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[Denied] IV inheritance change


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Didn't we have one of these pretty recently? I don't recall rejecting that one. Anyways, I've had this debate a lot of times, several times when reworking breeding and several more in the months afterwards. It breaks down like this:

  • There are a few stages of gameplay that we currently provide, those being:
    • The noob phase. This is where players get their initial pogeymans and blow through the gyms because their AI is terrible.
    • The refinement phase. This is mostly Post-E4 content. This is where players build their teams and participate in the game's economy for the first time, usually.
    • Post-Refinement phase. This is where we lack the most content because this is where the vanilla game ends. This encompasses: Casual PvP, Structured PvP Post-Sevii PvE, Crafting/Economic Min/Maxing. 

Breeding's refinement only encompasses part of the game's progression. Making this stage of the game too difficult will cause massive amounts of player frustration as we can all remember with BikeMMO/initial Breeding implementations. I'll be clear on this: Building your team is not the intended endgame. We don't believe it should take dozens upon dozens of hours to make the game playable for a new player. 

  • Breeding is always going to be better than going out and catching pokemon.

There is no way around this. We can move some of the benefits from Breeding away from it, but IVs being good are always going to be a thing. Nerfing breeding into the ground would only serve to delay the inevitable, and removing it entirely would create a large disparity between the capabilities of a new and old player (even if we wiped character progress). A work around for the team disparity issue would be to equalise some variable stats in PvP, but this is effectively what breeding is currently doing.

 

We'll probably tweak some of the mechanics further at some later date, but we feel we've hit the right balance for what we want to do in terms of stat inheritance. The main problem to me is that there is not much to do after breeding.

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Didn't we have one of these pretty recently? I don't recall rejecting that one. Anyways, I've had this debate a lot of times, several times when reworking breeding and several more in the months afterwards. It breaks down like this:

  • There are a few stages of gameplay that we currently provide, those being:
    • The noob phase. This is where players get their initial pogeymans and blow through the gyms because their AI is terrible.
    • The refinement phase. This is mostly Post-E4 content. This is where players build their teams and participate in the game's economy for the first time, usually.
    • Post-Refinement phase. This is where we lack the most content because this is where the vanilla game ends. This encompasses: Casual PvP, Structured PvP Post-Sevii PvE, Crafting/Economic Min/Maxing. 

Breeding's refinement only encompasses part of the game's progression. Making this stage of the game too difficult will cause massive amounts of player frustration as we can all remember with BikeMMO/initial Breeding implementations. I'll be clear on this: Building your team is not the intended endgame. We don't believe it should take dozens upon dozens of hours to make the game playable for a new player. 

  • Breeding is always going to be better than going out and catching pokemon.

There is no way around this. We can move some of the benefits from Breeding away from it, but IVs being good are always going to be a thing. Nerfing breeding into the ground would only serve to delay the inevitable, and removing it entirely would create a large disparity between the capabilities of a new and old player (even if we wiped character progress). A work around for the team disparity issue would be to equalise some variable stats in PvP, but this is effectively what breeding is currently doing.

 

We'll probably tweak some of the mechanics further at some later date, but we feel we've hit the right balance for what we want to do in terms of stat inheritance. The main problem to me is that there is not much to do after breeding.

Thank you for the clear and detailed reply.

 

While I mostly agree with all the points you have presented, I think one of the current problems, and possibly one of the most difficult to address without essentially overhauling the system, is that the rich will get richer.

 

Since is there is such a low chance to obtain a better Pokemon than what you started with (due to the range variability being 3 in the positive direction, and 8 in the negative direction), you MUST have good parents to begin with. While this does promote community play and friend making, I think it is a little bit wrong that someone who wants to play on their own can't really do it. It makes no sense to spend hours trying to catch good parents in the wild, only to have to produce another Pokemon because you need an egg move on it, when you could just reap the benefits of others' efforts.

 

Also, even when we have more lategame content such as (potentially) dungeons, PvE/PvP towers, and others, there will be little reason to leave those areas. The Pokemon world is HUGE, and when we get new regions (eventually), it will only get bigger. It is sad that there is no incentive whatsoever to go anywhere other than the areas I mentioned. I guess I wish catching had a role since it is a more immersive and fun mechanic, in my opinion, but any excuse would be good. I think toying with the idea of swarms is interesting, or something along those lines.

 

Yes, any game has preferred/lategame areas, but I think there is unfulfilled potential somewhere.

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Thank you for the clear and detailed reply.

 

While I mostly agree with all the points you have presented, I think one of the current problems, and possibly one of the most difficult to address without essentially overhauling the system, is that the rich will get richer.

 

Since is there is such a low chance to obtain a better Pokemon than what you started with (due to the range variability being 3 in the positive direction, and 8 in the negative direction), you MUST have good parents to begin with. While this does promote community play and friend making, I think it is a little bit wrong that someone who wants to play on their own can't really do it. It makes no sense to spend hours trying to catch good parents in the wild, only to have to produce another Pokemon because you need an egg move on it, when you could just reap the benefits of others' efforts.

 

Also, even when we have more lategame content such as (potentially) dungeons, PvE/PvP towers, and others, there will be little reason to leave those areas. The Pokemon world is HUGE, and when we get new regions (eventually), it will only get bigger. It is sad that there is no incentive whatsoever to go anywhere other than the areas I mentioned. I guess I wish catching had a role since it is a more immersive and fun mechanic, in my opinion, but any excuse would be good. I think toying with the idea of swarms is interesting, or something along those lines.

 

Yes, any game has preferred/lategame areas, but I think there is unfulfilled potential somewhere.

a piece of the puzzle i think your missing is that the process of breeding provides loads of good parents to be breeders. (guesstimating here) something like 1/10-1/20 comp to breeder ratio. and what do people do when they spit out a breeder? possibly replace the ones they are using and sell the ones they don't need. because everyone breeds the market is flooded with great breeders cheap because the supply is greater then the demand. as a result new players can get a good nature breeder with the egg moves already on it and 1 bad iv along with a bad nature one with all good iv's very very cheap and then breed gods quickly. a new player who i have been teaching went from having literally nothing but some cash from the story line to breeding some of the best bagons on the server in a few weeks doing exactly that. if your willing to put some time into it the tools are there and the guides teaching you how are here on the forums with helpful staff/players as well.

 

sorry if this is a little unstructured/messy/rambling i just woke up

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yeah the eco in this game is sooo bad, wish they would have just left lucky eggs alone honestly.

 

I don't think xGilanx was referring to the economy Pre-Pokedollar.

If he were, the answer would be a very swift 'no'.

The Lucky Egg economy was awful; obtaining a Lucky Egg is largely down to RNG, and Lucky Eggs do not leave the market, making them a very bad base for a stable economy in any case.

 

 

Kyu, are you content with the current state of PokeMMO's economy? cause that was one of the main reasons why I came up with this idea.

 

Could you expand on what you mean by this?

I'm not doubting that your concerns are genuine, however I'd like to hear what you dislike about the current economy.

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I don't think xGilanx was referring to the economy Pre-Pokedollar.
 
Could you expand on what you mean by this
I'm not doubting that your concerns are genuine, however I'd like to hear what you dislike about the current economy.


Yeah, I definitely was not referring to lucky eggs.

I would expand by saying that everything is deflated in value. Need a 4 31 iv pokemon? no problem, only costs me about 100k (understatement, but not by much) which really doesn't take that long to get a comp pokemon, which would be fine if there weren't 50 other people doing the same exact thing. This just floods the market even more and there is simply no challenge to any of it (subjective here). So what I really mean, is that the current economy of this game is so poor/cheap that it amplifies the lack of a challenge for producing comp pokemon.

I know kyu said that they don't want building the team to be the end game, but I still think that there should be more of a challenge to it. This is all due to the current breeding system.
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Yeah, I definitely was not referring to lucky eggs.

I would expand by saying that everything is deflated in value. Need a 4 31 iv pokemon? no problem, only costs me about 100k (understatement, but not by much) which really doesn't take that long to get a comp pokemon, which would be fine if there weren't 50 other people doing the same exact thing. This just floods the market even more and there is simply no challenge to any of it (subjective here). So what I really mean, is that the current economy of this game is so poor/cheap that it amplifies the lack of a challenge for producing comp pokemon.

I know kyu said that they don't want building the team to be the end game, but I still think that there should be more of a challenge to it. This is all due to the current breeding system.

 

what do you not understand? i refuse to take an entire week to breed one comp pkmn. what people enjoy the most on this game or practically any game is pvp, and the only way for this game to get big is to promote that through cheap pokes

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the economy is so bad because we are useing yen i think if they used like speical yen that we only can get by tradeing for stuff and we all started with 100k of it the economy wouldnt be so bad its like we are printing money with out backing it up breeding is so easy because money is sort of easy to getand theres so much of it  the speical yen would be backed up with the rarity of it so we wouldnt have a bad inflation due to easy to get yen :P

 

 

[spoiler]i messed up somewhere becuase i acedently deleted half of it and had to fill it back in :P but you get the idea[/spoiler]

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what do you not understand? i refuse to take an entire week to breed one comp pkmn. what people enjoy the most on this game or practically any game is pvp, and the only way for this game to get big is to promote that through cheap pokes

You are thinking about it wrong. While breeding for that week, you will almost undoubtedly produce many pokemon that could be sold as breeders. This profit would allow you to buy 2+ more competitive pokemon from other people. Right now people are capable of breeding 3+ competitive pokemon themselves and buying even more in one week.

also, you are thinking about pokeMMO's pvp in terms of something like showdown, where people should be able to easily produce what they want and then battle. I'm thinking about PokeMMO's pvp in terms of a reward system, where the satisfaction when one wins is much greater due to the effort that it requires to get to that point.

Breeding is not insanely easy.Even if it is the value of it drops as many people have them. Terrible suggestion. Sorry.

If you know how to actually breed, it is very easy, and my suggestion assumes that people know how to breed. Check out the hidden power breeding guide, and you will learn how to relatively easily produce correct hidden power pokemon.

edit:

the economy is so bad because we are useing yen i think if they used like speical yen that we only can get by tradeing for stuff and we all started with 100k of it the economy wouldnt be so bad its like we are printing money with out backing it up breeding is so easy because money is sort of easy to getand theres so much of it  the speical yen would be backed up with the rarity of it so we wouldnt have a bad inflation due to easy to get yen :P
 
 
[spoiler]i messed up somewhere becuase i acedently deleted half of it and had to fill it back in :P but you get the idea[/spoiler]


Ok, to address this. I have thought about this to stabilize the economy; however, I believe that what would happen is not what you would expect. Rather, the value of that currency would be relatively hogh, but the value (not the price) of the pokemon would stay the same. Therefore, the price of the pokemon would drop, and the issue would not be solved.

to solve the issue (which I believe to exist), the value of the pokemon would have to change, which would require an alteration in the difficulty at which they are obtained.
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If you know how to actually breed, it is very easy, and my suggestion assumes that people know how to breed. Check out the hidden power breeding guide, and you will learn how to relatively easily produce correct hidden power pokemon.
 

People that know how to breed.. Here, i'll explain it for you. You put two pokemon with the correct Hidden Power together. Make sure the ivs are set to what you want. And as the daycare guy says.. No one knows how the egg gets there. It is very luck based.

                                                      fn4V0wO.gif

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I see your point here that the value in pokemon are declining due to the reason that they can be produced in a very short time, however, people before the december update were complaining it was too hard ( I also see that you have started in January 2014). Anyways, before the december update, the pokemon's ivs were three ivs randomly picked(like right now) but the other ivs were the average of the parents, so for example, two parents with 31 and 31 in Attack and Attack wasn't inherited, it would be 0-31, just like 27 and 27 would be 0-27. With those iv ranges in mind, did you know how long it took to get one decent pokemon? It took weeks( it did in those times take weeks, I'm not exaggerating). I ended up with tons of my "competitive" pokemon at that time with only 25+ hp 25+ Att 0-10 def 0-1 sp att 0-10 sp def 31 speed and the reverse for Special Attackers, and I'm not a bad breeder. 

 

To finish up if the iv ranges were changed back to this, a lot of people would quit just like in the months of october to december when the iv ranges were like this and the competitive aspect in pokemmo would kind of disappear.

 

One more thing, pokemon that weren't garbage couldn't be found in trade unless the person desperately needed a crap ton of money, or decided they needed a new comp

Edited by Ultimatechris
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I see your point here that the value in pokemon are declining due to the reason that they can be produced in a very short time, however, people before the december update were complaining it was too hard ( I also see that you have started in January 2014).

Just because this forum account was created in jan 2014 does not mean that's when I started playing. I started playing in early 2013. So yes I do know what it was like before the december update.

To speak to the rest of your post, what I suggest would still be better than the 0-avg range system. It would still use the -8/+3 concept but it changes how the direct ivs are passed. It wouldn't take us bak to pre-december.

People that know how to breed.. Here, i'll explain it for you. You put two pokemon with the correct Hidden Power together. Make sure the ivs are set to what you want. And as the daycare guy says.. No one knows how the egg gets there. It is very luck based.

Umm, yes it is luck based, but you just described the scenario where you can effectively control your luck. In that scenario you will produce correct hidden power pokemon relatively easily... I don't know if you understand the extent of the impact of this on the game...? (not to mention, my first idea won't change this).


Finally, speaking to southshaker (sorry on my phone),
I don't see your point. If they don't care about ivs and nature, then why should this concern them? This is for the game that people play after the story line (noob phase).
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I make an assload of money breeding specifically because UTs still hold some serious value. I don't see a problem with the breeding economy at all. They're cheap enough that you can get a usable UT for ~100k, but if you want something spectacular you'll need to throw down 300-400k at least. That's a pretty reasonable barrier to entry for the comp scene. 100k per comp (plus all the effort of EVing and leveling) means that getting a team together, especially with substitutions, is still a substantial investment.

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I make an assload of money breeding specifically because UTs still hold some serious value. I don't see a problem with the breeding economy at all. They're cheap enough that you can get a usable UT for ~100k, but if you want something spectacular you'll need to throw down 300-400k at least. That's a pretty reasonable barrier to entry for the comp scene. 100k per comp (plus all the effort of EVing and leveling) means that getting a team together, especially with substitutions, is still a substantial investment.


Just buy a spectacular UT with the wrong nature and/or ability for cheap, and then pair it up with a mediocre pokemon with the correct nature, and you bypass this "barrier".
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You also seem to think that 1 comp of each Pokemon is enough. First of all you have Singles pokes and Doubles pokes. Second of all there are a lot of pokes that can have multiple sets or even fill different roles based on their movesets EVs. For example I bred 8 different dragons with different moves and natures. That did take me atleast a week and I still need to train most of those up.

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So, spend a couple hours breeding? Yeah, I'm still seeing the barrier.

 

You also seem to think that 1 comp of each Pokemon is enough. First of all you have Singles pokes and Doubles pokes. Second of all there are a lot of pokes that can have multiple sets or even fill different roles based on their movesets EVs. For example I bred 8 different dragons with different moves and natures. That did take me atleast a week and I still need to train most of those up.

 

Wait... So you guys think that a couple hours / one week is a long time? This might be another thing where we don't see eye to eye. In a MMO, 1 week is no time whatsoever... ThinkNice, you were also able to make more than 6 pokemon (the number for a single team) in a week... And most likely you also sold off a lot of the by-products for extra cash to buy even more comp viable pokemon... In my opinion, that's too fast.

 

ThinkNice, I am perfectly aware of the different sets for each pokemon. I have 4 different Kingdra sets, 2 different Blissey sets, 3 different mence sets, etc. But to tell you the truth, that really did not take me that long to make. In fact it was really easy.

 

It also seems to me that you guys want perfect 31 pokemon, which, yes that WOULD take a long time. But a perfect 31 pokemon shouldn't be something that everyone should be able to get with relatively little effort... (sorry for the runescape reference, but it would be like saying that if everyone puts in a little effort in a week you can all get party hats). Unless, you guys don't really want PokeMMO to be an MMO. If it weren't an MMO, then yes everyone could have the best (welcome to showdown).

 

Then again, I bought a 31 speed 31 special attack and 27+ in all the other ivs Timid Eevee with egg moves for about 300k... I think something like this ought to have been worth so much more... It doesn't seem right to me. I mean, I can't buy one of the greatest weapons in NeverWinter (another MMO) for relatively that cheap.

 

Furthermore, if you think about this in the long term, the faster the production of these godly pokemon the more there are in the game. Since there is absolutely no "Pokemon sink" in this game, they will continue to exist in the game and eventually there will be no need for breeding (Players quitting, does not count as a sink). The reason that you aren't seeing it right now, is because we are still climbing out of what was before the December update. Not that long ago we saw the Smeargles and the Eevees completely devalue the Field egg group. That is spreading (basically already has) throughout the other egg groups.

 

I see something that kills MMO's. But if everyone wants this game to be more like Showdown, rather than an MMO, then my worries are for naught.

To specify, MMO's survive on satisfaction, time, goals (which most satisfy with skills and quests, etc. But those don't fit this game), social interactions, and leader boards (which really just fits into "goals"). At the moment, I see issues with two of those characteristics. Satisfaction and time. And that's what I've been trying to address throughout this entire thread.

 

I think breeding is fine the way it is. It would be completely unfair to new players to nerf it. If there is a nerf it should be minor, such as -8/+3 to -10/+4. This would be more random, but not impossible.

This has already been addressed. To sum it up: basically any changes to breeding that are made would be unfair to either new players or existing players, that cannot be avoided.

 

and -8/+3 -> -10/+4 could be argued whether or not that is a nerf or a buff.

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Wait... So you guys think that a couple hours / one week is a long time? This might be another thing where we don't see eye to eye. In a MMO, 1 week is no time whatsoever... 

 

It also seems to me that you guys want perfect 31 pokemon, which, yes that WOULD take a long time. But a perfect 31 pokemon shouldn't be something that everyone should be able to get with relatively little effort... (sorry for the runescape reference, but it would be like saying that if everyone puts in a little effort in a week you can all get party hats). Unless, you guys don't really want PokeMMO to be an MMO. If it weren't an MMO, then yes everyone could have the best (welcome to showdown).

 

for some people it is a long time, just because you have way more time to play this mmo than others and feel less satisfaction breeding godly pkmn fast, doesn't mean others who dont have alot of time to grind have to suffer from your desire for a difficulty increase

 

there's a reason why breeding is easy and should NOT be compared to your runescape reference. for instance, pkmn are worth atleast a hundred times less than a partyhat was back in the early days (keep in mind, we're still at ALPHA stage). also considering the amount of pokes we have to breed for each competitive tier and pkmn with different sets. when you've bred and raised around 100 competitive pkmn (i dont even have 50 and im from 2012 lol), you dont even get close to the value of a partyhat

 

soon (2018 (tm)) there will be more content to grind from like battle tower, legend dungeons and all that crap, and you suggest making breeding harder when we need more pokes to use for the soon added content? does that even make sense?

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