[UU Discussion] Houndoom -Banned to BL1

[Tyrone]

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

Ever since we got UU back, Houndoom has exerted considerable pressure on the tier and on teambuilding. Good speed tier, mixed offensive presence, access to Pursuit (stab) and a very unique fire/dark typing are a deadly combination that the tier council suspects to be unhealthy.

 

The implementation of Life Ball is a true blessing for mixed attackers and Houndoom is no exception. Most pokemons can’t handle the common Crunch/Pursuit/Flamethrower/Hidden Power Grass set. Hidden Power Ice, Destiny Bond, Wil-O-Wisp, Superfang and Taunt are also viable options that can easily surprise unprepared opponents. Despite being significantly more powerful than before, Houndoom remains manageable: Miltank, Cradily, Altaria, Omastar, Quagsire, Shuckle and some gimmicks pokes  can either counter or check Houndoom effectively.

 

However, by becoming a dominant force of UU, Houndoom can no longer be seen as the bane of Psychic and Ghost types; Houndoom means their extinction. Unlike now, Houndoom didn’t use to have high usage, so it was possible to get away with playing Exeggutor, Misdreavus, Haunter, Xatu and others. This is no longer the case. Most people consider these pokemons as liabilities now. Beside Slowking, Solrock and Claydol, Psychic pokemons don’t have have coverage moves to hit Houndoom. Because Signal Beam is neutral against Fire/Dark typing, these pokemons have to rely on Hidden Power Ground or Fighting to hit Houndoom.

 

Houndoom has also incredible synergy with Scizor, one of the most centralizing powerhouse of the tier. Psychic/Ghost pokemons have to make a choice: they can play a Hidden Power that will be effective against Scizor or one that will be effective against Houndoom. They are basically always countered one way or another. Furthermore, Houndoom’s ability, Flash Fire, punishes severely the use of HP fire or any fire move for that matter.

 

For all these reasons, the Tier Council would like to get community input on Houndoom. Is Houndoom a right fit for UU?

 

Movesets:

 

Common Doom

Item: Life Orb

Ev: 252 atk | 252 speed | 4 spatk

Nature: Hasty

• Pursuit
• Crunch
• Flamethrower
• Hidden Power Grass

Sunnybeam Doom

Item: Life Orb

Ev: 252 spatk | 252 speed | 4 hp

Nature: Timid

• Sunny Day
• Solar Beam
• Fire Blast | Flamethrower
• Hidden Power Dark | Hidden Power Ice

 

~Thanks to gbwead for the write-up

[Blue]

Houndoom is a beast at the moment. Its too good to not use and can win you the match by itself. Only 2 pokemon counter it well, Blastoise and Magcargo which are not that viable in the tier. It appeard to be broken on paper and that got justified after a few tournaments. If someone needs confirmation, go watch my match vs Kayninexl  at UU marathon (round 3).

[YettoDie]

Impish / careful mixed doom

0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 8- Def Houndoom: 168-198 (112 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Impish

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 83-99 (42.1 - 50.2%)

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 51-61 (25.8 - 30.9%)

252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 27-31 (13.7 - 15.7%)

 

Careful

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 57-70 (28.9 - 35.5%)

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 38-44 (19.2 - 22.3%)

252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 36-43 (18.2 - 21.8%)

 

Careful timid doom

0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Houndoom: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%)

 

0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Houndoom in Sun: 72-86 (48 - 57.3%)

252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 122-146 (61.9 - 74.1%)

252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath in Sun: 69-82 (35 - 41.6%)

Edited May 25, 2016 by Appelsap

[DestructX]

imo it needs to be gone. combos like houndoom + breloom or houndoom + donphan have been broken way before life ball existed and idk why nothing has been done about it. and lets not forget about that annoying destiny bond possibility

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Appelsap said:

0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 8- Def Houndoom: 168-198 (112 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 83-99 (42.1 - 50.2%)

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 51-61 (25.8 - 30.9%)

252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 27-31 (13.7 - 15.7%)

 

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 57-70 (28.9 - 35.5%)

0 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 38-44 (19.2 - 22.3%)

252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 36-43 (18.2 - 21.8%)

 

 

0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Houndoom: 150-176 (100 - 117.3%)

 

0 Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Houndoom in Sun: 72-86 (48 - 57.3%)

252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 122-146 (61.9 - 74.1%)

252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath in Sun: 69-82 (35 - 41.6%)

Using gimmicky low tier pokes like Magcargo and afromentioned Poliwrath only show how powerful Houndoom is.

I would see Houndoom under few characteristics:

 

1. Unhealthy.

Houndoom limits teambuilding to an incredible degree. You won't see an Exeggutor anymore. Any psychic or ghost type is practically disabled from using in the tier because of Doom's presence. A lot of the pokes which are right now NU would become heavily viable in UU (see: Hypno, Grumpig, Xatu, MisD, probably Jynx), definietly making the UU a much more versatile tier without Houndoom being the most dominant and restrictive poke in the entire tier.

2. THE RAW POWER a'ka offensive uber

I'm kinda disappointed about not seeing a specs Doom as one of the possible sets. Modest specs Doom with HP Ground/ Fire Blast/ Sludge bomb/ Shadow Ball can 2hko almost entire tier with the right move, no special wall can defend itself from the assault of the doge, bar Altaria and maybe Miltank (which imo, should also get the boot but probably after Dodrio). 115 base special attack isn't anything to overlook:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 126-148 (59.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 117-138 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 124-146 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (DARK PULSE WHEN)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Houndoom Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Tentacruel: 102-120 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

3. Support

Houndoom's pursuit trapping ability granted by it's STAB pursuit and a very nice offensive typing that gives it a lot of switch-ins against common psychic/ ghost users allows the user to swiftly punch through enemy's defensive core without much risk, after which he can proceed to spam fighting STAB (hence Breloom and Hitmonlee usage) all over the place.

I know it's probably not a support Uber, but definietly unhealthy and potentially offensive uber.

[Argorok2017]

Here we go with only 1 fire type poke in UU again, this time being Ninetales lmao.

 

If Houndoom gets moved up to BL, you're gonna find it's useless just Scizor was when it got moved up, just saying on that aspect. Yes he is very strong and pretty centralizing but imo there are more counters to it than there was Scizor in the old UU.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Argorok2017
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[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Argorok2017 said:

Here we go with only 1 fire type poke in UU again, this time being Ninetales lmao

Wait until people will realise how powerful Flareon is.

[DaftCoolio]

42 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

However, by becoming a dominant force of UU, Houndoom can no longer be seen as the bane of Psychic and Ghost types; Houndoom means their extinction. Unlike now, Houndoom didn’t use to have high usage, so it was possible to get away with playing Exeggutor, Misdreavus, Haunter, Xatu and others. This is no longer the case.

this annoyed me. IMO the only common psychic type, pre life orb, was exeggutor and your acting like the other 3 (missy haunter and xatu) are no longer viable when the truth is they never were to begin with. Infact im pretty sure missy and xatu were NU. And even on top of that Haunter, once again IMO, is still viable, that specs sludge bomb hits like a fuckin truck and would scare most from switching in there dooms, even then scarf haunter can be a nasty surprise which can also catch out houndooms. if anything is slowing down haunter usage its ol'e scizor and its pesky steel typing.

 

42 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Beside Slowking, Solrock and Claydol, Psychic pokemons don’t have have coverage moves to hit Houndoom. Because Signal Beam is neutral against Fire/Dark typing, these pokemons have to rely on Hidden Power Ground or Fighting to hit Houndoom.

 

what other psychic types are you using? bearing in mind this is uu and not nu

Edited May 25, 2016 by DaftCoolio

[Argorok2017]

6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Wait until people will realise how powerful Flareon is.

Cant wait to see that lmao

[NikhilR]

5 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

this annoyed me. IMO the only common psychic type, pre life orb, was exeggutor and your acting like the other 3 (missy haunter and xatu) are no longer viable when the truth is they never were to begin with. Infact im pretty sure missy and xatu were NU. And even on top of that Haunter, once again IMO, is still viable, that specs sludge bomb hits like a fuckin truck and would scare most from switching in there dooms, even then scarf haunter can be a nasty surprise which can also catch out houndooms. if anything is slowing down haunter usage its ol'e scizor and its pesky steel typing.

Psychic types and Misd were quite viable before people realized how fool-proof Doom was when it came to stopping those things. People still used Missy but were a bit hesitant to use and I can assure you that Misd was very viable because a crunchless Kangaskhan couldn't break Misd's sub which allowed it to set up and sweep. If you watched Raaidn vs MisterHide PSL match of the last season, Raaidn set up a sweeping scenario but got crit. DoubleJ beat me in the Summer Ball twice with CM Grumpig but ever since Houndoom has seen the spotlight, the usage of Psychic types have dropped. If Houndoom goes, you can see things like Grumpig / Misd acting as cleric, Hypno to pass wishes etc.

[KaynineXL]

32 minutes ago, Bluejim said:

Houndoom is a beast at the moment. Its too good to not use and can win you the match by itself. Only 2 pokemon counter it well, Blastoise and Magcargo which are not that viable in the tier. It appeard to be broken on paper and that got justified after a few tournaments. If someone needs confirmation, go watch my match vs Kayninexl  at UU marathon (round 3).

I'm still haunted by that to this day. :(

10 minutes ago, Argorok2017 said:

Here we go with only 1 fire type poke in UU again, this time being Ninetales lmao.

 

If Houndoom gets moved up to BL, you're gonna find it's useless just Scizor was when it got moved up, just saying on that aspect. Yes he is very strong and pretty centralizing but imo there are more counters to it than there was Scizor in the old UU.

It doesn't matter how useless they would be in the tier above, if they're too strong in their current tier, then they need to go.

 

You don't just not move the OP Pokemon up because it can't work in the above tier, by that logic there would be no point in having a ban list, because almost all of them are not used.

[DoubleJ]

I think it's pretty obvious that Houndoom restricts team building in so many ways and even prevents special offense by pooping on threats like Haunter (rip speed ties for life), and all the Psychics. While it is really nice to check Sunny Exegg, I would not be opposed to banning this young pup to Borderline and freeing the plethora of Psychics that could soon dominate the tier. 

 

Grumpig when?

[pachima]

35 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I think it's pretty obvious that Houndoom restricts team building in so many ways and even prevents special offense by pooping on threats like Haunter (rip speed ties for life), and all the Psychics. While it is really nice to check Sunny Exegg, I would not be opposed to banning this young pup to Borderline and freeing the plethora of Psychics that could soon dominate the tier. 

 

Grumpig when?

its not a nice check to sunny exe. Life orb super effective hidden power can kill houndoom

[NikhilR]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

its not a nice check to sunny exe. Life orb super effective hidden power can kill houndoom

Most of them run hp fire for steel types, that's why. But solarbeam + SE orb can get doom. 

[gbwead]

Is Houndoom a problem for UU or is the move Pursuit a general problem? I am wondering. 

Houndoom would probably not be discussed today if it didn't have access to Pursuit. Scizor was ban from the previous UU tier mainly because it had access to Pursuit as well. Sneasel was dominating the previous NU tier with Pursuit even though Hitmontop had high usage. Are we looking at this the wrong way? 

 

I don't think Pursuit is complex banworthy, but I would like to hear what other people have to say about this.

Edited May 25, 2016 by lamerb

[NikhilR]

Just now, lamerb said:

Is Houndoom a problem for UU or is the move Pursuit a general problem? I am wondering. Houndoom would probably not be discussed today if it didn't have access to Pursuit. Scizor was ban from the previous UU tier mainly because it had access to Pursuit as well. Sneasel was dominating the previous NU tier with Pursuit even though Hitmontop had high usage. Are we looking at this the wrong way? 

 

I don't think Pursuit is complex banworthy, but I would like to hear what other people have to say about this.

Pursuit is the problem.

 

Scizor was cancerous on its own, because you were forced to run slowking or a bulky poke with access to a fire type move in order to not get swept by the SD set. Pursuit just added more to Scizor's unhealthiness.

[DrCraig]

Banning pursuit would be silly

I think its grasping at straws when you take away a solid offensive and defensive check like pursuit. Pursuit is more or less part of the game in my opinion.

I put this under the same category as banning Body Slam because Snorlax can paralyze pokemon with it and do decent damage. Pursuit and Body Slam complaints are parallel in the "now my pokemon is fucked" department but neither are actually a problem.

 

It is important to have trapping moves of this esque (which are not even guaranteed kills in other tiers btw) to wear down walls which keeps defense/stall in check while limiting the ability of fast sweepers to wreck a tier. I see OU as the result of a lack of trapping because of Dugtrio being kept in Ubers. The tier is run by sweepers with little to no checks and trapping would balance offensive approaches which are dominant.

 

Houndoom is the issue

 

Spoiler

may have rambled but banning pursuit is stupid<3

 

[KaynineXL]

Pursuit is the problem because, although there are switches for Houndoom, pursuit will always be able to cause damage and break away at a team. Does that mean complex banning it is even worth talking about? Absolutely not. Like Craig said, it's part of the game and if you take that away there would be things that would be terrified of pursuit just come in and do it's job and switch out, I feel like Jynx would be a prime example of this, which has absurd offence but is scared shitless of pursuit.

[Laz]

I'm surprised nobody mentionned its glass defense.

252+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 168-200 (112 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lazaro23

[DoubleJ]

4 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

I'm surprised nobody mentionned its glass defense.

252+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 168-200 (112 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

This is relevant at end-game, but Houndoom isn't staying in against a Breloom throughout the match unless it's a blatant sack or the Breloom is Choice-locked into something outside of Mach Punch. 

[Laz]

Never said it isn't broken, just stating facts that may affect its ban decision.
Beside, who would use cb nowadays instead of life orb, ight I may be wrong

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lazaro23

[Arimanius]

For me in my humble opinion houndoom is the problem and it's all because of its typing AND speed, it wouldn't hurt so much if it was like absol, ofc the pursuit stab hurts (it should since in this gen with no new moves is the only reason why u would run a dark type Pokemon) but the thing is it can switch in to so many things, for example people "could" replace doom with absol, but first it's slower, like a lot, haunter, missy, grumpig could destroy it if no scarf but if scarf then its damage output is really low and its damage would be damn low to other things and absol can't switch in so easily to exeggutor for example or other pokemons like doom can or work its sinergy with scizor cause flash fire. For ME the problem is doom now because of life orb, it just hurts too much almost any team that doesn't have a gimmick check to it

Edited May 26, 2016 by Arimanius

[DaftCoolio]

13 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Most of them run hp fire for steel types, that's why. But solarbeam + SE orb can get doom. 

This is the real issue. Psychic types and every other Pokemon in the tier is forced to run hidden power fire otherwise they get pooped on by Scizor.  If exeggutor was running Hidden Power Fighting/Ground/Rock switching Houndoom in wouldn't be such a simple and thoughtless process, because if they pursuit and egg stays in it can pick up the 2hko.  0 SpA Exeggutor Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 78-92 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Exeggutor is still viable just run hidden power fight/ground/rock, same goes for all those non viable psychic types like grumpig and missy. 

#banscizor

 

 

[suigin]

On 25/5/2016 at 9:07 AM, Argorok2017 said:

Here we go with only 1 fire type poke in UU again, this time being Ninetales lmao.

 

If Houndoom gets moved up to BL, you're gonna find it's useless just Scizor was when it got moved up, just saying on that aspect. Yes he is very strong and pretty centralizing but imo there are more counters to it than there was Scizor in the old UU.

I disagree, Scizor is pretty much a shittier Metagross, however Houndoom has a niche no other fire type in the tier can do, it can punish for using Will-O-Wisp and Hp fire.  First of all Psychics are back, they are the only type with a set up move that raises Spatk and with the new items they can make Chansey wince after a few boosts, The ideal counter would be a pursuit user who can also threaten them with a strong physical move, putting them in a lose/lose situation. Sound familiar? Well with the biggest usage rate in OU it should, Metagross sports a x4 resistance to Psychic, neutralizes Signal Beam damage, HP Fighting damage and does a ton of damage. Due to this all psychics need to use HP fire to deal with it and steel types in general which pretty much removes Metagross from the game. Enter Houndoom as a partner to Metagross, not only will it deal with HP Fire and Fire moves in general but it can switch into and punish Weezing using Will O Wisp putting it into a "switch or die" situation. It's also  the only thing that can trap and take down Gardevoir without fail, which is something neither Snorlax nor Metagross can do.

Now Houndoom won't be S tier in OU, nor A tier, it will probably be B+ tier. While Snorlax is probably a safer trapper and Charizard kinda does better in the special sweeper department it can fill a niche of pretty much neutralizing every psychic type except for Starmie and Slowbro while not being weak to burns.

 

tl;dr: he alright

 

[BurntZebra]

2 minutes ago, suigin said:

I disagree, Scizor is pretty much a shittier Metagross, however Houndoom has a niche no other fire type in the tier can do, it can punish for using Will-O-Wisp and Hp fire.  First of all Psychics are back, they are the only type with a set up move that raises Spatk and with the new items they can make Chansey wince after a few boosts, The ideal counter would be a pursuit user who can also threaten them with a strong physical move, putting them in a lose/lose situation. Sound familiar? Well with the biggest usage rate in OU it should, Metagross sports a x4 resistance to Psychic, neutralizes Signal Beam damage, HP Fighting damage and does a ton of damage. Due to this all psychics need to use HP fire to deal with it and steel types in general which pretty much removes Metagross from the game. Enter Houndoom as a partner to Metagross, not only will it deal with HP Fire and Fire moves in general but it can switch into and punish Weezing using Will O Wisp putting it into a "switch or die" situation. It's also  the only thing that can trap and take down Gardevoir without fail, which is something neither Snorlax nor Metagross can do.

Now Houndoom won't be S tier in OU, nor A tier, it will probably be B+ tier. While Snorlax is probably a safer trapper and Charizard kinda does better in the special sweeper department it can fill a niche of pretty much neutralizing every psychic type except for Starmie and Slowbro while not being weak to burns.

 

tl;dr: he alright

 

I mean you can use houndoom in OU right now, but it's not used much since its niche of trapping psychic/ghost types is pretty small in OU, as you have pointed out, the main two psychic types are slowbro and starmie, which are no good for houndoom. Viability of a UU pokemon in OU has no impact on its fate in UU either.