NU Viability Thread

[Asunamaster12]

where would poliwrath go?

[Tyrone]

where would poliwrath go?

Somewhere between B+ and A

[Kizhaz]

 

Playing NU yesterday reminded me of how deadly Zangoose is. I used it every match and I witnessed it in a number of matches. The CB set is absolutely destructive and is almost has zero risk associated with it. The Swords Dance set is even scarier late-game when you've removed the one threat your 4MSS doesn't cover. 

 

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 228-272 (128.8 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 158-186 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Misdreavus: 107-127 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 76-90 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

There really are zero switch-ins (think CB Rhydon in UU). And then just to add, we all know how powerful STAB DE or Return are against anything that doesn't resist it. 

 

Let's make a decision on this bad boy. 

 

 

I kinda have to agree with this, although it does has some dedicated counters cough relicanth cough It is similar to Fearow. Slightly slower but hits way harder, and people were arguing about Fearow being too powerful for NU, obv Fearow had another stab hence why it is considered stronger. I could see it at S

[OrangeManiac]

I agree. S it is for now until someone has some reason why it shouldn't be.

Suggesting Poliwrath for A. Insane diversity, can be a legit sweeper but I think it is most commonly used as a counter to Rock-spam with some bulk. Counters Armaldo, Kabutops and all those Rock-types really nicely so if Rock-weakness is a problem to a team slapping Poliwrath should do it. In addition you have to be constantly scared of the ever notorious Belly Drum set.

Kabutops for B/B+. Alright Choice Bander, can make sweeps with Rain Dance... overall fairly hard to counter barring Bellossom/Tangela and Poliwrath. Due to these Pokemon being really common I'd say B rank might be the best for Kabutops but it has notably over 10% usage while ago usage wise might be a bit too low rank.

Shiftry: B. Alright stats, alright diversity, can punish Water-filled metagame alright. Too frail and too slow, though. And shit typing.

Mantine: B+. Can be an alright RD sweeper, can be a nice wall. Hardly used though, not the go-to water-type. But it's a good Pokemon.

Solrock for B: Alright physical check for things. I might rate it C but since I see it fairly often I guess people somewhat like it.

Muk for B: Curseset can surprise things and sweep them when Psychics/Groundspammers are down.



Aand while I'm at it let's put some lower ranks just because the thread should look cooler.



Girafarig for C: Hard outclassed by other Psychic-types but not a bad mon as its own.

Jumpluff for C: Barely used, Sub Seed sent tends to be highly underwhelming especially in offensive metagame.

Lunatone for C: Kinda meh typing, meh base stats. Levitate is cool I guess. Outclassed by other Psychic-types.

Pidgeot for C: Could be an alright sweeper but just outclassed by Zangoose hard for Normal-spam and gets walled by Rock-types a bit too awfully.

Relicanth for C: Can work as an alright sweeper, CBer and a physical check to things but I just see other rock/water-types being used for more reasons.

Shuckle for C: 7.8 / 10. Too much water. - IGN

Edited February 18, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[OrangeManiac]

Added these. Feel free to discuss.

[Tyrone]

Added NU Viability again, feel free to name candidates.

 

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Tyrone said:

Added NU Viability again, feel free to name candidates.

Kingler S

Granbull S

Sharpedo S

 

All 3 got incredible wallbreaking/ sweeping power and definietly everyone has to consider the great 3 before making a NU team.

 

For now only those 3 come to my mind as S. Raichu probably A or A+, same for Victreebel- Raichu is just pure awesome with it's mixed stats and great speed, while Victreebel's raw power enables it to 1-2 shot the entire tier and even with the amount of psychic types in here it's still as viable as ever.

Electrode probably A as well, fastest poke in tier, perfect lead. Shame that it's movepool is as poor as my character in pokemmo.

Tangela A as well, bulky physical grass type which stops a huge amount of physical metagame. Bellossom probably A- as it's physically less bulky and slower, but has the special bulk that Tangela does not have.

Solrock A as well- awesome defensive wall which stops the tier's most powerful sweepers like Scyther, Fearow and Pinsir. Immune to EQ, has reliable recovery and generally quite underestimated movepool which also allows it to go mixed.

 

I would prefer someone to put some initial ranks based on his feelings ( @OrangeManiac ?) and then we could maybe discuss it further.

[ShadowGary]

Kingler S

Granbull A+

Sharpedo S

Electrode A+

These are the greatest sweepers of our current NU. Though I haven't seen a lot of Granbull yet, It's crazy stats speak for it's self in this case, that's why it should A+ imo.

Trode is one of those nice clean up pokes, really nice to have, and it's incredible speed even helps you beat some scarfers which is pretty neat too.

Kingler is just one of those pokemons that can fuck your team up if you didn't bring counter to it(Tangela/Poli), even though SpAttackers shut it down, it's still a crazy strong pokemon to have in your team and is at the top of our meta right now imo(Have yet to see a team without a Kingler in it in Ranked).

Sharpedo is just simply an amazing clean up pokemon with few counters.

[Gazelli]

Victreebell A+

Fearow A+

 

I think Victreebell should be A+ or even S cause it can easily switch into polis without ice beam and threaten every poke in the tier, due to the fact it can be an SD set or sunny set. Just, generally there aren't that many checks to it, but since its not that fast it could be A+. 

I'd say fearow is definately A+ just because there are checks to it, but if those checks are weakened due to spikes or prior damage, fearow can potentially clean up the opponent's team. Both flying and normal stab means that even misdreavus and sableye are threatened. The only viable solid checks I see are aggron, solrock, golem as well as shuckle.

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 78-93 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 85-102 (50.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 69-82 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 76-91 (48.4 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

[fredrichnietze]

so orange is dead right? 

[Gunthug]

13 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

so orange is dead right? 

I believe he is braving the great white north

[fredrichnietze]

3 hours ago, Gunthug said:

I believe he is braving the great white north

so dead

 

 

should we start a new one of these threads?

[OrangeManiac]

I'm not entirely dead, I might be on now and then but 

 

On 14.7.2016 at 9:18 PM, Gunthug said:

I believe he is braving the great white north

This is true.

 

Might be honestly better if someone else takes over.

 

 

Anyways, I guess I'll share my thoughts with the discussion openers based on the NU tier I played while I still played (I doubt Quag, Buzz, Gligar and Absol change too much about this):

 

Kingler - Definitely S. I hate to be that "dem base stats" - guy but.......... seriously that raw power is insane. The fact it can CB, Scarf, or Flail which isnt stopped even by Tangela makes it easy S.

 

Granbull I agree on A+ with Gary, not calling it a S rank. It's powerful on paper but underperforms in battle mainly due to even getting OHKOd by so many specs users. Might not even get a hit off. When it does you can still play around with it with right switch ins (Tangela, MisD etc.)

 

Sharpedo..... I wouldn't call it S either. That's just me. The most common set I see is the Life Orber which sure hits hard but leaves it vulnerable to a single priority move and scarf. In addition it's not a OHKO machine, it gets countered to an extent with Poliwrath, Tangela (the physical hits and then something else takes the Rice Beam) and it just isn't the fastest Pokemon. I'd call it A+ but if everyone is on board with the S train then I'm fine with it too.

 

Electrode - A+ before, now A. Cuz Buzz does even better what it does, sweep without being walled by pretty much anything.

 

Electabuzz - S. See above.

 

Victreebel - A+. Definitely agreed. Strong asf. Impossible to wall unless you run Sp. Def Hypno or Sp. Def Flareon. Insane late game sweeping power with that Sunny Day sweeping set. oh lol Hypno went UU wtf

 

Fearow - A+. Agreed as well.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[fredrichnietze]

8 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

sweep without being walled by pretty much anything.

is this not the definition of offensive uber?

[BurntZebra]

1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

is this not the definition of offensive uber?

I mean electabuzz definitely has counters. Sp def nidoqueen, sp def raichu, sp def bellossom, camerupt, claydol. Obviously some of those are a bit shaky since electabuzz could theoretically predict correctly every switch, but none of them are even 2hko'ed by electabuzz even when electabuzz predicts the right move. 

[Tyrone]

Gorebyss for A+

Sweep potential with physical bulk is amazing.

 

Qwilfish for B-

If played well, it can set up spikes and get a revengekill on anything.

[BurntZebra]

Endure salac+dbond is rather obvious though. Gazelli tried it vs yubell in the psl and yubell definitely saw through the strategy and just went to golduck to start cm'ing vs a qwilfish and it's a 50/50 guess ing game of spikes and dbond as well. There are better spikers with more reliable offensive pressure and there are better ways to revenge kill Pokemon as well.

 

my phone also tried to autocorrect qwilfish as weakfish, a testament to how bad qwilfish is. If it had intimidate or toxic spikes, it might have a more realistic niche in the tier.

[pachima]

55 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

Endure salac+dbond is rather obvious though. Gazelli tried it vs yubell in the psl and yubell definitely saw through the strategy and just went to golduck to start cm'ing vs a qwilfish and it's a 50/50 guess ing game of spikes and dbond as well. There are better spikers with more reliable offensive pressure and there are better ways to revenge kill Pokemon as well.

 

my phone also tried to autocorrect qwilfish as weakfish, a testament to how bad qwilfish is. If it had intimidate or toxic spikes, it might have a more realistic niche in the tier.

qwilfish has taunt though

[LifeStyle]

On 7/16/2016 at 7:39 PM, BurntZebra said:

I mean electabuzz definitely has counters. Sp def nidoqueen, sp def raichu, sp def bellossom, camerupt, claydol. Obviously some of those are a bit shaky since electabuzz could theoretically predict correctly every switch, but none of them are even 2hko'ed by electabuzz even when electabuzz predicts the right move. 

Grumpig/Kecleon also wall it, scarf Diglett can trap and ohko buzz with EQ

Buzz is cool tho but wouldn't call it S, maybe A+ is better suited as it's one of the best NU sweepers

Speaking of Diglett tho, it has a niche for trapping stuff like frail sweepers or sp def walls like Raichu/Flareon and it has Memento to help ur next poke set up something and sweep

Worst thing it can happen to it is getting revenge killed by Fearow's Pursuit but I'd say it's at least a B rank for dat Digboi

[OrangeManiac]

Let's get this shit started.

 

Kingler - S. Everybody agreed it's S so S. Insane raw power with one of the best physical STABs in the game. So unpredictable and due to SD + Sub + Flail + Crabhammer set it's literally uncounterable even with Tangela.

 

Granbull - A+ for now. Insane power but doesn't shine against specs metagame from which there's multiple Pokemon that can one shot it while there's no safe switch ins to specs users anyways. Also needs 'some' prediction to kill things.

 

Sharpedo - A+. You're all on board with S but as my post really didn't get any critique about Sharpedo I'll put it A+ now because I really don't think it's S. Life Orb Shark is a scary sweeper but it does have counters (Poliwrath, Hitmontop etc.) and priority gets the best of it. In addition running a random scarf here and there can troll OrbShark. Insane coverage but not the most reliable sweeper of the tier.

 

Electrode - A. Great sweeper, very top of the speed tier, nice coverage. I suppose because of its speed there are some reasons to run this over Electabuzz and because of it's high relevance in the scarf metagame then putting A is fair.

 

Electabuzz - S. While I realize you can counter Electabuzz, the raw power + coverage is insane. Orb Buzz sweeps stuff late game with such ease, not many things outspeed it. Specs Buzz kills things you wouldn't expect it to... just a beast.

 

Victreebel - A+. There are so little counters to Victreebel anymore, it all lies on the hands of Flareon and Rapidash anymore really. Orb Victreebel hits soooooooo hard and can easily sweep any team on any given day.

 

Fearow - A. Everyone knows the notorious NU Fearow from back in the day but it has its hard counters like Aggron, Golem and lesser counters like Kabutops and Solrock which can turn the momentum against it. Great sweeper but not necessarily even S material anymore due to being on of the top tier sweepers that can be actually countered quite hard.

 

Gorebyss - A+. Yeah it stronk, pretty much like a water equivalence of Vic.

 

Qwilfish - B-. lol k tyrone.

[gbwead]

I agree with everything, except for one little mistake when you list Kabutops (UU by usage) as one of Fearow's counter.

 

My perspective about other NU pokemons that we see from time to time.

 

S rank

• Absol  
  crazy wallbreaker with huge movepool, stab pursuit hurts like hell and its decent spatk stat allows it to be played as a mixed pokemon

A+ rank

• Raichu
  When you face a Raichu, you never know what to expect. It can wall with Wish, walbreak with physical or special moves and can even sweep tahnks to its good speed. 
• Misdreavus
  Good typing, good bulk, good speed. A team that isn't prepared for Misdreavus is going to be a in lot of trouble. CM + Sub Misdreavus is quite dangerous. Perish Song Misdreavus can catch many by surprise.
• Venomoth
  Extremely good coverage. Giga Drain, Psychic, HP Ground, Signal Beam (stab) and Sludge Bomb (stab) can pretty much sweep trought anything that isn't a special wall.

A rank

• Xatu
  Early Bird, CM, OrangeManiac, gg.
• Glalie
  Galie is probably the best spiker right now and puts tremedous pressure on the opponent.
• Grumpig
  Cleric, Phazer, Grumpig can do many things. Thanks to its Bulk, it can set up CM, hide behind a Sub and cause serious problem for an unprepared opponent.
• Golduck
  Golduck got decent speed, bulk and spatk. As a CM user, it can threathen everythign thanks to its perfect coverage and the sweeps are real.
• Kecleon
  Invaluable special wall right now. Color Change allows Kecleon to take hits from Special Choice Band user with ease and it also makes it immune to freeze from Ice Beam, burn from Flamethrower, para from Tbolt and poison from Sludgebomb. Having access Recover is also quite handy.
• Poliwrath
  The typing is everything. Without Hitmontop in NU, Poliwrath is now everywhere to stop Aggron, Sharpedo, Flareon and Solrock. 
• Scyther
  Dangerous sweeper that doesn't fear much after a SD.
• Gligar
  Ground + Flying coverage is quite rare and extremly deadly. If it wasn't for the bulky water pokemons in the tier and solrock, Gligar would be S rank without a doubt.
• Walrein
  Very few pokemons can switch on Walrein considerign how many movesets and ev spread are available to that monster. 
• Pinsir
  Pinsir with its good defensive typing, its high atk stat and decent speed can threathen pretty much anything. It is incredibly difficult to wall since when facing a Pinsir you never know if it is CB or SD. It can break through the meta with relative ease.
• Flareon
  Cleric, Wisher, Special Wall, Mixed Attacker. If Flareon didn't lack speed or some coverage moves, it would certainly be uber. 
• Quagsire
  As soon as that grass pokemon dies, you know Quagsire is going to be a huge pain. Curse Quagsire is huge threath while regular wall Quagsire can fit in various teams.

B + rank

• Girafarig
  Similar to Grumpig or Xatu, but with less bulk or less raw power.
• Nidoqueen
  Strong wall with huge movepool. Its typing can be blessing and a curse.
• Ninetales
  Dangerous pokemon and yet it is hard countered by many walls.
• Solrock
  Solrock has a great niche. Being able to counter Fearow, Scyther, Gligar, sometimes Pinsir, sometimes Flareon, sometimes Nidoqueen makes Solrock quite valuabe in this meta. Some special attackers also don't have the coverage to hit Solrock. Something like HyperVoice+Psychic Girafarig would not break through Solrock. Unfortunetly, Solrock is an overly specialized wall that usually struggles against the rest of the tier.
• Tangela
  Amazing def wall and number 1 Kingler counter. Tangela imo is not as viable as it used to be because the implementation of life ball means we see more mixed pokemons and Tangela clearly struggles against Special Attackers.
• Piloswine
  Piloswine is an amazing wallbreaker and dual stab ice/ground is extremly threathening.
• Bellosom
  Bellosom is a great wall, but not as bulky as tangela and therefore struggles more against Kingler. However, it takes special attacks with more ease. Tangela can usually switch against Aggron, but Bellosom can't.

B rank

• Stantler
  Granbull outclasses Stantler completly even though Stantler is faster and could maybe sweep slow teams.
• Jumpluff
  If it wasn't for its lack of offensive presence and its x4 weakness to ice, Jumpluff would probably be A rank. Jumpluff is a fast support and a pseudo wall. Encore, Memento, Aromatherapy and Leech Seed can all be quite handy.
• Aggron
  God stats, but horrible typing. Aggron is quite easy to wall with Quagsire in the tier.
• Whiscash
  Really good typing, but outclassed by Quagsire atm. The implementation of Swift Choice Band and Life Ball hurts the viability of this DD user that can still break through a lot of teams.
• Likitung
  Cleric, wisher, bad curse user. Likitung is a great wall, but has no offensive presence.
• Muk
  Muk is slow but incredibly bulky. Unprepared teams could struggle against Substitute Muk or Curse Muk.
• Tropius
  Unique coverage that is hard to counter. It used to have enough bulk to set up DD. Unfortunetly, the implementation of Life Ball hurts Tropius bulk a lot.
• Claydol
  Claydol spins, checks Electric attackers and that's it.
• Diglett
  It can be deadly or useless. Diglett is a situational pokemon. It can RK a ton of threathening pokemons and can also help some pokemons set up thanks to Memento.

C rank

• Roselia
  Roselia can hardly switch on anything. If it wasn't for Spikes, it would most likely never be used.
• Rapidash
  Rapidash is fast and can threathens the opponent with Megahorn, Fire Blast, Low Kick, Double-Edge and HP grass. Unfortunetly, it doesn't do much unless it has a CB or Life Ball. Rapidash usually isn't able to come in play several times and suffers from 4mss if it chooses to get Morning Sun.
• Mantine
  Its unique typing in NU and its huge spdef stat allows Mantine to wall Flareon and Poliwrath.
• Octillery
  Quite unique coverage. It usually struggles because of its lack of speed and most walls can handle its hits. However, it can patch its speed weakness with twave and can break through some walls with mixed sets. Octillery requires a good amount of predict in order to be effective since it only has Surf stab.
• Cacturne
  Cacturne doesn't have much use outside of Spikes. It is usually difficult to teambuild with Cacturne since most people would prefer having a grass pokemon that is able to take hits from from Kingler and Cacturne really struggles in that department.
• Torkoal
  Its a bulky spinner that relies on Rest for recovery. It takes a lot of damage from Sludge Bomb Roselia and struggles handling a spin blocker like Misdreavus.

D rank

• Metang
  Thanks to its typing Metang can be quite useful. When paired with other walls, Metang can be extremly difficult to bring down if it got Rest.
• Shedinja
  Hardly viable right now since Spikes are everywhere, but Shedinja can still surprise from time to time.

 

Feel free to discuss these rankings. I haven't played much NU lately and could completly be wrong about some of the listed pokemons.

Edited July 30, 2016 by lamerb

[OrangeManiac]

4 hours ago, lamerb said:

 

• Xatu
  Early Bird, CM, OrangeManiac, gg.

 

Marry me gb.

 

Really quality analysis gb, I guess I'll address some Pokemon that I disagree with.

 

 

Absol: Meta-centralizing but is it S rank? I don't think so. Scarf Absol is scary but dreadful defenses and lack of a powerful spam STAB hinders it's sweeping. And Scarf Absol is the only moveset that makes any sense to me in this fast meta. Nice Psychic-trapper and this is the biggest meta-impact imo. I'd call it A+ rather.

 

Venomoth: Sorry gb, not A+. B+ at most, I would call it B. Alright sweeper, nice speed, nice movepool... but the stats and overlapping coverage make it less scary than you make it sound. There's just better spec. sweepers.

 

Kecleon: B/B+... B imo. Nice to have some special wall in the tier but I've noticed it being so easy to play around, mostly considering how wide coverages the top tier spec sweepers have. The Color Change can easily be used against Kecleon.

 

Claydol to B+/A. You seem to underrate it a little bit. Fairly nice coverage and variety with CM sweeping that is highly underrated, alright coverage, alright physical check... and one of the best spinners.

 

Bellossom could be rather A. It's presence in NU is really prevalent with the strong electric-types + Bold 252 HP 252 Def checks Kingler nicely as well as Whiscash and so on. I actually consider it more diverse version of a Tangela.

 

 

Other than these I agree with you.

 

[Liberalisme]

I don't agree with Nidoqueen at B+, should be A+ imo. Nidoqueen has an pretty good typing and base stat that is immune to toxic and twave. It also has an amazing movepool and having access to moonlight. Only a few pokemons (Bulky Psychic types like Grumpig and  Misd) can take a hit and can actually beat it.

 

[Liberalisme]

Also A rank for Quagsire is a bit high imo when everyone is using grass pokemons and special sweepers with hp grass. Should be B/B+ imo.

[KaynineXS]

1 hour ago, Liberalisme said:

Also A rank for Quagsire is a bit high imo when everyone is using grass pokemons and special sweepers with hp grass. Should be B/B+ imo.