gbwead Posted September 27 Posted September 27 2 minutes ago, Necroze said: Stall is the current meta and now dropping togekiss to UU? Bruh Togekiss is one the best stallbreakers in the game.
gbwead Posted September 27 Posted September 27 2 minutes ago, Imperial said: broken because of power creep When the power creep in OU increases, the power creep in UU will also increase. People need to stop fighting this and just grow up really. 5 minutes ago, Imperial said: being too centralizing This only applies to mons currently in UU or mons that were in UU not so long ago. Kabutops and Togekiss have not been UU for like 5 years. This statement does not apply to them, so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to even prevent them from dropping. All the people in this thread complaining about these 2 moving down shown a serious lack of perspective, don't understand tiering at all and only care about preserving their beloved UU tier (which is shit btw). bobliu and Whated 2
VadimEmpoleon Posted September 27 Posted September 27 (edited) Please quick ban Togekiss, I am normally totally opposed to a quick ban without even trying the mon in the tier for at least few days but there is really no need for it in this case. I am not sure why Bronzong is used as an argument to prevent Togekiss from dropping, even if Bronzong stayed it would do nothing. don't underestimate Togekiss, it can break through most slower mons, Bronzong, Gigalith, Umbreon, Blissey, Empoleon can all die without even moving once without needing much luck, access to Nasty Plot+60% flinch is insane and it has a very good bulk and access to Heal Bell. It would be very overcentralizing encouraging the use of some mons like Raikou, Timid Rotom-H or Magneton. It would heavily rely on Air Slash flinches sometimes which would be very uncompetitive. It would easily break through many teams which don't have the right tools for it from my point of view. In other words, it would really deserve the ban unlike overrated Salamence and Entei or weaklings like Shaymin. If someone really thinks it could fit the tier or at least wants to try it I guess it wouldn't hurt testing it for a few days but if it does please do the quick ban if needed during the month. Kabutops would be a good rain abuser but it has its counters like Poliwrath, Quagsire or Shaymin, I believe it has to be tested at least. Another option would be to remove BL and test it at all, I really see no point in doing this but I am not opposed to it if its done in a fast way with quick bans. I want to ask what do you think would change if everything drops? Porygon2, Staraptor, Lucario and Haxorus are the BL mons that could drop by usage to UU, which ones do you think would be fine in UU and why? I believe everything would just get banned again, Haxorus and Porygon2 are the ones that maybe wouldn't be so broken but I don't see them being healthy for the tier at all. Anyway, if BL is going to be removed do it now or never, Togekiss is dropping now and a new season is about to start, there is no point in doing it later and ruining the tier in the middle of the season. Edited September 27 by VadimEmpoleon Lumiere and Bertolfoso 2
bobliu Posted September 27 Posted September 27 34 minutes ago, gbwead said: If you don't like it, go play with Pachima and his untiered mons. Lmao. But it is truth, one vote from me Cristi 1
Sargeste Posted September 27 Posted September 27 Also on the topic of getting rid of bans, I think the only pokemon that is absolutely 100% worth quickbanning again from UU is Staraptor upon reviewing the tier further. With Bronzong's departure, UU proper has 2 Flying resists in Rhyperior and Rotom-Heat, both of which still despise CB Staraptor. Let loose everything else. Lumiere 1
gbwead Posted September 27 Posted September 27 46 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: Please quick ban Togekiss, I am normally totally opposed to a quick ban without even trying the mon in the tier for at least few days but there is really no need for it in this case. I am not sure why Bronzong is used as an argument to prevent Togekiss from dropping, even if Bronzong stayed it would do nothing. don't underestimate Togekiss, it can break through most slower mons, Bronzong, Gigalith, Umbreon, Blissey, Empoleon can all die without even moving once without needing much luck, access to Nasty Plot+60% flinch is insane and it has a very good bulk and access to Heal Bell. It would be very overcentralizing encouraging the use of some mons like Raikou, Timid Rotom-H or Magneton. It would heavily rely on Air Slash flinches sometimes which would be very uncompetitive. It would easily break through many teams which don't have the right tools for it from my point of view. In other words, it would really deserve the ban unlike overrated Salamence and Entei or weaklings like Shaymin. If someone really thinks it could fit the tier or at least wants to try it I guess it wouldn't hurt testing it for a few days but if it does please do the quick ban if needed during the month. Kabutops would be a good rain abuser but it has its counters like Poliwrath, Quagsire or Shaymin, I believe it has to be tested at least. Another option would be to remove BL and test it at all, I really see no point in doing this but I am not opposed to it if its done in a fast way with quick bans. I want to ask what do you think would change if everything drops? Porygon2, Staraptor, Lucario and Haxorus are the BL mons that could drop by usage to UU, which ones do you think would be fine in UU and why? I believe everything would just get banned again, Haxorus and Porygon2 are the ones that maybe wouldn't be so broken but I don't see them being healthy for the tier at all. Anyway, if BL is going to be removed do it now or never, Togekiss is dropping now and a new season is about to start, there is no point in doing it later and ruining the tier in the middle of the season. 2018 OU/BL list: Arcanine | Blissey | Chandelure | Chansey | Cloyster | Conkeldurr | Dragonite | Darmanitan | Dugtrio | Excadrill | Ferrothorn | Gengar | Gliscor Gyarados | Haxorus | Hippowdon | Hydreigon | Jolteon | Kabutops | Kingdra Lucario | Magnezone | Mamoswine | Mantine | Metagross | Mienshao Milotic | Pelipper | Porygon-Z | Reuniclus | Salamence | Scizor Skarmory | Snorlax | Starmie | Swampert | Tentacruel | Togekiss Tyranitar | Volcarona | Wobbuffet Out of the 41 OU/BL mons of 2018, our current UU tier could have 17 of those. 2018 OU/BL list: Arcanine | Blissey | Chandelure | Chansey | Cloyster | Conkeldurr | Dragonite | Darmanitan | Dugtrio | Excadrill | Ferrothorn | Gengar | Gliscor Gyarados | Haxorus | Hippowdon | Hydreigon | Jolteon | Kabutops | Kingdra Lucario | Magnezone | Mamoswine | Mantine | Metagross | Mienshao Milotic | Pelipper | Porygon-Z | Reuniclus | Salamence | Scizor Skarmory | Snorlax | Starmie | Swampert | Tentacruel | Togekiss Tyranitar | Volcarona | Wobbuffet Out of the remaining 24 OU/BL mons of 2018 that the 2024 UU list does not have access to, 12 of them had a very bad match up vs Togekiss. Most of the remaining 12 mons did not have a great match up vs Togekiss as well, but could revenge kill it after some chip dmg or set up sweep before Togekiss could do anything. However, 2024 UU might not have Tyranitar or Magnezone, but 2024 UU has Rotom and Raikou. We also have new features like CM Blissey, Unaware Clefable, Inner Focus Baton Pass Umbreon, that would be very effective vs Togekiss. UU also lower tier mons that could work vs Togekiss, but were too unviable for 2018 OU like Haze Crobat, Magneton, CM Sigilyph or Bisharp. 2018 OU Wallbreakers are also not as impactful relative to their tier compared to the 2024 UU Wallbreakers which is very apparent when looking at Entei vs Darmanitan or Nidoking vs Gengar. Togekiss might have gotten buffed with CM since 2018, but it also lost 8 Roost PP. Setting up is not as easy as it used to be for Togekiss. Overall, Togekiss should absolutely be tested. There are potential answers that must be evaluated and centralization is something that must be experienced after all. Assuming is not good for tiering. 13 minutes ago, Sargeste said: Also on the topic of getting rid of bans, I think the only pokemon that is absolutely 100% worth quickbanning again from UU is Staraptor upon reviewing the tier further. I kind of agree on that one. Whated, bobliu, Scootter and 2 others 5
Justa102 Posted September 27 Posted September 27 (edited) Why the hell is bronzong being moved back up when mence is still in the tier? Also can we get a decision on the UU bans? blissey has been opened for 2 months, and there are currently 2 more bans threads up... in the same tier Edited September 27 by Justa102 Lucho2 1
Imperial Posted September 27 Posted September 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, gbwead said: When the power creep in OU increases, the power creep in UU will also increase. People need to stop fighting this and just grow up really. This only applies to mons currently in UU or mons that were in UU not so long ago. Kabutops and Togekiss have not been UU for like 5 years. This statement does not apply to them, so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to even prevent them from dropping. All the people in this thread complaining about these 2 moving down shown a serious lack of perspective, don't understand tiering at all and only care about preserving their beloved UU tier (which is shit btw). Then in theory if Togekiss is fine in UU, in general Jirachi should be fine when it releases in OU and Doubles without Heatran since we have Swampert, Zapdos, and Skarmory(?) right? From my point of view it's nothing to do about preserving UU (I've barely played that tier for a while except for occasional tournaments), it's more the fact that on paper UU and NU have been incredibly instable because the community only like to play a small section of Pokemon (e.g. Before Politoed/Ninetales came to UU, the lower tiers were pretty much stable except for the yo-yo between Gligar/Tentacruel etc between NU and UU). I'm assuming if we want to let everything loose in UU and NU, I'm going to stay away from competitive here because I don't trust the process and timing (TC please prove me wrong). The only solution if you were to do this, is you monitor and action each Pokemon after 2-3 days and a Community Combat and/or official tournament, then make a decision immediately afterwards, until you reach a stable tier. As sad as it is, at the moment OU seems to be the most stable tier and that already has a bunch of its own problems. Just play Showdown guys. Edited September 27 by Imperial
Queza Posted September 27 Posted September 27 Y'all smoking too much, surely these changes dont happen
gbwead Posted September 27 Posted September 27 23 minutes ago, Imperial said: As sad as it is, at the moment OU seems to be the most stable tier and that already has a bunch of its own problems. Why would that be sad? By definition, OU should always be the most stable tier. 24 minutes ago, Imperial said: Then in theory if Togekiss is fine in UU, in general Jirachi should be fine when it releases in OU and Doubles without Heatran since we have Swampert, Zapdos, and Skarmory(?) right? I didn't say that Togekiss is fine in UU, but it does look fine based on how it was played historically in PokeMMO. As for OU, I don't know if Jirachi would be fine there; we have never seen it in action in PokeMMO, so if it gets released, it should probably get tested with or without Heatran. Why would we ever quick ban something new without testing anyways? As for Dubs, I don't consider that format as competitive. If Jirachi is broken there, it's without importance.
Frag Posted September 27 Posted September 27 Unban everything from bl, the only mon you can tell is broken without testing is Toge, Staraptor also looks strong, but you usually kill those of its kind with rocks, recoil and some fast revenge killer, which the current uu doesnt need right now coz walls can handle almost everything and thats the main problem and diference with ou. Staraptor should be tested at least, about Haxorus it would be a great adition. bobliu and DoubleJ 2
VadimEmpoleon Posted September 27 Posted September 27 Just drop everything with no exceptions so everyone can see the non sense they are asking for, also tell devs to release Kyogre in OU so we can test because we shouldn't assume it would be broken. Doctor and terrencelo 2
gbwead Posted September 27 Posted September 27 17 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: also tell devs to release Kyogre in OU so we can test because we shouldn't assume it would be broken. You can't make bans in OU so you can't make tests there.
VadimEmpoleon Posted September 27 Posted September 27 6 minutes ago, gbwead said: You can't make bans in OU so you can't make tests there. New stuff gets released over time so that stuff is "tested" anyways, just like Zapdos or Sharpness Gallade.
DoubleJ Posted September 27 Posted September 27 The Tier Council (TC) apologizes for any confusion amid all of the threads, discussion, and now usage movement announcement. We wanted to post an update here for clarification on what is and will be happening in the UU tier. First, the TC has voted and have unanimously agreed to release all current borderline Pokemon that are below the OU usage cut-off into UU. This includes Staraptor, Haxorus, Porygon2, and Lucario. Per protocol, these all meet the definition of a "suspect test" and will have threads opened. It may take a while for our team to draft and release these, but they will be coming. We will also take close consideration of whether any of these are deserving of a Quick Ban after even just a few days of usage. We are unsure when this change will be added in-game although we anticipate soon. Releasing usage movements is standard practice and as always, the Tier Council evaluates movements for anything that might warrant a Quick Ban. This process will continue to take place and we will be voting on Togekiss and Kabutops before any in-game changes take place as our next step of action. Given the context above, there is a higher likelihood that both will be released and they will be considered for the "Standard Ban" process. Regarding currently open threads for Salamence, Blissey, and Entei, these are all simply discussion threads for a possible "Standard Ban." They do not fall under the suspect test policy and thus will remain open. We will vote when all members of the TC feel ready to make a decision. We are also discussing the new "Stability Policy" as shared in the Updates discussion thread. Bronzong would be under close consideration to block from moving up to OU should this policy be approved and enacted upon. As Munya has shared, it is incredibly difficult for devs and staff to reliably incorporate community input in a manner that is not vulnerable to manipulation. While we the TC do recommend some form of community input support, it is out of our hands. gbwead, Imperial, terrencelo and 10 others 4 3 1 5
Doctor Posted September 27 Posted September 27 (edited) 42 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: New stuff gets released over time so that stuff is "tested" anyways, just like Zapdos or Sharpness Gallade. Not that testing and discussing it have had any effect on devs' decisions. Gallade has become incredibly centralizing to teambuilding and to the metagame in general, as everyone knew would happen, and every complaint has been ignored. To not derail the thread, though, and keeping in mind that, like I said, I don't play the format so I'm probably about to drop a stupidity nugget here: with so many problematic mons that are too much for UU but don't make the cut for OU, wouldn't it be a good solution to finally let the BL1 tier emerge as a tier on its own? Keeping a lot of "dead bodies" in OU because they can't drop down feels weird, and of course letting everything drop so "nothing is broken" is nonsensical, so would it be that bad of an idea to let it all crystallize into its own tier? My guess is that it would be foggy when it comes to ranked matches or tournaments, and I get how it's kind of pointless to add what would amount to a "semi-tier", but let's be honest, OU isn't gonna be fixed any time soon because devs are gatekeeping certain "solutions" for "content"'s sake, and the more centralized it becomes, the more stuff that would have never dropped like Kabutops won't make the usage % at the end of the month and will end up having their own thread in this subforum to discuss it. That's what's been happening this year, at the very least. The more people gravitate to the same ten broken/centralizing mons, the more stuff has been dropping to lower tiers mercilessly causing an absolute mess there. EDIT: nevermind I see we're going in the exact opposite direction lmfao Edited September 27 by Doctor
Scootter Posted September 27 Posted September 27 2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said: First, the TC has voted and have unanimously agreed to release all current borderline Pokemon that are below the OU usage cut-off into UU. This includes Staraptor, Haxorus, Porygon2, and Lucario. Is darmanitan still included in this list as well? (seeing from this)
DoubleJ Posted September 27 Posted September 27 3 minutes ago, Scootter said: Is darmanitan still included in this list as well? (seeing from this) Darmanitan is OU by usage and will not be considered. Scootter 1
Scootter Posted September 27 Posted September 27 4 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said: Kabutops would be a good rain abuser but it has its counters like Poliwrath, Quagsire or Shaymin, I believe it has to be tested at least. Kabu KOs bold Shaymin with +2 LO Leech Life, Quag gets 2 shot by LO waterfall in the rain, and if u run water absorb quag u lose to SD superpower....just food for thought for everyone
VadimEmpoleon Posted September 27 Posted September 27 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Scootter said: Kabu KOs bold Shaymin with +2 LO Leech Life, Quag gets 2 shot by LO waterfall in the rain, and if u run water absorb quag u lose to SD superpower....just food for thought for everyone +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 174-205 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 143-169 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Edit 1: had wrong calc, it doesn't OHKO it though Edit 2: added Quagsire calc too Edited September 27 by VadimEmpoleon
DoubleJ Posted September 27 Posted September 27 4 minutes ago, Scootter said: Kabu KOs bold Shaymin with +2 LO Leech Life, Quag gets 2 shot by LO waterfall in the rain, and if u run water absorb quag u lose to SD superpower....just food for thought for everyone Just now, VadimEmpoleon said: +2 252+ Atk Kabutops Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 134-158 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 also indicates Swords Dance which makes Kabutops suffer greatly from 4MSS to incorporate the moveset you are referring to. This would mean Kabutops would run the following: Swords Dance Waterfall Leech Life Superpower Foregoing, both STAB Stone Edge (or other Rock-type move) and STAB Priority Aqua Jet, which are staples for this mon. Realistically, we would likely continue to see the typical moveset as follows which hits basically everything. Swords Dance / Aqua Jet Waterfall Stone Edge Superpower / Aqua Jet Swords Dance, if pulled off on any powerful physical attacker will always be a significant threat across any tier. VadimEmpoleon, Scootter and gbwead 3
VadimEmpoleon Posted September 27 Posted September 27 1 minute ago, DoubleJ said: +2 also indicates Swords Dance which makes Kabutops suffer greatly from 4MSS to incorporate the moveset you are referring to. This would mean Kabutops would run the following: Swords Dance Waterfall Leech Life Superpower Foregoing, both STAB Stone Edge (or other Rock-type move) and STAB Priority Aqua Jet, which are staples for this mon. Realistically, we would likely continue to see the typical moveset as follows which hits basically everything. Swords Dance / Aqua Jet Waterfall Stone Edge Superpower / Aqua Jet Swords Dance, if pulled off on any powerful physical attacker will always be a significant threat across any tier. Keep in mind I used a wrong Kabutops calc for Shaymin which didn't have a Life Orb (commonly used item) on Kabutops but it resists it even with Life Orb, just changed it.
Scootter Posted September 27 Posted September 27 5 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shaymin: 174-205 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 143-169 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Edit 1: had wrong calc, it doesn't OHKO it though Edit 2: added Quagsire calc too yea im saying if ur water absorb superpower beats it over 2 turns, my bad shouldve said +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Shaymin: 177-208 (85.5 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock - also was looking at 236 bcuz 20 speed is usually a good benchmark on bold shaymin DoubleJ 1
Recommended Posts