January 2025 Movement Discussion

[Munya]

This topic is happening kind of early since the next few days will be very busy.  New season, 3.75 down 4.75 up.

Lot of things are being discussed, and you are all free to discuss it here.  6% if the cutoff for being able to vote to hold something in a tier.

 

To OU:
Tentacruel  4.97%

 

Banned to BL1:
Raikou - Offensive Uber

 

To UU from NU:
Swampert 4.79%
Rotom(base form) 5.11%
Mismagius 6.17%
Mantine 6.93%

 

To NU from UU:
Arcanine 3.71%
Dusclops 2.19%

 

Additionally a BL2 Reset is being discussed and voted on, the following things are currently eligible to drop via usage if that were to happen.

Durant, Nidoqueen, Roserade, Vaporeon, Venomoth, Yanmega

Of which, I know there has been significant concern shown about Yanmega, if you want to contribute to that discussion.

[LiveLaughHate]

I would say that Durant, Yanmega and Venomoth are the mons from the BL2 reset that concern me the most. Durant and Yanmega just have significantly more raw power than I believe the tier is able to handle, as you can count on one hand the amount of reliable switch ins. Venomoth while not as overtly strong, I believe its disable/sleep powder sets will remove the vast majority of defensive counterplay and make it too strong of a set up sweeper. That being said if we are going to do a BL2 reset we may as well test them all so long as quick action is taken if any pokemon demonstrates itself as overly problematic.

As for any potential usage of the stability policy. I don't think it will be necessary. Swampert and Rotom-base are currently very high usage in NU and Tentacruel is high usage in UU. I however believe the tiers should be able to function without them and it will open the door to potentially new and interesting team building.

[razimove]

Im actually curious about dusclops in NU, something im definitely not curious about is yanmega in NU, what walls it properly? Golbat? 

[Sargeste]

4 minutes ago, razimove said:

Im actually curious about dusclops in NU, something im definitely not curious about is yanmega in NU, what walls it properly? Golbat? 

Gigalith was also a popular check when both were commonly seen in UU

[gbwead]

Yanmega has never been tested. If it ends up being broken, it can get banned after getting tested.

 

We have plenty of answers available anyways:

• Gigalith
• Probopass
• Golbat
• Milotic
• Cryogonal
• Vaporeon
• Assault Vest mons (Audino, Walrein, etc.)

Not to mention Wind Rider Shiftry and Soundproof mons that can punish Choice Spec Yanmegga when locked on the wrong move.

As for Durant, I hate that mon so much, but if Arcanine is about to drop NU, it would be unacceptable to not test out Durant.

If we're going to have a reset, let's have a proper one where we can see everything at once just like in UU.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by gbwead

[Sargeste]

19 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Not to mention Wind Rider Shiftry and Soundproof mons that can punish Choice Spec Yanmegga when locked on the wrong move.

Wind Rider does not provide an immunity to Air Slash.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Sargeste

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, Sargeste said:

Wind Rider does not provide an immunity to Air Slash.

Oh my bad, I though it was both Air Cutter and Air Slash.

[GautSam]

Yeah as mentioned by others already Durant and Yan are actually scary for NU. But I do agree that we should actually test them before coming to any conclusion. 

 

Articuno is also a check to Yan I believe (as long as there are no rocks on the field)

Edited December 23, 2024 by GautSam

[Ziiiiio]

Vaporeon should drop to NU again, we got Toxicroak.

 

one more check for Arcanine as well.

[MaatthewMLG]

3 hours ago, Munya said:

To UU from NU:
Swampert 4.79%

Haha wtt nus for uus

[subzi]

3 hours ago, Munya said:

Additionally a BL2 Reset is being discussed and voted on, the following things are currently eligible to drop via usage if that were to happen.

Durant, Nidoqueen, Roserade, Vaporeon, Venomoth, Yanmega

Of which, I know there has been significant concern shown about Yanmega, if you want to contribute to that discussion.

Drop them all. Let the chaos begin and then make the necessary changes afterwards.

[Ziiiiio]

After some calculation, i think we should keep Durant in NUBL.

 

折叠

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 94-112 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 55-66 (37.4 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 105-124 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 73-87 (44.5 - 53%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 118-140 (64.8 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

 

Durant has good coverage, damage, speed, also it is not weak to prio attack.

 

It has massive base def

折叠

252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 100-118 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 86-101 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 99-117 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 71-86 (52.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

In my opinion, Durant will definitely be banned, Excellent defense and speed will give Durant too many opportunities to attack, at same time it's coverage and power makes it hard to stop.

[YoruKiss]

4 hours ago, Munya said:

Additionally a BL2 Reset is being discussed and voted on, the following things are currently eligible to drop via usage if that were to happen.

Durant, Nidoqueen, Roserade, Vaporeon, Venomoth, Yanmega

Of which, I know there has been significant concern shown about Yanmega, if you want to contribute to that discussion.

Waiting roserade and nidoqueen to drop e_e

[beefpoptart]

Im not sure tenta NEEDS to be in OU.  Granted while he usually has around a 55% win rate and has more usage than many OU mons, I think he is similar to Bronzong because what he does in UU isnt really game breaking as a utility mon but is just generally very useful as a rare specially defensive rapid spinner.

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, Ziiiiio said:

After some calculation, i think we should keep Durant in NUBL.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 94-112 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 55-66 (37.4 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 105-124 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Bronzor: 73-87 (44.5 - 53%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 118-140 (64.8 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

 

Durant has good coverage, damage, speed, also it is not weak to prio attack.

 

It has massive base def

  Hide contents

252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 100-118 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 86-101 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 99-117 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 71-86 (52.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

In my opinion, Durant will definitely be banned, Excellent defense and speed will give Durant too many opportunities to attack, at same time it's coverage and power makes it hard to stop.

I don't think CB Durant would be a problem. It's normal for a Choice Band pokemon to break through walls when doing the right prediction. When locked mons can no longer break through walls, we're usually looking at very stallish metas and that does not need to be the case.

 

And the thing is, even when predicting correctly, Hustle accuracy drop can still be problematic. When taking into account potential crits, misses, flinches, rolls, etc, if CB Durant predicts Arcanine switching in and does Rock Slide, it only has around 28.95% of breaking through the Arcanine. That's actually very bad for a "correct prediction".
 

It's also very difficult for Durant to break through Qwilfish: 

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 45-54 (26.1 - 31.3%) -- 23.9% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Monferno could also be a solid answer:

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 60-71 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Also, Durant has a pitiful Special Defense, so Vacuum Wave Blaziken or Toxicroak will easily do around 50% with a Life orb and quite more with Spec. Magneton Scarf can revenge kill it with Tbolt at all times. 

[drewq]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Monferno could also be a solid answer:

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 60-71 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

[Huargensy]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Monferno could also be a solid answer:

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 60-71 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 160-189 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

[gbwead]

5 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Monferno: 160-189 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

When taking into account miss chances, that's more of a 40% chance to 2hko and that's still a prediction from a CB mon. It can still switch into both stab moves really well tho.

[Frag]

he didn't put rocks tho 

[gbwead]

8 minutes ago, Frag said:

he didn't put rocks tho 

and no crit chance

[DoubleJ]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

and no crit chance

What about the Growl defense drop?

Oh wait, I'm bad. I can't even joke right. Someone send me back to an original play through. 

[Ziiiiio]

Then at least let rotom stay in NU for the time being, and when durant is back to NUBL again, rotom could be adjusted up to UU. I don't know if the policy allows us to do this.

 

At least Rotom can take stab move from durant, also durant need to add crunch to kill it.

[ArtOfKilling]

2 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Then at least let rotom stay in NU for the time being, and when durant is back to NUBL again, rotom could be adjusted up to UU. I don't know if the policy allows us to do this.

 

At least Rotom can take stab move from durant, also durant need to add crunch to kill it.

I'm not sure how NU would look like without Rotom Base, probably the last time it ever managed to look without it was before Sinnoh if i'm not mistaken. A staple to NU as a whole and gives another realms to how Hitmontop could potentially be spammed none stop, Misma and Rotom out = 1 relevant and 1 uncommon Ghost user ; Frosslass and Dusknoir.
If there's a chance of allowing it to stay for the better of the tier then it would make much more sense

 

On 12/23/2024 at 4:10 PM, Munya said:

 

Additionally a BL2 Reset is being discussed and voted on, the following things are currently eligible to drop via usage if that were to happen.

Durant, Nidoqueen, Roserade, Vaporeon, Venomoth, Yanmega

Of which, I know there has been significant concern shown about Yanmega, if you want to contribute to that discussion.

I don't see a reason to drop Vaporeon and Nidoqueen again as since the last time they were dropped nothing from what NU has right now or what shall be given to it counts as a tool that can be used to not allow them getting NUBL'd again. No new grass/electric types to account for against Vaporeon, nor additional Nidoqueen Offensive/Defensive answers.
As for the rest debates could be made and a chance for testing could be open imo

[caioxlive13]

6 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

Then at least let rotom stay in NU for the time being, and when durant is back to NUBL again, rotom could be adjusted up to UU. I don't know if the policy allows us to do this.

 

At least Rotom can take stab move from durant, also durant need to add crunch to kill it.

According to Stability policy, Mismagius and Mantine cannot have the movement reversed. But Swampert and Rotom can. 

[Munya]

As the votes currently stand, Tentacruel will not be held in UU(will be allowed to move to OU), BL2 will mostly get a reset(Yanmega will be held in BL2) which means Durant, Nidoqueen, Roserade, Vaporeon, Venomoth will be allowed to drop to NU.