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February 2025 Movement Discussion


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Posted (edited)

Why would vaporeon get rebanned in the Roserade + Toxicroak tier. Cmon now, don't be riddiculous.

 

As for Tangrowth, please keep it in OU one more month. It's usage will spike up sooner rather than later. Its presence in lower tiers will disrupt everything and will lead to unpleasant snowball effects that will last for months. We all know it will end up OU in the long run.

Edited by gbwead
Posted (edited)

Tangrowth will definately dominate uu next month lol.

Agree with gbwead opnion, this mons finally will end up in ou. The usage rate last month means nothing

Edited by bobliu
Posted

Vaporeon gets banned and Venomoth stays. The TC create a Knock Off thread for an obvious result but don’t say a word about these BL2 bans. Every TC member should be giving their opinion in the discussion threads and stating their vote but instead bans are happening without a single TC at least giving a reasoning for it…

Posted (edited)

I'm surprised Tang had so less usage in Ou. It doesn't belong in UU at all. Durant and Roserade should also get rebanned. 

Edited by GautSam
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, GautSam said:

I'm surprised Tang had so less usage in Ou. It doesn't belong in UU at all. Durant and Roserade should also get rebanned. 

The only who should be rebanned is nidoqueen, others are all good for now.

And as gb said , banning vaporeon is stupid since roserde and toxicroak are in the tier

Edited by Tawla
Posted
3 hours ago, GautSam said:

I'm surprised Tang had so less usage in Ou. It doesn't belong in UU at all. Durant and Roserade should also get rebanned. 

This is mainly because the HA was released through a recent raid. There is not many in circulation compared to the millions of other OU mons you see on the GTL.

Posted (edited)

For Tang I think it's also related to the fact that he mostly fits in balanced, I'm not sure if Stall really wants this mon over other alternatives. And Balanced is underplayed. Also it still loses to a bunch of setup sweepers, like Bulk Up Conkeldurr & people might prefer alternatives over it.

It definitely has potential but it's harder to include in a team & play overall. For sure limited availability plays a role as well, Spore Amoonguss is also more appealing for beginners I would bet.

 

This is the flaw in this automated system that I already mentioned multiple times. If limited availability impacts usage rate then usage rate is not fit as the sole decider. Usage rate makes sense in a game like Smogon/Showdown were all sets are available in a click, but in PokeMMO you need to build the mon, IVs, EVs, moveset, etc.

 

So I think as always the problem lies in this usage based automation, it's not the end of the world, UU is quite unpopular already but I think in these cases the TC should step up more & leave mon in their tier when the usage rate can be explained by something else than competitiveness

 

Edited by Merckis
Posted

Tangrowth has a bad match up against most of the OU mons, it makes sense for it to have low usage, it's low usage is not due to teambuilding issues but due to viability issues. It should drop to UU.

Posted

I think vaporeon ban has the purpose of break some strong stall cores. I agree that vaporeon have some counters by itself, but also can be relatively easy to cover. In other way, nidoqueen ban has to be enough to break this annoying cores. It feels like an innocent victim of nidoqueen power.

I also agree that tangrowth has the potential to stay in OU, but it has plenty bad matchups.

If you drop tangrowth to UU, drop tangela to NU.

Posted
4 hours ago, Tawla said:

The only who should be rebanned is nidoqueen, others are all good for now.

And as gb said , banning vaporeon is stupid since roserde and toxicroak are in the tier

idk roserade it shots and 2shots all the tier specs/scarf aside of bronzor and defensive skunk,

no one talks about hitmontop lol

Posted
1 hour ago, DarylDixon said:

idk roserade it shots and 2shots all the tier specs/scarf aside of bronzor and defensive skunk,

no one talks about hitmontop lol

Golbat could do good vs both roserade and top , (need extrasensory which means u should remove a move )

Also roserade is easy to rk tbh

Posted (edited)

Specs Roserade runs Gigadrain / Energy Ball / Leafstorm, Sludge Bomb, Extrasensory and HP Fire allowing it to have coverage for almost everything, it doesn't need another move. It also can 2HKO Bronzor with the Technician set: 252 SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 80-96 (48.7 - 58.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO. It can OHKO or 2HKO almost every relevant mon, some exceptions like Skuntank exist but this is not something necessarily bad, it needs to predict the right move and there are some mons that can take at least one hit without losing an insane amount on HP like it's the case of Bronzor, there are also answers like Audino that can switch in no matter the move Roserade uses. There are also many faster mons than Roserade that can OHKO it and it can be trapped by Skuntank or Drapion. The Scarf variant doesn't seem problematic because many of the mons that can OHKO it won't die from a single hit from Roserade, this is the case of Houndoom, Scarf Honchkrow, Drapion, Scarf Gallade, Typhlosion, Scarf Braviary. This is the conclusion I come just by seeing the NU tier list, I could be wrong tho because I didn't play it.

 

Hitmontop has many defensive answers to it like Golbat, Altaria, Mantine, Qwilfish, Moltres, Dusclops, Druddigon, Slowbro and some more from untiered. There are mons that can set hazards in front of it like Druddigon, Qwilfish or Froslass. There are also many offensive mons that can deal with Hitmontop like Moltres, Alakazam, Qwilfish, Ninjask, Roserade, Honchkrow, Gallade, Rotom Fan and more.

Edited by VadimEmpoleon
Posted

Is there a reason we don't factor tournament usage into movements as an alternate condition for a shift?

 

If I remember correctly, Tangrowth was used about twice as much in tournaments as it was on ladder. It was something like 5.5-6% the last I looked. I think that would tell anyone it's a legitimate OU mon.

Posted
3 minutes ago, Sargeste said:

Is there a reason we don't factor tournament usage into movements as an alternate condition for a shift?

 

If I remember correctly, Tangrowth was used about twice as much in tournaments as it was on ladder. It was something like 5.5-6% the last I looked. I think that would tell anyone it's a legitimate OU mon.

This is like the chaotic evil version of using elo-weighted usage statistics. 

Posted
16 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Vaporeon gets banned and Venomoth stays. The TC create a Knock Off thread for an obvious result but don’t say a word about these BL2 bans. Every TC member should be giving their opinion in the discussion threads and stating their vote but instead bans are happening without a single TC at least giving a reasoning for it…

Exactly. Yeah we can go to the old NU thread and complain about x or y Mon but we haven't gotten much input from TC and their opinions about what's going on. Nidoqueen deserved that ban imo but what was the criteria for it? Does any of the other drops fits it? Same goes with Vaporeon, we lack transparency and/or communication on this end and that's an issue It would be nice to know if some of this does applies to Venomonth, Roserade or Durant as well and what are the TC thoughts at the moment about them.

 

Also while this BL2 tests happens we're having other issues that are just aggravated by the current tier shifts: Arcanine is becoming a elephant in our small room but yet it won't be a priority with the current tier status 

Posted

@Munya Why is Vaporeon getting banned?

From January 1st until the opening of this thread, these are the only times Vaporeon was mentionned in the competitive alley:

 

On 1/11/2025 at 9:21 AM, DarylDixon said:

well now they uses vaporeon over milotic, that make it more annoying, since vaporeon has access to wish and way better than milo imo. also i see some new variants with impish rk9 and alomomola too..

this nu meta its only just stall with the same 6-7 pokemons and in ladder u can't contest em so easily and people are forced to play stuff to hard counter em. i do not wanna play stuff like that, if i wanna test and practice more stuff, this tier it's just became so ugly and boring, no wonder why  games are so rare af to find .

On 1/11/2025 at 9:44 AM, Merckis said:

Yeah I also faced multiple Vaporeon stall & that's why I linked the thread above. In the past Vaporeon was not ok due to its walling capabilities & now we have even more walls & Vaporeon? What the hell. Wouldn't say Vaporeon is better than Milotic though. Marvel Scale Flame orb has way more defense and is immune to poison, with recover instead of protect (& wish) it's like an extra move slot.

 

But yeah overall the format doesn't real seem to be in is normal state, maybe due to low activity. And for sure such powerful stall options aren't gonna help. Milotic used to be UU it should have stayed there, same for many others. Also Magneton in NU?

 

I guess all these changes are just usage based? As said above I think we definitely need the popularity/activity stats of the format before taking decisions.

I know you can kinda see the number of games in-game but we would need a more direct option to see format activity.


This really looks like random changes just due to low activity & usage based tiering, these don't mix well

On 1/11/2025 at 4:24 PM, CaptnBaklava said:

That's wrong because the last time Vaporeon was legal we did not have stuff like roserade and Durant in the tier that can easily break it. Not sure if Nidoqueen was around but same with that. 

On 1/18/2025 at 8:13 AM, JurassicMick said:

I have mixed feelings about Vaporeon. I feel like it could be setup fodder for a plethora of threats but it's still a top tier support that can pretty much stall out a big portion of the meta (I think we have a good example of this on the last tour we had recently)

On 1/18/2025 at 8:31 AM, Merckis said:

I mean you just ignored the previous posts. My main argument was to get some popularity stats for the format, to me it seems clear it's less played that before & that makes sense considering the threats available. Games are less fun when stall is so prevalent.

Also very clearly there is a nasty side effect of these automated tier change, some mons just don't belong in NU even if their usage is low in UU. As simple as that. Same goes for UU, & it has a trickling down effect, you allow insane threats in UU due to low OU usage, some strong mons like Milotic are no longer used in UU and there you go, Milotic in NU, completely walling anything physical & immune to status. With amazing special walls to cover it. What are you gonna do, find a special wall breaker with grass or electric? Find a physical breaker with grass or electric? (lol). It has haze you can't even abuse it like you can Vaporeon. You can't even efficiently trick it because flame orb.

 

To me it's really a raw stats problem, and what makes stall so strong, stall was already viable with Audino, Bronzor, Lanturn, Qwilfish, etc.

 

But now with Dusclops, Milotic, Clefable, intimidate Arcanine, stuff like eviolite Magnemite even. It restricts the format too much, part of the fun of NU is being able to play mons you don't usually see on the competitive scene. Dusclops and Clefable are seen in OU and they are absolutely decent there, their power level is simply too high for the format & it feels wrong just not going for stall.


The screenshots I posted above is like my first few games after a 6 months break. I come back to NU, I look at what's in the tier. And immediately I'm like "Ok stall is too strong".


I bring a team with wall breakers & immediately face a high ranked guy running stall, being able to predict the top team like this is just plain unhealthy. I could tell the team I faced just by looking at the tier before queuing.

 

I haven't seen a single Blaziken. And personally I didn't enjoy Blaziken in the format (mixed coverage is hard to handle), it was manageable though, nothing too unhealthy.

But now Blaziken has dropped so much. I'm betting most people running it are people with a comp Blaziken & they still want to use it. It's the biggest symptom of the meta shift.

 

I think the new mons are too oppressive, you are 100% correct that it might be too early to judge, and with the new season I find matches more easily it seems, compared to just after the Xmas event when I made my post.

 

Also didn't enjoy Rotom in the format, but Rotom leaving, one of the best Trick user, and facing Milotic Marvel Scale + whatever special wall (sp Def Unaware Clef, Audino AV, you name it), how do you break through that. Seems a bit too strong/too restrictive for team building.

Seriously, if these posts convinced TC Vaporeon needed to get banned, we have a serious problem. Since when are we banning mons just people hate stall... like wtf. If there is another reason why Vaporeon is getting banned, why have TC not explained themselves yet? We have no information, no context, nothing about this ban that came out of nowhere.

 

 

 

 

 

Posted (edited)

@gbwead Dude my post was 100% not in favor of Vaporeon ban, it was the complete opposite.


I complained about Vaporeon being banned back when it was INITIALLY banned, I thought it was fine in the tier, so there I was wondering why it was back in the tier without any discussion, and now it's gone again, lol!

For me if Milotic is in the tier, then Vaporeon should 100% be in the tier as well, Milotic is much better overall besides wish, Milotic has way better defense with Marvel Scale & can't be statused with Flame Orb.

 

Vaporeon is more exploitable imo, so if Vaporeon goes then Milotic must go with it otherwise it's not coherent.

 

With Rotom gone from the tier as well... These changes seem too fast paced.

 

I'm 100% on the side of ELO weighted stats, it's also what I was asking for in the NU thread.

 

Given PokeMMO economy and NU low activity the meta develops much slower, the previous Blaziken/Rotom meta wasn't even fully explored. I'm the only guy that I've seen so far running Vulpix sun in NU (as well as Rain with manual Rain Dance) & not so long ago Venusaur & Gligar dropped to NU lol (and were quickly banned which wasn't great once again). So many changes so fast.

 

I agree with all of you more transparency would be appreciated but I would also like aggressive replies gone from these threads

 

Honestly it might sound crazy but I feel like NU activity is low enough that yearly Tier moves could make sense for this tier, if yearly is too slow then maybe twice a year, but this pace seems a bit too high, no? People invest in a mon & the meta shifts & takes it away from them.

 

 

Edited by Merckis
Posted

Same here. Don't get me wrong I still have mixed feelings about it since as you already pointed we do have tools to check it but at the same time we saw how it stalled a great portion of the meta. We could adapt and run Scrafty taunt to avoid Haze Vaporeon as well but Toxicroak even if was able to setup against Vaporeon could still get pp stalled easily by Haze + Protect + Wish plus changes based on its set (SD or NPlot). My argument was more on the we need to see more of it since it just wasn't a priority and actually without Nidoqueen I think it deserves to be tested for a while at least since in stall Vaporeon could bypass some of its check relying exclusively in Nidoqueen.

 

I would also like to know the reason behind this ban. Also the criteria for Nidoqueen since depending on the reason we might have to look if some of the others drops fit in this definition (Specs Roserade)

Posted

I wasn't saying you guys were in favor of the ban. Just that you guys are the only ones that posted about vaporeon, so I was confused how TC came to the conclusion that banning Vaporeon was a good idea.

Posted

My opinion on these movements is this:

 

Nidoqueen: Absolute NU Uber, I don't think I need to go into too much detail but a tl;dr would be that it does too much damage with its offensive sets and it is way too versatile.

 

Vaporeon: Wasn't my personal #2 to reban but it has pretty arguably uber support capabilities as well as being incredibly strong defensively itself; capable of walling a large portion of the meta game. It's ability to eat hits, recover back to full and then pass massive wishes is why I believe it was rebanned. Even ignoring all that it has the most punishing scald from a defensive pokemon in the tier with its high sp atk. It was determined to be a good part of why nidoqueen was problematic and why other offensive pokemon like choice band arcanine are problematic as they so easilly get topped back up.

 

Tangrowth: Yeah it could be held in OU, personally I'm not too fussed either way. I think its hard to see how it would be broken in UU though so it would not be held back for balance reasons. Speculating on its usage rising up to OU standards within the next month doesn't seem particularly good though. For one tangrowth was more easilly obtained than both heatran and jirachi in both a supply case and the cost of obtaining one and yet those two have seen significant usage while tangrowth hasn't. I do think it is excellent in the tier and an OU quality pokemon but how long are we expected to hold it in the tier? Its lunar new year next month so we will once again likely have a lower number of ladder games. Sure it might change things in the tiers below but I can't see how it is any more damaging to tier balance or flow on effects than the BL unbans were which many people touted as worthwhile. Again before jumping down my throat on this, I'm not advocating one way or the other with this but I think the simplest thing to do is to just let its usage journey take its course, it'll settle where it belongs.

Roserade/Durant/Venomoth: Personally all 3 of these could be on my chopping block for needing reban. Roserade in particular was my #2 for rebanning but the general consensus was that quick banning all the BL2 unbans defeats the purpose of testing in the first place so its a ban a couple of them and see how the tier plays out. I personally have my eye on arcanine now with both vaporeon rebanned and slowbro moving up and if it becomes a clear problem I will advocate for a discussion thread to be opened. If people want to have their voice heard I implor them to post more in the discussion forums, I was trying to encourage discourse there and I'm grateful for the few people who did share their opinions, but if you are unhappy about decisions being made people should share their opinion ahead of time because these decisions aren't made on a whim. I personally read every post made and have been talking in various discords and also individuals in private and I as well as the rest of TC do keep peoples opinions in mind.

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