March 2025 Movement Discussion

[Munya]

Usage of 2.5 to go down, 6 to go up this month.

 

Nothing to or from OU

 

To UU from NU:

Gigalith - 6.44% usage.

 

To NU from UU:

Tangela - 1.37% usage

 

Will also be starting a vote on if we should move Roserade back to BL2 or not, if you would like to give your feedback on that please do so.

[gbwead]

Don't ban anything. Vaporeon should be unbanned too.

[Munya]

Make an argument for it, i think there are a few people at least that need convincing.

[gbwead]

Vaporeon had plenty of checks and answers when it was getting tested. Roserade, Toxicroak, Jynx, Lanturn, Scrafty and so many others could be used to punish Vaporeon. Tangela is also dropping to NU, so we can also consider all the mons that will get knocked off for free everytime Vaporeon tries to wish anything. Speaking of Wish, I think it's important to mention that one of Vaporeon's biggest strenght can be used against it thanks to Roar. Mons like Altaria or Lapras can easily switch into most Vaporeon and roar to prevent it from recovering. Altaria/Lapras might be gimmicky for some, but keep in mind that even Vaporeon itself can use Roar Vs other Vaporeon, so there is plenty of counter play available.
 

A big argument that was used to get Vaporeon banned was that it was helping Nidoqueen wreck havoc in the tier, but now that Nidoqueen is gone so is that argument. I believe TC is only going to damage the tier further if they go down this path of chain banning every threat. Banning should be an exceptional measure and right now it seems we're just looking for any excuse to remove any mons. Banning Nidoqueen seems reasonable, but Vaporeon is clearly an abusive ban imo.

 

 

 

 

[JurassicMick]

Ban Roserade. I agree banning a Pokémon should be the last thing to consider but they were already banned and we're in a testing phase so why go through all this just to justify keeping it?

 

Roserade can put pressure into any team with almost no effort. Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Extransensory, Hidden Power already provides a good coverage to most of its checks and it can run support moves such as spikes, tspikes, sleep powder, leech seed allowing it to be even more threatening or gaining momentum. That's just s regular Black Sludge LO set, since Specs is also a thing and we only have a few Pokemon that come into it without losing more than 40% with just one hit.

 

Natural Cure/Technician are also great abilities and since its typing allows it to be a great status absorber you can pretty much run whatever you like the most. It has a good speed and a pretty good special defense so revenge killing it is also conditioned. I think it's noteworthy how it can run some bulk investment without losing too much offensive presence so it can sponge neutral hits with no issues and still get its job done.

 

Not gonna talk about how specially defensive sets are also able to shine since I think those are the most controllable ones even if they're annoying 

[javitodesm88]

Ask to enchanteur if vaporeon is broken or not.

Literally he wons 3 nu shinys in a row spaming wish vaporeon. And when it left, he couldn't reach any further stage. (Don't be mad enchan, but is the truth) 

 

About roserade? I don't use it, but i am a little  agree that she left the tier. 

125 spatk, good abilities, 90 speed Wich is decent, decent sp def and is so anoying being sweeper, setter or wall

Anyway if she stays, is the same for me.

 

[Guest]

Vaporeon banned in NU is a joke when the powerlevel of the tier is so high. It wouldn't even be played, it's an obsolete ban

 

Roserade is not the problem in NU right now at all. You can consider banning but there are much higher priorities like Shell Smashers.

[LiveLaughHate]

Personally I find roserade to apply too much offensive pressure and there are far too few answers to it. It's coverage of giga drain/sludge bomb/extra sensory/hidden power (fire/ground) allows it to ohko/2hko basically the entire tier, added to that it having valuable utility moves in double hazards and sleep powder make it far too good in the tier.

 

I also disagree with a sentiment shared by a couple posts on this thread. Banning is necessary to retain/regain tier balance. If a pokemon is too good or unhealthy in the tier banning it is the best option available (unless you want to do a weird complex ban on anything ban worthy). By removing clear outliers in a tier that are too strong it vastly improves the viability of the pokemon bellow it making the tier more enjoyable and feel more freeing. Sometimes this will require multiple bans to obtain the goal of a healthy metagame and if that is required so be it, the end justifies the means.

Edited February 25 by LiveLaughHate
Bug when posting

[gbwead]

8 hours ago, javitodesm88 said:

Ask to enchanteur if vaporeon is broken or not.

Literally he wons 3 nu shinys in a row spaming wish vaporeon. And when it left, he couldn't reach any further stage. (Don't be mad enchan, but is the truth) 

If everytime Enchanteur won a shiny with a pokemon and then we proceeded to ban that pokemon, we would be left with absolutely nothing to play with.

[DarylDixon]

hahahha seriously  you guys keept roserade and arcanine??? asking even votations for it?

Edited February 25 by DarylDixon

[DarylDixon]

5 hours ago, Merckis said:

Vaporeon banned in NU is a joke when the powerlevel of the tier is so high. It wouldn't even be played, it's an obsolete ban

 

Roserade is not the problem in NU right now at all. You can consider banning but there are much higher priorities like Shell Smashers.

what kind of shell smasher, excuse me?

 

blastoise get walled from many mons

only issues is just torterra under screens with  loaded dice, and imo   it's not even torterra the big issue, but this new item, that even made pretty strong a untiered mon like cinccino.+

 

as mickz said you have enough reasons why roserade should be banned.

defo not the shell smashers.

[Guest]

You guys are once again ignoring the low popularity of the format imo. Yeah you can answer Blastoise. But it's not like you can build a team & ignore its existence, it's shaping the metagame, & imo not for the best. Also offensive pressure is increased if you face 2 Shell Smashers.

 

But I guess I'll just focus on OU if that's what the TC is going to do about NU, it's such a pain to find a match in the first place, if it's to have poor gameplay on top of it, no thanks

At least OU is in a great place right now, fun format.

 

This is what we should ban lol

 

 

Edited February 25 by Guest

[camilo7]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

If everytime Enchanteur won a shiny with a pokemon and then we proceeded to ban that pokemon, we would be left with absolutely nothing to play with.

yes plz unban vaporeon is not broken

 

[gbwead]

I want to bring attention to the following post from the last time Vaporeon was banned:

 

We can see that last time Vaporeon was banned was because Offense specifically had very little options to break it.
Is that still true today? Ofc not.

Take Cincinno that was previously listed as a failed answer. Now it has Technician + Loaded Dice. The dmg it deals is significantly more intesting without the fear of being locked into a Protect mon.

Toxicroak was not available in NU in 2023.
Roserade was not available in NU in 2023.
Torterra was untiered in 2023.
Tangela did not have Regenerator in 2023.
Gallade was not available in NU in 2023.

If Vaporeon was banned because Offense could not pressure it, now that Offense can pressure it, it should not be banned. 

 

[SoftCreamyFluff]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

I want to bring attention to the following post from the last time Vaporeon was banned:

 

We can see that last time Vaporeon was banned was because Offense specifically had very little options to break it.
Is that still true today? Ofc not.

Take Cincinno that was previously listed as a failed answer. Now it has Technician + Loaded Dice. The dmg it deals is significantly more intesting without the fear of being locked into a Protect mon.

Toxicroak was not available in NU in 2023.
Roserade was not available in NU in 2023.
Torterra was untiered in 2023.
Tangela did not have Regenerator in 2023.
Gallade was not available in NU in 2023.

If Vaporeon was banned because Offense could not pressure it, now that Offense can pressure it, it should not be banned. 

 

Have fun switching cincinno or torterra into a scald that burns them lol. how many cms does it need to OHKO Toxicroak with stored power? one? 

 

not enough good grass and electric typen in the tier to cover it properly.

 

[DarylDixon]

4 hours ago, Merckis said:

You guys are once again ignoring the low popularity of the format imo. Yeah you can answer Blastoise. But it's not like you can build a team & ignore its existence, it's shaping the metagame, & imo not for the best. Also offensive pressure is increased if you face 2 Shell Smashers.

 

But I guess I'll just focus on OU if that's what the TC is going to do about NU, it's such a pain to find a match in the first place, if it's to have poor gameplay on top of it, no thanks

At least OU is in a great place right now, fun format.

 

This is what we should ban lol

 

 

it's only your problem t lose against  shell smashers, good luck to find a way against a mon such like roserade that it 1-2hko everything literally

[DarylDixon]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

I want to bring attention to the following post from the last time Vaporeon was banned:

 

We can see that last time Vaporeon was banned was because Offense specifically had very little options to break it.
Is that still true today? Ofc not.

Take Cincinno that was previously listed as a failed answer. Now it has Technician + Loaded Dice. The dmg it deals is significantly more intesting without the fear of being locked into a Protect mon.

Toxicroak was not available in NU in 2023.
Roserade was not available in NU in 2023.
Torterra was untiered in 2023.
Tangela did not have Regenerator in 2023.
Gallade was not available in NU in 2023.

If Vaporeon was banned because Offense could not pressure it, now that Offense can pressure it, it should not be banned. 

 

vaporeon you cannot expect how it can be played,  it has many few good sets, wish passer one yeah its the best one but, let's think about some stuff:

 

Toxicroak it get 1hkod after 1 calm mind stored power

Roserade hopefully it get banned

Torterra might can be a thing to stops it , hoping not getting burned on a switch in and when you try to shell smash. but torterra it's mostly played under screens.

Tangela lose to ice beams it can't do nothing even with leech seeds

Gallade and more stuff that you gonna add just remind about that thing it can haze.

 

I think it's mostly an Uber support, and not for the offense one also.

We are fine enough with milotic which is enough, vaporeon make it even worse.

(yeah i retought about it, defo it shouldnt be unbanned).

 

[gbwead]

33 minutes ago, SoftCreamyFluff said:

Have fun switching cincinno or torterra into a scald that burns them lol. how many cms does it need to OHKO Toxicroak with stored power? one? 

 

not enough good grass and electric typen in the tier to cover it properly.

 

Vaporeon can't run haze, heal bell, stored power, calm mind, wish, protect, scald, ice beam, hidden power, roar, baton pass and more all in 1 set. I'm not saying Stored Power is bad, not at all actually, but it's not fair to expect 1 mon to runs 20 moves because otherwise Infernape would be Uber.

As for switching into Scald burn, I wasn't saying Cincinno should switch into Scald, I was only referencing the previous post where Cincinno was mentionned as a revenge killing option that was struggling due to being CB Skill Link and therefore getting locked in front of a Protect mon; that's no longer the case.

[gbwead]

Also, regarding Scald burn chance, perhaps TC shouldn't nerf the new item that prevents Scald burns... and maybe we could see it played more.

[DarylDixon]

23 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Vaporeon can't run haze, heal bell, stored power, calm mind, wish, protect, scald, ice beam, hidden power, roar, baton pass and more all in 1 set. I'm not saying Stored Power is bad, not at all actually, but it's not fair to expect 1 mon to runs 20 moves because otherwise Infernape would be Uber.
 

most common set it's wish,scald,protect and healbell/haze/toxic the problem of you saying about toxicroak it gets stopped so easily with many stuff, and vaporeon can have a good core team with pokes like av eelektross, careful golbat, av  druddigon, calm altaria, if you think toxicroak can be a good thing on it then can you explain me why the usage was so very low?

it wouldnt change even with nidoqueen out of the tier. and nidoqueen can be killed with a good  play to a free sword dance switch in and pressing eq.

Edited February 25 by DarylDixon

[Huargensy]

ban sharpedo

[gbwead]

20 minutes ago, DarylDixon said:

most common set it's wish,scald,protect and healbell/haze/toxic the problem of you saying about toxicroak it gets stopped so easily with many stuff, and vaporeon can have a good core team with pokes like av eelektross, careful golbat, av  druddigon, calm altaria, if you think toxicroak can be a good thing on it then can you explain me why the usage was so very low?

it wouldnt change even with nidoqueen out of the tier. and nidoqueen can be killed with a good  play to a free sword dance switch in and pressing eq.

The usage of Toxicroak might have been low simply because Vaporeon's usage was not very high to begin with. How did Vaporeon with not even 9% get banned anyways? Cmon now.

[JurassicMick]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The usage of Toxicroak might have been low simply because Vaporeon's usage was not very high to begin with. How did Vaporeon with not even 9% get banned anyways? Cmon now.

Usage was low mostly due Golbat/Nidoqueen + Dusclops. Yes you could switch into Vaporeon and attempt to setup but SpA sets were heavily limited by Golbat/Nidoqueen and physical sets have nothing to do against Clops unless you were running some variants. It also gets a bad matching against Arcanine and Impish Qwil overall (Haze, Paint Split, Twave), both pretty common in this meta

[DarylDixon]

12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The usage of Toxicroak might have been low simply because Vaporeon's usage was not very high to begin with. How did Vaporeon with not even 9% get banned anyways? Cmon now.

without thinking the events behind on that month, nu ladder didnt got too many matchs to find. and im pretty sure nowdays if vaporeon gets unbanned it definitelly surpass milotic in usage.

toxicroak with last drops will be irrelevant af

Edited February 25 by DarylDixon

[DarylDixon]

5 minutes ago, JurassicMick said:

Usage was low mostly due Golbat/Nidoqueen + Dusclops. Yes you could switch into Vaporeon and attempt to setup but SpA sets were heavily limited by Golbat/Nidoqueen and physical sets have nothing to do against Clops unless you were running some variants. It also gets a bad matching against Arcanine and Impish Qwil overall (Haze, Paint Split, Twave), both pretty common in this meta

tbh i havent seen many golbats on last month meta, because of nido, but that i'ts also another thing, dont thing qwilfish couldve deal with it. clops wasn't nu yet on nido meta i think. we had too many events up also on the month of january thats why im pretty sureit has low usage vaporeon.

 

if you click vaporeon and toxicroak togheter on tournament usage one it has 13% and the other one 7%

Edited February 25 by DarylDixon