What is this?

 

This thread has been opened to elicit public opinion on the possibility of "buffing" Knock Off to 65 BP, as in Generation 6 and above.

 

What to know?

 

PokeMMO is a unique metagame and developers have always erred on the side of updating mechanics to newer generations (unless egregiously broken), and thus it was only a matter of time before a Knock Off buff would be considered. This does come at an opportune time, as our metagame continues to have Steel resisting Dark-type attacks, which buffed Knock Off has never seen. This could offset the absence of Fairy-types. In addition, PokeMMO has released several powerful items that have the potential to alter matches under the right circumstances. Knock Off could limit item variability and impact.

 

Other considerations must include the fact that PokeMMO has expanded movesets to SV, which means there are far more Pokemon with access to Knock Off (i.e. Tyranitar). We have also reduced PP for healing moves, meaning that knocking off Leftovers (passive recovery) could be very detrimental to defensive strategies. Steel-types are also hoarded in OU, which means lower tiers may be impacted more significantly (i.e. Lucario, Bronzong, Forretress, and Bisharp are the only Steel-types in UU above 5% usage).

 

Any implementation of this mechanic could be reversed if it is shown to be broken in competitive play.

 

 

Please discuss.

all good

I approve the buff

With the addition of a buffed knock I think you could maybe (emphasis) justify HDB in singles, but currently with no knock absorbers like z-moves or mega pokemon it might become overbearing. I also think you would see a lot of dark spam, even to the point of something like bisharp rising to OU. NU could become a mess though with all the eviolites that teams rely on. 

 

Personally I am down to give it a try, knock is such a progress maker against fatter structures that the player base does not like and I think it could be a cool way to shake things up.

absolutely yes, we need more ways to make progress

Let 'er rip. My immediate concern would be Knock Off making the spammed Bulk up Conkeldurr set more oppressive and maybe that the Scarf Pursuit Ttar 50/50s would be even more brutal, but most teams are already well equipped to handle Ttar unless you're inting in the builder. (I have no comment on lower tiers, I don't play them)
However, if you're saying the change is easily reversible, I really want to see how buffed Knock would look in our game. I'd love a consistent way to make progress.

Edited January 26Jan 26 by Lilyrain

Currently HO is pretty strong but I'm not sure if this play-style really wants to use Knock Off. Stall might have a Knock Off user for sure but Knock Off is also obviously very strong against Stall.

So overall it seems it might be kinda beneficial to balance? Which doesn't sound too bad.

 

Heavy Duty boot is not in the format though (which was a good choice I think) so it's not like Knock Off is absolutely mandatory.

 

If we look at Knock Off users I don't think any of them is outrageously strong except for Gliscor. Gliscor will be both the best Knock Off user & the best Knock absorber which is a bit of a concern.

 

We don't have Fairy to resist it but Steel does resist Dark.

 

So overall buffing knock off seems fine, but if it's too strong I think PokeMMO shouldn't hesitate to nerf it back.

No fairies, no Z-moves & megas, full move distribution means so many mons gets Knock Off.
And you thought it was a good idea ? 
That's what happens when Devs decide to implement all the defensive options available and none of the offensive options.

No, absolutely NO. Unless there's about to be an announcement of Mega Evolutions & Fairy typing I don't understand how a competent tier council doesn't just laugh this away immediately. So, Mega Evos & Fairy confirmed, hype?

 

There are numerous reasons why this change is horrible for lower tiers, but I’m going to zoom in on one particular Pokemon in OU & set, as it’s the primary reason this idea should have been dismissed immediately.



 

 

It’s clear that this Pokemon is already a nightmare to deal with in the current meta if you even play maybe 5 games. We can barely check it and often 2 mons are required to handle it. Do the tier council even play or build teams? How do they not immediately recognise how broken Conkeldurr becomes in this environment? This suggestion feels like something new players; who have never properly teambuilt, or players who simply can't teambuild—would propose. Anyone with experience in team-building knows this is a dreadful idea and would see the problem right away.

 

Weezing would be the only SHAKY check for Conkeldurr, and even then, the Conkeldurr user benefits by knocking off its item—something that’s huge for Weezing, as losing its Rocky Helmet or Black Sludge diminishes its effectiveness significantly. Apart from Weezing, there’s nothing else that checks Conkeldurr reliably. Double Rocky Helmet might seem like a reasonable way to check it at first glance, but once you realise that Conkeldurr can be paired with Knock Off users like Weavile, Mienshao, or Scizor—who all share the same checks your two-mon dedicated answer suddenly becomes useless. On top of this, Conkeldurr naturally pairs super well with Healing Wish Jirachi, allowing it to go on a rampage. The opposing player might just about survive by whittling Conkeldurr down to 10-15%, only for it to come back in, fully healed, and decimate everything in its path. 

 

With Close Combat, Knock Off, Facade, and Mach Punch, Conkeldurr has no reliable counters left. The combination of these moves makes it one of, if not the most dangerous Pokemon in the meta by a good margin. So, please, someone explain to me—what checks or counters, from a team-building perspective even multiple pairings of mons, what can consistently deal with Conkeldurr? Because from my side, absolutely nothing. And do not @ me with niche crap I want strong meta mons or don't bother.


My post doesn't even mention: Tyranitar becomes INFINITELY better, honestly probably broken. Weavile, Mienshao good lord... People can make cases on these alone why it's broken I just didn't bother since Conk is the worst offender. I haven't even touched on the thousands of issues that this will cause for lower tiers.

 

My main question is aimed at the tier council, just what the hell do you people discuss?
 

Edited January 26Jan 26 by Luke

just no

Having a move that complicates the teambuilding and even being able to disable strategies is a terrible idea for me, even if steel has resistance to the move. 

The Pokémons that benefit the most are excellent Pokémon such as Crawdaunt, Tyranitar, Fighting, Scizor, etc.

Yes. We need Knock Off. 

 

LETS GOOOOOO






lets be real we cant buff it before we have fairies

This will buff fighting types in a generation where they are at their peak more than dark types, it'd make Conkeldurr into an absolute monster right after it became somewhat ok to deal with, all out attacker, bulk up, AV, you name it. Mienshao as well would be unbearable to fight against. Sure, originally Knock Off wasn't buffed because at the time we hadn't seen this iteration without Z Crystals or Mega Stones however once it happened we had already experienced several generations of power creep as well as gotten a whole ass new type that resisted both dark and fighting. I heavily advice against this change and stop pushing for Heavy Duty Boots, devs, I know it's you.

7 minutes ago, Luke said:

Unless there's about to be an announcement of Mega Evolutions & Fairy typing I don't understand how a competent tier council doesn't just laugh this away immediately. So, Mega Evos & Fairy confirmed, hype?

Pretty much agree with everything Luke said, I wanted to add a little extra on the point being made in the OP that we still have steel typing resisting dark and why fairy typing was instrumental. Because it's not purely Conkeldurr. It's fighting types in general.

Dark types are not going to be the only abusers of the knock off buff. It will be fighting types as well. You can't even begin to compare that steel resisting dark is the exact same thing as fairy typing. While yes steel does in fact still resist dark in our game, guess what it doesn't resist? Fighting. In fact it's weak to it. Fairy typing resisted both of these typings, making it a lot more of a solid answer to the combination. We just lack the defensiveness of fairy typing as well as the typing changes of species such as Clefable.

Knock Off shouldn't be buffed, Knock Off can already make progress by removing items, a buff would only increase its offensive capability which is something this metagame absolutely doesn't need.

 

The amount of viable mons with Knock Off is insane, some of the most relevant ones being Machamp, Crawdaunt, Scizor, Heracross, Weavile, Conkeldurr, Mienshao, Krookodile, Tyranitar and Bisharp. Some mons like Conkeldurr and Mienshao are already very strong even without buffed Knock Off, by buffing Knock Off these mons would be able to break through some of its counters like Weezing or Reuniclus with no effort. Weavile would also become very strong, the possibility to hit with a 97,5 power Knock Off and remove the item is very broken in Weavile's case.

 

We don't have Z-Moves or Mega Stones to prevent losing items.

 

While the Steel types indeed resist Knock Off, most of the relevant steel types can't deal with the mons that would benefit from Knock Off or they would heavily dislike losing an item.

 

We already have a power creep in our competitive scene and adding more broken stuff will only make it worse.

 

If this change simply made a few pokémon broken I don't think it would be a problem to buff Knock Off because we could simply ban or complex ban the affected mons but a buff would be very unhealthy to our metagame in many aspects.

 

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Any implementation of this mechanic could be reversed if it is shown to be broken in competitive play.

This is interesting, I personally think that most features deserve a chance to be tested, I am pretty sure Knock Off would have a very negative impact in our metagame but I am not against testing it for some time as long as it is a reasonable time like 1 month, testing such a broken feature for a whole season is just a no.

Yeah Fighting Types being buffed by Knock Off is definitely a strong point in favour of introducing Fairies first.

 

this kind of calc is definitely scary for one of the best defensive mon in the current metagame.

 

 

Conkeldurr already has Payback to surprise Jellicent, but Knock Off does seem way better, it's good into any switch (except Justified Lucario maybe lol)

 

But if Knock Off is too strong we can nerf it back, OP made it clear it would be reversed. I think it might be reasonable enough to be tested but definitely 0 hesitation to nerf it back if it's obnoxious.

 

 

Yeah personally, I don't think the risks are worth it. These kinds of decisions are incredibly difficult to backtrack. Even hypothetically if we were "just to test it", it would be tiering wise so difficult to determine when was the experimentation such a disaster that Knock Off would have to reverted back to its old self. It's just better not to go there because the moment Knock Off was buffed, it sends such massive shockwaves to all MMO tiers and returning to anything at that point becomes practically impossible.

 

We agreed before that old 20 Power Knock Off is justifiable with no Megas and no Fairies. I don't think we should change now.

 

Also yeah jesus christ Conk would become busted

What is this myth of "Let's just test it for a short period" When have the devs ever been known to do this?

Garchomp SD? Took about a year.
Dugtrio? Took about a year since the addition of new moves which made it broken.
Gallade? Took about a year + 3 nerfs.
Draco Hydrei? Took about a year.

The list goes on and on and on. This myth of "Short testing period" is not a thing. We either get it, or we don't. And we absolutely should not.

Not even mentioning meta changing things would occur just as a little fun experiment purely for people who want a change that literally nearly every relevant builder / player / figure is vehemently against. Bisharp to OU probably, Machamp probably needs to be quick banned from UU, loads of problems in NU etc. Just for an "experiment" that we all know the answer to.

Edited January 26Jan 26 by Luke

Yeah if it takes a year to revert I would also side with don't buff it. Or give us fairies! I think Fairies being mostly defensive with the existing Mons could definitely be interesting for PokeMMO, all normal type that received Fairy are completely underused currently and wouldn't become busted.

 

 

Edited January 26Jan 26 by Guest

If proposing to implement the Knock Off operation as in gen6 (x1.5 BP if the target has an item), I want whoever agrees to tell me how Crawdaunt would not inevitably fall into Ubers.

 

If not and only ask for 65BP regardless of whether the target has an item equipped or not, simply Conk, AV Ttar and AV Shao would be the most annoying things (not personally, objectively annoying), implementing this without gen6 resources would simply It's a joke, and note that I only focused on OU for this, in low tiers it could be the same or worse.

 

 

Finally, I have seen many "okay, we must progress" but absolutely no arguments in favor... I invite you to take this with the seriousness it deserves, so as not to have an unnecessary Gallade 2.0 where they implement something and then ban it

Im in favor of this when HDB gets added to pvp

 

HDB w/o knock off buff is too overpowered, while knock off buff w/o HDB feels unnecessary since the only items you care to remove often is defensive items like leftovers. So it doesnt matter how much damage ur knock off is gonna do.

 

They should be both added at the same time

19 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

i really agree with your points
this guy who represents the tiercouncil doesn't seem to know the game
maybe it's a joke
or a guy who got lost in the tier council....

Hey dummy, please reread line one after "What to know"

I'm surprised that this is a topic of discussion, when it is obviously the worst idea they can make, they are TC, they have full knowledge of the game, they should know how problematic this would be.

Buffing knock off means Dugtrio can get AT back? If no dark types will be too good, no? 

Edited January 26Jan 26 by GautSam

1 minute ago, Huargensy said:

I'm surprised that this is a topic of discussion, when it is obviously the worst idea they can make, they are TC, they have full knowledge of the game, they should know how problematic this would be.

Would you have rather the developers just implemented it without discussion then? Sounds like a great idea.