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[Banned to BL2] Fearow


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#banthebird

 

 

EDIT: Although I think we are taking the power of Sneasel for granted as well.

 

Swords Dance, Faint Attack, Ice Punch, Brick Break is filthy. 

 

Meh, ignoring the fact that it really underperforms against Blastoise/Hitmontop- the tier's best phys walls

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Intimidate and x2 weakness instead of x4

Aggron has better resistances against Fearow (x4 in its stabs), better moveset, better options to play around and with the split the weakness means nothing against Fearow.

 

Rock head is an amazing ability to span cb double-edge from aggron, after switching in against fearow, a thing that Mawile can't do.

 

(i do agree, pure steel type is way better than rock/steel).

 

I think fearow will do fine.

 

Also Fearow isn't the fastest around anymore.

 

252+ SpA Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Fearow: 84-100 (60 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 144-171 (82.7 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

(Modest Crobat only needs 148 Evs to outspeed Jolly Fearow, with the HP investment it can take a cb double-edge and kill Fearow)

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Meh, ignoring the fact that it really underperforms against Blastoise/Hitmontop- the tier's best phys walls

 

I know it was really a more generalized statement, but Sneasel functions as an incredible revenge killer against Fearow, forcing it out and not letting it spam Drill Peck to its hearts content. Hitmontop is likely going to see less use with Blastoise showing up, but Toise certainly does a good job against the Sneasel. The good thing with Blastoise though is that it doesn't carry STAB Mach Punch to force Sneasel out.

 

+2 252 Atk Sneasel Faint Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 60-72 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasel: 60-72 (46.1 - 55.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO
 
That ugly Sneasel damage, but still, not bad to consider late game. 
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Again - no one uses these pokemon because they're for the most part unviable. 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 38-46 (29.9 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Shuckle is not unviable!! And like I said before, a Choice Band user stuck on Steel Wing is a complete bait.

 

Fearow is a top tier pokemon, no one is denying that. However, Fearow is unable to switch in on any of the "viable" pokemons of the tier:

Hitmontop | Ampharos | Scyther | Grumpig | Tangela (Ancient Power or HP Rock) | Armaldo | Sharpedo | Pinsir | Glalie | Ninetales | Electabuzz | Zangoose | MrMime | Mantine | Solrock | Golduck | Walrein | Lapras

All these pokemons can either 1 HKO or 2 HKO Fearow, which means Fearow is more a revenge killer than anything else.

 

Furthermore, a Choice Band user that always do the right move is obviously going to seem broken. In reality, I doubt Fearow is going to spam Steel Wing to prevent Rock Type from switching in. It all come down to skills; CB Fearow needs to choose the right move and its opponent needs to predict what move Fearow will be using.

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I don't think Fearow is banworthy, normal and flying stab are both resisted by rock or steel. It hits hard, but the base attack is laughable in comparison with many other offensive pokemon in the tier. Without choice band it does not hit hard enough, and being choice locked in a tier where you have 2 new viable ghost options, plenty of steel or rock types, I just can't see it being that good.

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I don't think Fearow is banworthy, normal and flying stab are both resisted by rock or steel. It hits hard, but the base attack is laughable in comparison with many other offensive pokemon in the tier. Without choice band it does not hit hard enough, and being choice locked in a tier where you have 2 new viable ghost options, plenty of steel or rock types, I just can't see it being that good.

 

It's really ironic for me to say - but you have play to feel the restriction that Fearow puts on your team to understand why it should go. Almost all of the ghost/rocks (as I keep repeating) are dead weight except for trying to wall it. 

 

Shuckle is not unviable!! And like I said before, a Choice Band user stuck on Steel Wing is a complete bait.

 

You should slap yourself for even debating with your inner self about posting that. If shuckle were viable, people would use it. (I also say this because Muk is pretty good, and Shuckle is the king of Muk baits)

 

To reiterate my point about Fearow forcing you to run unviable shit:

Solrock 13.3%

Aggron - 11%

Sableye - 8.33%

Shuckle - 2.22%

Mawile - 0.56%

Magcargo - 0.56%

 

The only ones you should *consider* running are Solrock, Sableye, and Aggron - the others are apparently below the cutoff of being NU - they'd be in PU or something if we had that. Also consider the fact that Sableye can't really do a lot to Fearow, it just has to recover and hope it doesn't get critted if it comes in on Drill Peck.

 

> TL;DR it's not fair to suggest people run a lot of these pokes specifically to deal with one pokemon, same Tyranitar argument again, gg

Edited by Robofiend
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The only ones you should *consider* running are Solrock, Sableye, and Aggron - the others are apparently below the cutoff of being NU - they'd be in PU or something if we had that. Also consider the fact that Sableye can't really do a lot to Fearow, it just has to recover and hope it doesn't get critted if it comes in on Drill Peck.

 

> TL;DR it's not fair to suggest people run a lot of these pokes specifically to deal with one pokemon, same Tyranitar argument again, gg

It is a really good argument, but the Fearow situation in NU is not as bad at the Tyranitar situtation in OU. Being forced to play Hitmontop in OU is not the same as being forced to play Solrock in NU: Hitmontop in OU is clearly less viable than Solrock in NU.

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It is a really good argument, but the Fearow situation in NU is not as bad at the Tyranitar situtation in OU. Being forced to play Hitmontop in OU is not the same as being forced to play Solrock in NU: Hitmontop in OU is clearly less viable than Solrock in NU.

 

Is it?

 

Solrock counters Pinsir, Scyther, Fearow, Gligar.. (Zangoose can still set up on the switch and low kick it to death) 

Hitmontop stops Tyranitar, Snorlax, Heracross, Blissey.. (note Heracross should be running Low Kick, which doesn't hit Top hard, and top can cover with AA)

 

Arguably, Hitmontop provides a lot more support against top OU pokes (assuming the "no ban" meta) than Solrock does. Although Solrock's access to instant healing is pretty cool, the fact that it dies to Iron Tail/Steel wing, while nothing in OU really uses Flying type attacks. I think they're very similar in the fact that both are effective against a small and specific subset of physical attackers, but on the whole aren't viable because other walls outclass them in their respective tiers.

 

Note: this isn't meant to be an argument for Hitmontop in OU but a comparison about how we've handled a similar problem before.

Edited by Robofiend
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Is it?

 

Solrock counters Pinsir, Scyther, Fearow, Gligar.. (Zangoose can still set up on the switch and low kick it to death) 

Hitmontop stops Tyranitar, Snorlax, Heracross, Blissey.. (note Heracross should be running Low Kick, which doesn't hit Top hard, and top can cover with AA)

 

Arguably, Hitmontop provides a lot more support against top OU pokes (assuming the "no ban" meta) than Solrock does. Although Solrock's access to instant healing is pretty cool, the fact that it dies to Iron Tail/Steel wing, while nothing in OU really uses Flying type attacks. I think they're very similar in the fact that both are effective against a small and specific subset of physical attackers, but on the whole aren't viable because other walls outclass them in their respective tiers.

 

Note: this isn't meant to be an argument for Hitmontop in OU but a comparison about how we've handled a similar problem before.

Agree to disagree I guess XD

 

We will probably have to wait for the next tournaments to see if whether or not Fearow is too much for NU.

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You should slap yourself for even debating with your inner self about posting that. If shuckle were viable, people would use it. (I also say this because Muk is pretty good, and Shuckle is the king of Muk baits)

 

To reiterate my point about Fearow forcing you to run unviable shit:

Solrock 13.3%

Aggron - 11%

Sableye - 8.33%

Shuckle - 2.22%

Mawile - 0.56%

Magcargo - 0.56%

 

well, some of those pokes could be unviable before the changes, with the changes they become more viable, using old usage statistics to say that they are unviable with new pokes around is kind of useless.

 

Also Armaldo is a decent check to Fearow besides being neutral to drill peck and it is sitting at 21.67% usage, why not add it to the list? Relicanth at 4.44% is also nice against Fearow, are you deliberate not using info just to make your point more valid? (I'm asking cause you could have missed it)

 

Fearow is just a setup bait to Lunatone, 252 HP/def with Calm Mind can laugh against Fearow (Maybe a new reign of Calm Mind Lunatone is coming?)

 

[spoiler]

inb4 some pursuit bs

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lunatone: 52-62 (29.3 - 35%) -- 7.5% chance to 3HKO

[/spoiler]

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Fearow is just a setup bait to Lunatone, 252 HP/def with Calm Mind can laugh against Fearow (Maybe a new reign of Calm Mind Lunatone is coming?)

 

[spoiler]

inb4 some pursuit bs

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lunatone: 52-62 (29.3 - 35%) -- 7.5% chance to 3HKO

[/spoiler]

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lunatone: 90-106 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

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well, some of those pokes could be unviable before the changes, with the changes they become more viable, using old usage statistics to say that they are unviable with new pokes around is kind of useless.

 

Also Armaldo is a decent check to Fearow besides being neutral to drill peck and it is sitting at 21.67% usage, why not add it to the list? Relicanth at 4.44% is also nice against Fearow, are you deliberate not using info just to make your point more valid? (I'm asking cause you could have missed it)

 

Fearow is just a setup bait to Lunatone, 252 HP/def with Calm Mind can laugh against Fearow (Maybe a new reign of Calm Mind Lunatone is coming?)

 

[spoiler]

inb4 some pursuit bs

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lunatone: 52-62 (29.3 - 35%) -- 7.5% chance to 3HKO

[/spoiler]

 

I actually missed Reli - my bad there. I'm a little skeptical about how useful it really is (or Lunatone, for that matter) to reiterate some old calcs that show exactly how stronk Fearow is against some uncommon rock/steels that aren't built specifically to deal with it.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 57-68 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metang: 60-71 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 48-57 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (fast CB)

 

Also, lol, Armaldo:

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
 
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Everything Robo is saying is totally correct imo.

I would join in on the debate but honestly, I'm not that great as saying what I think.

 

Would it be that ridicules to go hp grass on Fearow to deal with reli if he ever became a problem? 

Almost 2hko with no investment.

0- SpA Fearow Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Relicanth: 92-112 (44.4 - 54.1%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO

Edited by KaynineXL
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i really don't see a problem with fearow in NU, just run rock/steel type pokemon and fearow is having the hardest time in its life.

 

First of all its so hard to put fearow in play, and after its in play itll either pursuit or drill peck DE into a aggron that will force it out and have a free sub or a free hit. Seriously its not like fearow can take on multiple hits and NU is so fast paced. So many pokemons are faster then fearow in the tier making it hard to fearow to come into play safely. 

 

 

I think time should decide if this pokemon is deamed to op for NU

 

Also, why do you want to quick ban it? let the meta settle, its here for a reason right? it wasnt deamed worthy of NU by the stupid usage stats. So basically you can just ban pokes because you think its too op and keep the others because of statistics? I mean, thats not really usage stats right? we didnt even have 1 single NU tourney with Fearow in it and you want to ban it so fast. At least with Jynx's quick ban there was testing on the PTS to confirm it was too OP for the tier. IMO if you wanna keep using usage stats act like the stats matter and not how you think the tier should look like. 

 

Also why are we talking about Fearow when Zam in UU is the real problem hapenning right now? its been there for quite a while and now with no good sp def walls its even more of a problem. Go fix that before trying to fix something that hasnt been proven broken yet. 

 

Also when i say you im talking to the tier list council members no one in specific.

Edited by LionKIng
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Without switch in opportunities, Fearow's dominance will be limited. Sure, we can calc Steel Wing Banded damage all day, but the only powerful attacks coming from it are its STAB moves. I feel there are enough counters to it, saying pokemon like Haunter or Aggron are dead weight is just nonsense, when both are unforgiving behind a substitute. There are so many ways to stop banded pokemon, it's painful. Sure, in the old NU Fearow eventually got banned, but just look at the NU now. Rock/Steel types have been a must in teambuilding since forever just to prevent normal sweeps from happening. I think a quick ban on Fearow is rushed and would be a mistake, looking to see some official stats first.

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I'm never against some good old testing in an official or two, but honestly, I still believe Fearow is too strong offensively for this meta. We all understand that Fearow as a revenge killer can put some serious pressure on this tier. The viable Rock and Steel-types that can switch in on Fearow include Cradily, Armaldo, Solrock, and Aggron, unfortunately though three of those four are going to be taking some serious damage from CB STAB Drill Peck or by Steel Wing. Aggron has a unique opportunity here to gain some steam as it is fairly diverse and has enough bulk/speed to be beneficial in the NU tier despite its horrid weaknesses. 

 

Outside of that, pokemon like Relicanth, Metang, Lunatone, Golem, and any other random Rock or Steel-type you can drum up really will find a difficult time in this fast paced meta. HP Grass is on nearly every Ninetales which wipes the floor with all of those pokes. The common hard hitters in the tier are just too offensive for these guys to have much of an affect. They are either too squishy, hit too softly, or are too slow. 

 

Kabutops is quite viable right now, but unfortunately it doesn't have the bulk to realy stand up against Fearow as it can be two-shot by CB Double-Edge. 

 

And for the argument against Fearow's speed: Electrode, Sneasel, Crobat, Scyther, and Electabuzz are the only viable options right now that outspeed it. Rapidash and Kadabra both outspeed it, but both are having some difficulty in the tier do to their frailty or their lack of coverage. 

 

Idk, while I typically carry a Rock or Steel-type on my team to prevent Normal spam, Fearow just does a bit more damage than I'd like to feel comfortable leaving it in the tier. Aggron is the best option, but if Aggron is the only real option then that centralization is pretty gross. 

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I'm never against some good old testing in an official or two, but honestly, I still believe Fearow is too strong offensively for this meta. We all understand that Fearow as a revenge killer can put some serious pressure on this tier. The viable Rock and Steel-types that can switch in on Fearow include Cradily, Armaldo, Solrock, and Aggron, unfortunately though three of those four are going to be taking some serious damage from CB STAB Drill Peck or by Steel Wing. Aggron has a unique opportunity here to gain some steam as it is fairly diverse and has enough bulk/speed to be beneficial in the NU tier despite its horrid weaknesses. 

 

Outside of that, pokemon like Relicanth, Metang, Lunatone, Golem, and any other random Rock or Steel-type you can drum up really will find a difficult time in this fast paced meta. HP Grass is on nearly every Ninetales which wipes the floor with all of those pokes. The common hard hitters in the tier are just too offensive for these guys to have much of an affect. They are either too squishy, hit too softly, or are too slow. 

 

Kabutops is quite viable right now, but unfortunately it doesn't have the bulk to realy stand up against Fearow as it can be two-shot by CB Double-Edge. 

 

And for the argument against Fearow's speed: Electrode, Sneasel, Crobat, Scyther, and Electabuzz are the only viable options right now that outspeed it. Rapidash and Kadabra both outspeed it, but both are having some difficulty in the tier do to their frailty or their lack of coverage. 

 

Idk, while I typically carry a Rock or Steel-type on my team to prevent Normal spam, Fearow just does a bit more damage than I'd like to feel comfortable leaving it in the tier. Aggron is the best option, but if Aggron is the only real option then that centralization is pretty gross. 

Rapidash is pretty dope as a bander aswell as a sunny set up pokemon doe

 

and you forgot about golem also as a safe switch in even doe its hit by steel wing

also shuckle 

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I did read it, just felt like they were safe switch ins since you put so many safe switchs in up there that are destroyed by steel wing AND drill peck.

 

I discussed later that I don't find Golem very viable in the meta due to its terribad speed, since it requires bulk to be a truly safe switch in on Fearow. Shuckle I did miss, but again, Drill Peck isn't the friendliest thing. Rapidash is kind of borderline usage. Its only reliable CB-set includes Megahorn + Return to be effective, and CB non-stab Return is just bad. I love Rapidash, but I wish it had another option tbh. 

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I discussed later that I don't find Golem very viable in the meta due to its terribad speed, since it requires bulk to be a truly safe switch in on Fearow. Shuckle I did miss, but again, Drill Peck isn't the friendliest thing. Rapidash is kind of borderline usage. Its only reliable CB-set includes Megahorn + Return to be effective, and CB non-stab Return is just bad. I love Rapidash, but I wish it had another option tbh. 

it gets low kick, flame wheel stab wich isnt all that bad and the valuable quick attack. Imo its solid moves for a 105 base speed pokemon that can be viable into a special set also to mind fuck your opponents. 

 

Only reason i don't think fearow is banworthy is its lack of movepool. It has 1 movepool -+ 1 move that can switch and its pursuit OR steel wing. 

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it gets low kick, flame wheel stab wich isnt all that bad and the valuable quick attack. Imo its solid moves for a 105 base speed pokemon that can be viable into a special set also to mind fuck your opponents. 

 

Only reason i don't think fearow is banworthy is its lack of movepool. It has 1 movepool -+ 1 move that can switch and its pursuit OR steel wing. 

Hmm, I think Fearows movepool is alright honestly.

2 Hard hitting stabs, qa, pursuit, steel wing.

 

Sounds like a really good CB moveset coupled with with pretty good speed. Scary imo.

 

inb4 people start running hp ground to deal w/aggron. even with -sp att, it does like 70%. Cmon, I know you're all using your old HP ground fearows anyways

 

semi srs

I think it sounds pretty good.. I was talking about it.. 2hko the aggron with no invest, I'd totally do that lol

Edited by KaynineXL
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it gets low kick, flame wheel stab wich isnt all that bad and the valuable quick attack. Imo its solid moves for a 105 base speed pokemon that can be viable into a special set also to mind fuck your opponents. 

 

Only reason i don't think fearow is banworthy is its lack of movepool. It has 1 movepool -+ 1 move that can switch and its pursuit OR steel wing. 

 

Fearow doesn't really need much beyond what it already has though. In regards to Rapidash, I overlooked Low Kick. It is honestly the best counter to Rapidash and also has amazing speed for the tier. Unfortunately we do encounter some 4mss.

 

Megahorn, Return, QA, Obligatory Fire Attack. What do you drop?

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