according to our system it becomes UU. We recognize Blissey in UU environment might be problematic so we opened a discussion to see whether the community believes Blissey is bad for the UU tier. Blissey is being treated just like any other Pokemon, and ran through the same system as any other Pokemon. We also do not use Smogon's tiering decisions for the very reasons you stated - due to notable differences in movepools (among other things) the power dynamics in tiers may be vastly different from Gen 5 Smogon to PokeMMO. The only thing taken from Smogon is this exact tiering system we use, or it is at least heavily influenced by it.

 

Edited August 9 by OrangeManiac

[DoubleJ]

Ok, let me walk back my comment just a bit:

 

There is no dark-type that can outright eliminate all of these threats. Bishop really only threatens Sigilyph and Xatu who run into 4MSS and can't afford to carry Substitute to outplay Bisharp and Blissey. They can however run mono-Psyshock and use WoW to cripple it on an easily predicted Sucker Punch, much like Spiritomb.

 

And to discredit NP+HP Fighting Cofagrigus is a damn shame. 

 

Bisharp while very strong, is easily predicted and can be outplayed.

 

 

EDIT: You mean y'all don't have access to WoW??? TC OP.

 

JK, meant Psycho Shift with Flame Orb

Edited August 9 by DoubleJ

[Doctor]

21 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

They can however run mono-Psyshock and use WoW to cripple it on an easily predicted Sucker Punch, much like Spiritomb.

b-but they can't learn WoW...

[DoubleJ]

Made my edit, Psycho Shift not WoW, but same result. 

[Lilyrain]

57 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

There's no silly experiments here, we are just abiding by the Tiering Policies we have set for the competitive play in this game. If a Pokemon has enough usage % in OU, it is OU. If it has less than the required amount of usage, it becomes UU.

 

I understand it was an automatic tier move by usage. It's a shame we don't have in-between tiers like UU BL.

 

The greater point I'm trying to make is that if by some freak miracle Scizor or Serperior (or strong legendaries like the Latis in the future), fell below usage in OU, you wouldn't seriously consider letting them loose on UU. You would manually intervene. Blissey is on that same level. So by not intervening, I thought of allowing the move as an experiment.

 

My argument is that it can stand side-by-side with the strongest Pokemon ever conceived to this day, had great success in many Ubers tier and never left OU in all but 1 of past and future generations.. Even if our movepools are larger, and our game therefore doesn't directly compare to Smogon tier lists, you can't overcome this fact.

 

Either way I don't have a horse in the race, I just think it's funny to pretend there even needs to be a discussion. If UU has gotten so bad it needs Blissey to keep it balanced, may god have mercy on UU players 🙏

[OrangeManiac]

12 minutes ago, Lilyrain said:

I understand it was an automatic tier move by usage. It's a shame we don't have in-between tiers like UU BL.

We do. We have Borderline, which is for Pokemon not OU by usage but banned from UU for being too strong. You can see the list of Pokemon here.

 

In the in-game Pokedex, they are all listed OU/UU/NU because BL/BL2 are not actually a tier - just a ban list from the lower tier.

 

Edit: Even if a Pokemon later gained enough usage to be in the high tier, it is still kept in that list that in case the Pokemon would fall below the needed usage again. In that case, it would not be allowed in the lower tier for being deemed too strong.

 

Also this one is a handy to read as well:

 

 

Edited August 9 by OrangeManiac