May 2025 Movement Discussion Thread

[Munya]

5.5 up 3.0 down

 

Nothing changes via usage.

 

A hot topic right now in tier discussion is Togekiss in UU if anyone wants to weigh in on that.

[gbwead]

Another mon to chain ban, shocking.

[Munya]

Do you have some useful feedback, are you saying it should be left alone?  And why?

[gbwead]

20 minutes ago, Munya said:

Do you have some useful feedback, are you saying it should be left alone?  And why?

If Lucario was banned as unhealthy, this means the meta without Lucario needs to be healthy or at the very least healthier. If UU still requires bans after the Lucario ban, that means Lucario was not unhealthy and should not have been banned as such.

A Lucario ban as uber would have been fine, but that's not what happened. All the TC members that voted Lucario as unhealthy should not be allowed to vote to ban Togekiss, doing so reveals either incompetence and malice. @Munya, you as leader of TC, should intervene if that is the case. This has been explained over and over in the past few months, I don't see the point of repeating the same arguments again.

[drewq]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

If Lucario was banned as unhealthy, this means the meta without Lucario needs to be healthy or at the very least healthier. If UU still requires bans after the Lucario ban, that means Lucario was not unhealthy and should not have been banned as such.

Source: You quite literally made this up. Why on earth would Lucario and Togekiss being unhealthy be mutually exclusive? Is your expectation for a tier to be perfect after one ban? Do you not believe the meta shifts and adapts after a significant change is made? 
 

Frankly, it’s really not even a talking point. The floor was opened to Togekiss discussion, Lucario is tucked away in the history books. Let’s discuss that. 

[VadimEmpoleon]

Such a shame Durant lost the high usage it had in UU at the start of the month...

[Scootter]

Togekiss is an interesting case because it can quite literally pick and choose its counters. 
Grass knot destroys gigalith and rhyperior, ancient power for rotom-heat, umbreon inner focus does zero damage with foul play and loses the 1v1, inner focus careful haze crobat also 1. loses to ancient power and 2. is awful in the current metagame. Taunt toxic bat can kinda beats it if it isnt scarf? AV inner focus bisharp loses if its flamethrower or aura sphere, and u have to hit a stone edge.

 

I personally am not a huge fan of its presence in the metagame as you often need a check to both scarf and setup variants, which often require different answers. 

[Ziiiiio]

unban raikou UWU so togekiss issue solves

[Scootter]

30 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

unban raikou UWU so togekiss issue solves

with tang here now its not an awful option but idk if that really solves the issue
we'd see more blissey than we already do and its borderline OU by usage if i remember correctly

[VadimEmpoleon]

Nothing has changed to prevent Raikou from doing the same it used to do, keep it banned.

[LiveLaughHate]

The tipping point for raikou was when people realised they could run calm mind and substitute and wish it back to full with blissey to pp stall out its counter's (and there aren't a lot of them) moves and win. Don't see how anything has changed to stop that from still happening.

[JurassicMick]

1 hour ago, LiveLaughHate said:

The tipping point for raikou was when people realised they could run calm mind and substitute and wish it back to full with blissey to pp stall out its counter's (and there aren't a lot of them) moves and win. Don't see how anything has changed to stop that from still happening.

This sounds more like a Blissey issue rather than Raikou tbh

[LiveLaughHate]

19 minutes ago, JurassicMick said:

This sounds more like a Blissey issue rather than Raikou tbh

I wasn't involved in the raikou ban but there were plenty more reasons why it was banned. You are more than welcome to go back through that thread to find them. You will probably also come to the conclusion that raikou was an issue on its own merit. Not to say blissey can't be looked at. I think stall right now is starting to border on too strong even if there are some ways to deal with it.

[JurassicMick]

2 minutes ago, LiveLaughHate said:

I wasn't involved in the raikou ban but there were plenty more reasons why it was banned. You are more than welcome to go back through that thread to find them. You will probably also come to the conclusion that raikou was an issue on its own merit. Not to say blissey can't be looked at. I think stall right now is starting to border on too strong even if there are some ways to deal with it.

Yeah, I saw the threads a I can agree with a good number of arguments but this one is more of a Blissey issue that was pointed back then around the time Blissey was discussed (barely since the main focus was over Entei/Salamence around that time)

[bobliu]

Just keep this meta for a longer test. I havent seen anything abnormal and required to be changed

[Ziiiiio]

After zong and raikou left, togekiss will indeed become a problem.

 

As of now, there are actually some solutions to deal with togekiss.

 

Some combinations are worth trying, such as HA umbreon, and carry batton pass, also TP bliss; so that your CB entei can be swapped in.

 

Gigalith, Rotom, and Bisharp mentioned by scott above can be used as checks, and togekiss has a way to beat all potential checks, but it cannot beat all checks at the same time.

 

Going back to OU in 2020, looking at UU now, Jolteon and Timid Milotic might become options as hard counter. This sounds stupid, but I think this may bring changes. For example, because of Lucario, some players began to carry rotom ghost, and eventually because of UU's usage rate, rotom left NU, and also created a rotom-free environment for NU for a period of time, which is fresh.

 

I think Togekiss can still be retained for a while, at least it is not as perfect as Lucario. it is weak to rocks, has a basic speed of 80, it has serveral checks. Lastly togekiss needs a lot of luck to play.

[razimove]

Magneton and lanturn can also work as viable checks to togekiss while also having some viability on the tier, still obscure picks, but non the less viable ones in my opinion.

[gbwead]

15 hours ago, drewq said:

Source: You quite literally made this up. Why on earth would Lucario and Togekiss being unhealthy be mutually exclusive? Is your expectation for a tier to be perfect after one ban? Do you not believe the meta shifts and adapts after a significant change is made? 
 

Frankly, it’s really not even a talking point. The floor was opened to Togekiss discussion, Lucario is tucked away in the history books. Let’s discuss that. 

Incompetence it is then. If Togekiss and Lucario needed to be banned together, then that is what should have happened. If Lucario or Togekiss got banned alone, you can't go pretending in the same breath that the meta is healthy, but that Togekiss needs to get banned. Those statements are in direct contradiction.

 

@Munya Your members are deliberately shitting on the tiering policy.

Edited April 28 by gbwead

[razimove]

If only that mass release never happened uh who would have guessed that sooner or later the tier would just remove them again?

[gbwead]

Yes we should have kept Haxorus and P2 banned. Let's also pretend like Raikou and Togekiss were on the BL list before, so we can justify chain banning mons as simple "rebans".

 

Out of the mass release of BL mons, only Staraptor and Lucario got banned. Can we please stop justifying non sense with more non sense?

Edited April 28 by gbwead

[Scootter]

talking about a mon that has a 60% chance to ruin ur game and can beat its checks is nonsense??

[Lilyrain]

25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Yes we should have kept Haxorus and P2 banned. Let's also pretend like Raikou and Togekiss were on the BL list before, so we can justify chain banning mons as simple "rebans".

 

Out of the mass release of BL mons, only Staraptor and Lucario got banned. Can we please stop justifying non sense with more non sense?

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Incompetence it is then. If Togekiss and Lucario needed to be banned together, then that is what should have happened. If Lucario or Togekiss got banned alone, you can't go pretending in the same breath that the meta is healthy, but that Togekiss needs to get banned. Those statements are in direct contradiction.

 

@Munya Your members are deliberately shitting on the tiering policy.

All I'm hearing is a lot of complaining and not a lot of good reasoning why you believe what you believe. It's pretty standard to ban mons one by one, not sure why this is blowing your mind. If you want to complain, then complain that the tiering process is too slow, but oh wait, you also immediately complain when it's too fast.

How about you start presenting the stats you love so much, or maybe some actual calcs or good arguments for why Togekiss should be allowed to stay. That would be better instead of continually lamenting over the tiering process or past tiering decisions, as that is neither on-topic nor productive because I get the sense that that will fall on deaf ears.

[Scootter]

6 hours ago, Ziiiiio said:

 

Gigalith, Rotom, and Bisharp mentioned by scott above can be used as checks, and togekiss has a way to beat all potential checks, but it cannot beat all checks at the same time.

 

Going back to OU in 2020, looking at UU now, Jolteon and Timid Milotic might become options as hard counter.

While there are checks, its unhealthy to say 

“yea lets make the players run 2 of the 3 so they can cover for 4 variations of togekiss” 

 

Not to mention, timid haze milotic and jolteon are garbage pokemon. I can’t sit here and listen to people argue in good faith that perennial 35% winrate mons are good because of a flinch machine.

 

CM wish jolteon is a complete and utter momentum sink into any ground type, blissey, and umbreon

[TohnR]

22 minutes ago, Scootter said:

CM wish jolteon is a complete and utter momentum sink into any ground type, blissey, and umbreon

Wish Baton Pass Confuse Ray Substitute Jolteon dude.
How could you forget the best set ?

 

1 hour ago, razimove said:

Magneton and lanturn can also work as viable checks to togekiss

Magneton evio has been a rly nice mon in UU for years but being slower than Togekiss sucks sadly. Scarf magneton is kinda an unmon.
Lanturn checks a few things in UU but doesn't do enough for it to be viable on balanced.
Surely stall has a lot of good options for Togekiss and could run Lanturn tho.

I'm not saying Togekiss is banworthy or anything, little do I know. I'm just none of the answers is convincing.
It's just that Milotic Jolteon Lanturn Magneton Bisharp all seem to be either shaky answers or weak mons in the tier.
And SpD Rotom-H was historically performing poorly, people tried it for Shaymin too, or for Yanmega, it never really worked as a stable answer for anything that I remember of.

Edited April 28 by TohnR

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, Scootter said:

talking about a mon that has a 60% chance to ruin ur game and can beat its checks is nonsense??

Non sense is acting like a Togekiss ban is linked in any way to the mass release of BL mons when Togekiss has never been BL. That shouldn't be difficult to understand.

 

2 minutes ago, Lilyrain said:

All I'm hearing is a lot of complaining and not a lot of good reasoning why you believe what you believe. It's pretty standard to ban mons one by one, not sure why this is blowing your mind. If you want to complain, then complain that the tiering process is too slow, but oh wait, you also immediately complain when it's too fast.

How about you start presenting the stats you love so much, or maybe some actual calcs or good arguments for why Togekiss should be allowed to stay. That would be better instead of continually lamenting over the tiering process or past tiering decisions, as that is neither on-topic nor productive because I get the sense that that will fall on deaf ears.

I will complain if the tiering policy is not respected period. It's not standard to ban unhealthy mons one by one. They get banned together or not at all. You can ban uber mons one by one tho. The TC members chain banning mons as unhealthy should not be allowed to do so. You can look at past and current tiering etiquette and policy; chain banning mons as unhealthy will always be stupid.

 

Why would I argue that the tiering policy is not respected with statistics? And even if I wanted to make a statistical argument in the first place, I'm not a deranged animal like you guys were in October drawing absurd conclusions over a few weeks of data. Statistics have not even crossed my mind since I'm arguing about the tiering policy, not about Togekiss and w.e mon you guys will find a way to cry about.